Poll: Israel: Is it's existence justified?
- Thread starter The Infamous Scamola
- Start date
Recommended Videos
You die. Russia is unconquerable. Now lets stop before we derail the thread.UNKNOWNINCOGNITO said:
Still, the Muslims took the land from somebody. If conquest gives no right to the land, then the Muslims have no claim to it either. If conquest DOES give rights to the land (it does IMO) then the Jews have successfully defended their take and now own it.The infamous SCAMola said:
Also, the Romans took Israel by conquest too. So if right of conquest gives no right to the land, then the Jews never lost it in the first place and were unjustly dispursed. But if conquest does grant rights, then the result is the same b/c the Jews used it to take it back!
So the conclusion is the same either way.
That's not to say the Muslim's desire to reconquer it is unfounded though. I don't think it's ever unjustified to take back land that someone took from you. The Muslim's DID own it by right of conquest, but they lost it in the same manner.
International restraits prevent then from retaking it, but them's the breaks. Life's not fair. It doesn't change the fact that Israel has taken it and now owns it by the same right of conquest by which the Muslim's themselves took it.
israel is just one giant concentration camp, we could have made a jewish state in France or Germany but instead we put them in the one place arabs would fight to the death to regain...Kukul said:
You are ignorant as well. Democracy is not the only working schematic for a government. Iran is doing well for being a country in the "axis of evil". Take a look at Saudi-Arabia, friend of the West, yet a failing Totalitarian state that's not worth anything.Powerman88 said:
The last democracies in the Middle-East all fell because of the West. The Iranian coup-d'etat and Iraq coup-d'etat during the cold wars.
You don't need to resort to extreme and desperate measures when you are armed to the teeth and aren't afraid to use it against your opponents like Israel do. For someone claiming to be not ignorant, please try harder.
Note: He may be a wacky president, but that doesn't mean all Iranians think the same, although i bet they all want to survive an imminent Israeli aggression.
Suicide bombing is ineffective against military targets. I guess they find it more logical (heh, even those damn teros have a sickening common sense unlike you) to go after civilians I guess. Then again, it's retribution for the civilians killed, which result in an never-ending cycle of violence. Damn it, this is the logic that have been told and re-told over a thousand times. Yet, those damn ignorant people still ask those same dumb questions. Funny.
At least I'm trying to understand how the world actually work, rather that looking through pink tinted glasses to look for rainbows and unicorns where there are none.
It seems to me the theory was good but the application very poor, and now we have a scenario where both sides hate the other unlike anything else I guess the modern world has seen for quite some time. The problem now is, now we've got Israel where it is, it isn't going anywhere, and both the Palestinians and Israel aren't going to stop attacking the other anytime soon, so I don't see the situation improving, nor resolving anytime soon.
So yes, it was justified, but its happened in a way that has produced a very unfavorable outcome for all.
So yes, it was justified, but its happened in a way that has produced a very unfavorable outcome for all.
Jewish people have a right to their own state, just not at a cost to the palestinian people. Who struck first and who done what where why and how is irrelevant. The persecution of an entire race is not justified. Both side's have good arguments for their cause, and while this may sound callous and ignorant, sometime's it take's absolute horror for there to be any change in the prevailing attitude of a people. The middle east is going to be a bloodbath before this is all over. I can see the making's of world war III.
Hi. The name is Leonard. I am almost 16, and sometimes I peek around this forum while waiting for Zero Punctuation to load. You have a wonderful community. Hope I will get absorbed into it quickly.
So, anyway: I live in Raanana, Israel. It's a beutiful city. Small, hardly a city by most standards, and most people are old and creepily religious. But it is a very calm and beutiful place, too. The swamp that was once here is all but gone. Our city has amazing gardens and parks, the education is considerd very good and there is almost no crime.
I lived in Raanana my whole life. In fact, so did my father and grandfather(His father came from Russia). So I am an Israeli in blood and in heart. That makes me the worst or the best guy to ask about this topic, depending on who you ask. By the way, today is Yom Ha'Shoa in Israel. (If you read this post, please send a short prayer to all the Holocaust victims. They deserve it). Next week is Yom Ha'Zikaron.(In which we remember the victims of the wars that plagued Israel since it's birth), so I decided to join this forum so that I can at least add something to this discussion that troubles us all. It is the right thing to do, I belive.
So you are asking what is my opinion about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict? I will be very honest with you: I think that nobody here, not me, not you, not even most politicians in or out of Israel know enugh about the subject to have an actual opinion. I have had the pleasure and the honour to meet a man who devoted his whole lift to the study of this very topic, yet even he said that he would never be able to form a good opinion because humans as a species, no matter how they hide it, are at their core biased, self serving assholes who only care about themselves and themselves and themselves.
He is very right. I live this conflict ever since I was born. My girlfriend, a girl that I cared about very much, was killed by a Palestinian rocket* a few weeks ago. My older brother, a man who I care very much about Will never be the same after the horrors he saw during his service. Yet I force myself not to hate the Pelestinians, because I know this hate will not be justified and will make me as bad as all the others around here who know nothing about the conflict and simply shout to be heard.
I am eqully disgusted and filled with pity when I see a six years old Palestinian boy in the news or the six years old orthodox boy from next door shouting that the [other side] are all evil bloodthirsty warmongering monsters and that they will gladly sacrafice their lives to destroy [other side].
I DO NOT think that the settlers\colonists\however they are called in your place(We call tham Mitnachalim) have any right to set up their rickity villages on Palestinian territory(Israel is doing it's best to demolish those, but they are zealous and fanatic and just settle somwhere else). I also DO NOT think Palestinians have the right to kidnap soldiers or send suicide bombers into shopping malls or bus stations befor they tried peacful negotiations(And don't tell me they did. When the solution was suggested that would give the two peoples an equal shar of the land(I actually think they were promised more but I don't remember clearly and I don't want to say anythink dangerous), the jews agreed, but the arabs just started making threats that eventually escalated into a very bloody war whose peorpse was TOTAL ANNIHILATION of the jewish people).
I do not think Tzahal(You call tham the IDF, right?) soldiers have the right to use innocent bystanders as meat shields or targate practice(They say they "suspected they might be carrying weapons", but I don't belive tham. They were just bloodthirsty fanatics no better than the suicide bombers and I am happy they were severely punished. I also do not think the Palestinians have any right to attack civialians all day with kasams(My aforementioned girlfriend had to the shelter ten times a day a few years ago). Note that I do not pity the Palestinian civilians killed in bombing runs: I don't know if you heard about it, but Tzahal makes it a practice of alwayes sending warning to Palestinian leaders befor performing one. The fact that the civilians are not evacuated immediately proves either that said leaders are stuiped, powerless, or twisted to the point of sacraficing dozens of innocent Palestinians for the sake of making Israel look bad. Also note that we Tzahal makes utmost effort to avoid collateral damage when bombing, even if it makes their job a thousands times more difficult. Unlike, say, one country whose name I can't quite recall who naplamed the shit out of another country some forty years ago. They also used chemical weapons, but that is another thing already.
I do not think we have a right to own Jerusalem. I do not think anybody has. If it was up to me I would say the place needs to be blown the fuck up to solve many many many problems. But it is not up to me.
If there was a peacful resolution available it would be great. But their is not. Both sides are to stubborn and both hate the other side so unconditionally that this would likely never happen.
Israel alwayes was, is now, and will likely alwayes be at a state of war. It is a shame, but we simply have no other place to go. This is our home. This is where we were born. This is the land of our ancestors and this of of our children. The arabics can, of course, say the exact same and nobody would ever be able to prove he is right.
You must understand: Today is the day where our whole country goes silent in remembrance of the Holocaust. Today is the day where we are most aware of the fact that Israel is our only home, our only sanctuary in a world that hates us, whether there is a reason or ther is not. And we will protect this haven no matter what, because we truly can't go anywhere else.
We jews went through hell. Some of us, less than a half of us, survived, albeit with scars to their very souls. They came here following dreams and prophecies thousands of years old, expacting to find peace. They never did. Critisize Israel at your leisure, but please, don't deny us the only thing we have.
P.S. My younger brother, four years old asked me just a minuete ago what I was doing. I said that I am telling people in far away lands that Israel is not evil. He was quite and then he said "Please tell tham that we are not evil. We do not like to kill. It is sad.". How very touching.
P.P.S. Don't listen to what the media tells you. The media is alwayes biased. This war saw the burned corpses of Israeli and Palestinian babies. Most networks will only show you one, quietly forgetting about the other). It is the way media works. It is a shame.
* She lived in Sderot. Not a good idea at all. By the way, my ex girlfriend died of brain cancer, and the one before her in a car accident. Someome up there wants me to stay alone, I susspose.
Good evening, everyone.
Leonard
So, anyway: I live in Raanana, Israel. It's a beutiful city. Small, hardly a city by most standards, and most people are old and creepily religious. But it is a very calm and beutiful place, too. The swamp that was once here is all but gone. Our city has amazing gardens and parks, the education is considerd very good and there is almost no crime.
I lived in Raanana my whole life. In fact, so did my father and grandfather(His father came from Russia). So I am an Israeli in blood and in heart. That makes me the worst or the best guy to ask about this topic, depending on who you ask. By the way, today is Yom Ha'Shoa in Israel. (If you read this post, please send a short prayer to all the Holocaust victims. They deserve it). Next week is Yom Ha'Zikaron.(In which we remember the victims of the wars that plagued Israel since it's birth), so I decided to join this forum so that I can at least add something to this discussion that troubles us all. It is the right thing to do, I belive.
So you are asking what is my opinion about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict? I will be very honest with you: I think that nobody here, not me, not you, not even most politicians in or out of Israel know enugh about the subject to have an actual opinion. I have had the pleasure and the honour to meet a man who devoted his whole lift to the study of this very topic, yet even he said that he would never be able to form a good opinion because humans as a species, no matter how they hide it, are at their core biased, self serving assholes who only care about themselves and themselves and themselves.
He is very right. I live this conflict ever since I was born. My girlfriend, a girl that I cared about very much, was killed by a Palestinian rocket* a few weeks ago. My older brother, a man who I care very much about Will never be the same after the horrors he saw during his service. Yet I force myself not to hate the Pelestinians, because I know this hate will not be justified and will make me as bad as all the others around here who know nothing about the conflict and simply shout to be heard.
I am eqully disgusted and filled with pity when I see a six years old Palestinian boy in the news or the six years old orthodox boy from next door shouting that the [other side] are all evil bloodthirsty warmongering monsters and that they will gladly sacrafice their lives to destroy [other side].
I DO NOT think that the settlers\colonists\however they are called in your place(We call tham Mitnachalim) have any right to set up their rickity villages on Palestinian territory(Israel is doing it's best to demolish those, but they are zealous and fanatic and just settle somwhere else). I also DO NOT think Palestinians have the right to kidnap soldiers or send suicide bombers into shopping malls or bus stations befor they tried peacful negotiations(And don't tell me they did. When the solution was suggested that would give the two peoples an equal shar of the land(I actually think they were promised more but I don't remember clearly and I don't want to say anythink dangerous), the jews agreed, but the arabs just started making threats that eventually escalated into a very bloody war whose peorpse was TOTAL ANNIHILATION of the jewish people).
I do not think Tzahal(You call tham the IDF, right?) soldiers have the right to use innocent bystanders as meat shields or targate practice(They say they "suspected they might be carrying weapons", but I don't belive tham. They were just bloodthirsty fanatics no better than the suicide bombers and I am happy they were severely punished. I also do not think the Palestinians have any right to attack civialians all day with kasams(My aforementioned girlfriend had to the shelter ten times a day a few years ago). Note that I do not pity the Palestinian civilians killed in bombing runs: I don't know if you heard about it, but Tzahal makes it a practice of alwayes sending warning to Palestinian leaders befor performing one. The fact that the civilians are not evacuated immediately proves either that said leaders are stuiped, powerless, or twisted to the point of sacraficing dozens of innocent Palestinians for the sake of making Israel look bad. Also note that we Tzahal makes utmost effort to avoid collateral damage when bombing, even if it makes their job a thousands times more difficult. Unlike, say, one country whose name I can't quite recall who naplamed the shit out of another country some forty years ago. They also used chemical weapons, but that is another thing already.
I do not think we have a right to own Jerusalem. I do not think anybody has. If it was up to me I would say the place needs to be blown the fuck up to solve many many many problems. But it is not up to me.
If there was a peacful resolution available it would be great. But their is not. Both sides are to stubborn and both hate the other side so unconditionally that this would likely never happen.
Israel alwayes was, is now, and will likely alwayes be at a state of war. It is a shame, but we simply have no other place to go. This is our home. This is where we were born. This is the land of our ancestors and this of of our children. The arabics can, of course, say the exact same and nobody would ever be able to prove he is right.
You must understand: Today is the day where our whole country goes silent in remembrance of the Holocaust. Today is the day where we are most aware of the fact that Israel is our only home, our only sanctuary in a world that hates us, whether there is a reason or ther is not. And we will protect this haven no matter what, because we truly can't go anywhere else.
We jews went through hell. Some of us, less than a half of us, survived, albeit with scars to their very souls. They came here following dreams and prophecies thousands of years old, expacting to find peace. They never did. Critisize Israel at your leisure, but please, don't deny us the only thing we have.
P.S. My younger brother, four years old asked me just a minuete ago what I was doing. I said that I am telling people in far away lands that Israel is not evil. He was quite and then he said "Please tell tham that we are not evil. We do not like to kill. It is sad.". How very touching.
P.P.S. Don't listen to what the media tells you. The media is alwayes biased. This war saw the burned corpses of Israeli and Palestinian babies. Most networks will only show you one, quietly forgetting about the other). It is the way media works. It is a shame.
* She lived in Sderot. Not a good idea at all. By the way, my ex girlfriend died of brain cancer, and the one before her in a car accident. Someome up there wants me to stay alone, I susspose.
Good evening, everyone.
Leonard
The British didnt have the right to create Israel as the land wasn't theirs to give away. Its too late now though.
The only way to solve the problem would be to melt the entire area to beaten glass, because neither side will accept that the other side has any legitimacy, Israel is too paranoid about its complete distruction to agree to any settlement or to trust Palastine, and the Palastinians wont stop till the land they believe is theirs is returned.
As for the Jews of Europe being passed around by 50 countries, think about it, this is right after world war 2, Europe is totally fucked and half of it belongs to the USSR who dont like Jews anyway. The governments of europe had millions of their own refugees to try and sort out so its no wonder the Jews were shunted from place to place. I'm not trying to excuse it, but just to explain.
The only way to solve the problem would be to melt the entire area to beaten glass, because neither side will accept that the other side has any legitimacy, Israel is too paranoid about its complete distruction to agree to any settlement or to trust Palastine, and the Palastinians wont stop till the land they believe is theirs is returned.
As for the Jews of Europe being passed around by 50 countries, think about it, this is right after world war 2, Europe is totally fucked and half of it belongs to the USSR who dont like Jews anyway. The governments of europe had millions of their own refugees to try and sort out so its no wonder the Jews were shunted from place to place. I'm not trying to excuse it, but just to explain.
It should have been created, but they just maybe coulda thought of a better spot for it. Y'know...somewhere not in the middle of people who hate them.
then you can say that about the USA. were the english people here first? or were the indians here first? i think it was the indians land therefore any american including myself is not an american and we dont belong here nor are we deserving it.UNKNOWNINCOGNITO said: