Poll: Israel: Is it's existence justified?

[Skeleon]

Yes, it was right to create Israel.
But the way in which it was created was wrong.

 

[Oneirius]

Note that I do not pity the Palestinian civilians killed in bombing runs: I don't know if you heard about it, but Tzahal makes it a practice of alwayes sending warning to Palestinian leaders befor performing one. The fact that the civilians are not evacuated immediately proves either that said leaders are stuiped, powerless, or twisted to the point of sacraficing dozens of innocent Palestinians for the sake of making Israel look bad.

Well this was where I stopped reading. Frankly I lost you there. I truely doubt a warning before a bombing run would be given. This is simply insane from a military standpoint. It would allow the enemy to set up defenses not at, but beyond their (known) position or simply move away, as they would surely notice all the civilians being evacuated. In such a case, wouldn't the only real damage done be the collateral damage, as "minor" as it may be?
How long do the palestinians get to evacuate anyway?

Also, even if the palestinian government fails to evacuate why no pity for people who most likely don't have anything to do with the conflict? Perhaps they are forced to stay, you know, against their will, or they do not wish to leave because their livelyhood is there and they can't make it without it (example; a shop owned by a family or perhaps cattle).

I simply cannot understand you throw your pity for inoocent people or children at the very least out the window because of something the "Tzahal" claims.

Yes it's insane. Yes, sometimes it allows terrorists to escape. Just like I said, it makes military operations very difficult, when they are not impossible. It is the price the IDF(I see you do not like the name "Tzahal") pays, and that our whole country pays because we attempt to minimize unnessecary casualties in this war. Israel has all the means to practically erase Gaza from the face of the earth. The last war proved it. But it will not solve any problem. If we do it, than we are not much better then the terrorists who shoot the rockets. I know it is a very ironic statement, because both sides make it, but we are only fighting in self defense. We are not killing people for fun or because we have a point to prove. That would only increase the hate. If there is a terrorist leader, we will assasinate him, but we will not just shoot people on the street. If a building was converted to a weapon factory, we will bomb it, but we will not bomb farmland or hospitals or schools unless it is absolutly nessecary.(During the last war some particuarly twisted terrorists hid inside such buildings for this very reason). If people die in the process, we will cry for them.
But we are neither stuiped nor naive. If we do nothing, we are doomed. So we do. We have no other choice. "No other land, even when the earth is burning", like they say in the old song.
It is the sad truth of our existance.

 

[Dmatix]

Hi. The name is Leonard. I am almost 16, and sometimes I peek around this forum while waiting for Zero Punctuation to load. You have a wonderful community. Hope I will get absorbed into it quickly.

So, anyway: I live in Raanana, Israel. It's a beutiful city. Small, hardly a city by most standards, and most people are old and creepily religious. But it is a very calm and beutiful place, too. The swamp that was once here is all but gone. Our city has amazing gardens and parks, the education is considerd very good and there is almost no crime.
I lived in Raanana my whole life. In fact, so did my father and grandfather(His father came from Russia). So I am an Israeli in blood and in heart. That makes me the worst or the best guy to ask about this topic, depending on who you ask. By the way, today is Yom Ha'Shoa in Israel. (If you read this post, please send a short prayer to all the Holocaust victims. They deserve it). Next week is Yom Ha'Zikaron.(In which we remember the victims of the wars that plagued Israel since it's birth), so I decided to join this forum so that I can at least add something to this discussion that troubles us all. It is the right thing to do, I belive.

So you are asking what is my opinion about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict? I will be very honest with you: I think that nobody here, not me, not you, not even most politicians in or out of Israel know enugh about the subject to have an actual opinion. I have had the pleasure and the honour to meet a man who devoted his whole lift to the study of this very topic, yet even he said that he would never be able to form a good opinion because humans as a species, no matter how they hide it, are at their core biased, self serving assholes who only care about themselves and themselves and themselves.
He is very right. I live this conflict ever since I was born. My girlfriend, a girl that I cared about very much, was killed by a Palestinian rocket* a few weeks ago. My older brother, a man who I care very much about Will never be the same after the horrors he saw during his service. Yet I force myself not to hate the Pelestinians, because I know this hate will not be justified and will make me as bad as all the others around here who know nothing about the conflict and simply shout to be heard.

I am eqully disgusted and filled with pity when I see a six years old Palestinian boy in the news or the six years old orthodox boy from next door shouting that the [other side] are all evil bloodthirsty warmongering monsters and that they will gladly sacrafice their lives to destroy [other side].

I DO NOT think that the settlers\colonists\however they are called in your place(We call tham Mitnachalim) have any right to set up their rickity villages on Palestinian territory(Israel is doing it's best to demolish those, but they are zealous and fanatic and just settle somwhere else). I also DO NOT think Palestinians have the right to kidnap soldiers or send suicide bombers into shopping malls or bus stations befor they tried peacful negotiations(And don't tell me they did. When the solution was suggested that would give the two peoples an equal shar of the land(I actually think they were promised more but I don't remember clearly and I don't want to say anythink dangerous), the jews agreed, but the arabs just started making threats that eventually escalated into a very bloody war whose peorpse was TOTAL ANNIHILATION of the jewish people).

I do not think Tzahal(You call tham the IDF, right?) soldiers have the right to use innocent bystanders as meat shields or targate practice(They say they "suspected they might be carrying weapons", but I don't belive tham. They were just bloodthirsty fanatics no better than the suicide bombers and I am happy they were severely punished. I also do not think the Palestinians have any right to attack civialians all day with kasams(My aforementioned girlfriend had to the shelter ten times a day a few years ago). Note that I do not pity the Palestinian civilians killed in bombing runs: I don't know if you heard about it, but Tzahal makes it a practice of alwayes sending warning to Palestinian leaders befor performing one. The fact that the civilians are not evacuated immediately proves either that said leaders are stuiped, powerless, or twisted to the point of sacraficing dozens of innocent Palestinians for the sake of making Israel look bad. Also note that we Tzahal makes utmost effort to avoid collateral damage when bombing, even if it makes their job a thousands times more difficult. Unlike, say, one country whose name I can't quite recall who naplamed the shit out of another country some forty years ago. They also used chemical weapons, but that is another thing already.

I do not think we have a right to own Jerusalem. I do not think anybody has. If it was up to me I would say the place needs to be blown the fuck up to solve many many many problems. But it is not up to me.

If there was a peacful resolution available it would be great. But their is not. Both sides are to stubborn and both hate the other side so unconditionally that this would likely never happen.

Israel alwayes was, is now, and will likely alwayes be at a state of war. It is a shame, but we simply have no other place to go. This is our home. This is where we were born. This is the land of our ancestors and this of of our children. The arabics can, of course, say the exact same and nobody would ever be able to prove he is right.

You must understand: Today is the day where our whole country goes silent in remembrance of the Holocaust. Today is the day where we are most aware of the fact that Israel is our only home, our only sanctuary in a world that hates us, whether there is a reason or ther is not. And we will protect this haven no matter what, because we truly can't go anywhere else.
We jews went through hell. Some of us, less than a half of us, survived, albeit with scars to their very souls. They came here following dreams and prophecies thousands of years old, expacting to find peace. They never did. Critisize Israel at your leisure, but please, don't deny us the only thing we have.

P.S. My younger brother, four years old asked me just a minuete ago what I was doing. I said that I am telling people in far away lands that Israel is not evil. He was quite and then he said "Please tell tham that we are not evil. We do not like to kill. It is sad.". How very touching.

P.P.S. Don't listen to what the media tells you. The media is alwayes biased. This war saw the burned corpses of Israeli and Palestinian babies. Most networks will only show you one, quietly forgetting about the other). It is the way media works. It is a shame.

* She lived in Sderot. Not a good idea at all. By the way, my ex girlfriend died of brain cancer, and the one before her in a car accident. Someome up there wants me to stay alone, I susspose.



Good evening, everyone.
Leonard

Very well written. As a corporal in the IDF myself, I agree with every word (obviously). Next week I'll be serving as an honor guard in a YomHazikron ceremony, and your losses, as well as my own( I lost a few school mates in bombings and battles , will be on my mind.

 

[Oopsie]

Well first off, I simply put the name "Tzahal" down like this because I am not familiar with that term, but I do not necessarily dislike the name.

I really dislike the war, for many reasons. From what the media is feeding me here I see a lot more palestinian casualties than israelian ones though. Bombing civilians, from any point of view, should be considered idiotic. I understand missile bombardments on Isreal must be stopped. I also understand that applies vice-versa. By bombing civilians as it is, you are creating more recuits for "the cause" which appears to be killing the people on the other side of the wall every time you bomb something. This applies for both sides.
If only both extremes could come together. Like break down that wall. And perhaps even just share the land, but I digress.

I have a more personal question for you, my apologies if it offends you ( it was certainly not meant that way);
Would you like your child (if you ever had one) to grow up in a society which is filled with fear for bombings and hate while you and your faith try and teach the child tolerance, foregiveness and love for all?

 

[ElephantGuts]

Well the land was technically never there's in the first place

Was the current location more or less the epitome of stupid places to put them? Yes.

Alright I found these two statements just within the first few posts, and I'm sure they've came up repeatedly during the discussion, so let me respond to and correct them.

1. Simply wrong. If you have any idea about the history regarding the subject on which you are speaking, you will know that the land (whether it is called Israel, Judea, or Palestine) was the ancient homeland of the Jewish people, and they lived there for thousands of years until they were kicked out by the Romans. So quite the opposite of them never owning it; they were the original owners until they were kicked out by force.

2. This is directed to all people saying that Palestine was a stupid place for them to go and that they would have been better off in Texas or somewhere. Now, think about what you're saying for a second. What's the difference between Texas, or anywhere else, and Palestine? See my original point. It's their ancient homeland! Why the hell would Jews want to live in Texas? They wouldn't and no one would expect them to. They wanted to re establish their ancient homeland in Palestine, no matter the cost.

I've got much more regarding this topic but I've got to go, so I just wanted to clarify those points. I'll be back later with my intimidating combination of superior logic and common sense.

 

[Dmatix]

Well first off, I simply put the name "Tzahal" down like this because I am not familiar with that term, but I do not necessarily dislike the name.

I really dislike the war, for many reasons. From what the media is feeding me here I see a lot more palestinian casualties than israelian ones though. Bombing civilians, from any point of view, should be considered idiotic. I understand missile bombardments on Isreal must be stopped. I also understand that applies vice-versa. By bombing civilians as it is, you are creating more recuits for "the cause" which appears to be killing the people on the other side of the wall every time you bomb something. This applies for both sides.
If only both extremes could come together. Like break down that wall. And perhaps even just share the land, but I digress.

I have a more personal question for you, my apologies if it offends you ( it was certainly not meant that way);
Would you like your child (if you ever had one) to grow up in a society which is filled with fear for bombings and hate while you and your faith try and teach the child tolerance, foregiveness and love for all?

To tell you the truth, most Israeli's do grow up and live under constant fear of bombings and missile attacks(I know I did). That's why I joined the army, to defend my family, my friends, my country and myself. I do however agree that not all of the things we do are right, and that the settlers should be removed to behind the Green Line ( by the way, the Hebrew word "Mitnahalim" has a negative connotation, meaning people who are in a land with no rights to it, as opposed to the natural word " Mityashvim" used otherwise).

 

[BubbleGumSnareDrum]

It's hard to argue they have a right to the place when an entire country was already there when they moved in, took over the government, and then waged war on everyone around them. Being f***ed over does not mean you can spread the hate around by doing it to other people.

This. The Israeli military and government are terrorists just the same as Hamas.

 

[Oneirius]

If and when I will have children, than yes, I would not want them to grow up in fear. I would want them to have the tolerance and love that we don't have, and that our parants didn't have. Every generation wants this. But if the war goes long enugh for me to see my children drawn into it, than I will try not to hide the truth from them.
When the day comes, I will join the IDF. When the day comes, I want my children to join the IDF. Peace is our ultimate goal, but until there is peace, we will not sit here doing nothing while border towns are being destroyed by rockets or soldiers are being held captives by god knows who.
And yes, if it was possible for the two peoples to live together in Israel and cooperate, it would be the best end of the story. In the meanwhile both sides, or at least the people who actually make a differance, are two stubborn and grounded in their belives to give up a grain of sand to the other side. It's childish and stuiped. "If we can't have it, than nobody should!". We are wasting precious, precious resources, effort and lives on a stuiped war whose cause nobody really knows.
Let's just hope that our children will grow to have the wisdom that we lack.

 

[Captain_Caveman]

Actually its a different thing entirely. Being Jewish is an inheritted thing, its more than religion. We are an identifiable tribe or people, we just lost our homeland a couple thousand years ago. We are unique in that we are pretty much the only displaced people that didn't disappear.

Well the majority of people who identify themselves as Jewish dont really practice Judaism anymore. Many, if not the majority, are also half or mostly of European or Russian decent because of the exodus.

So Jews are less a people and more a religion now, imho.

No, that's not correct. What it is to be jewish goes far beyond religion. That's one reason why we are pretty much the only religion that talks people out of joining, and at the same time if your great grandmother was jewish you are, even if neither you nor your parents or grandparents praticed (or even if you practiced another religion). We have elements of both religion and tribe in what we are.

I've studied a lot of religions, mainly because the private school my parents forced me to go to made it mandatory. I don't see a whole lot great about any of them. Sure some seem like they'd be healthier for society than others (islam is kinda scary imo, no offense to any muslims). But this whole "ancient people" or "chosen people" thing seems like it's more of an ego trip than anything. imho. We're all the same, it's only the way we perceive.

I suspect that your religious teaching about judism did not come from a jewish source. The ancient people is just a fact, the culture can be traced back a long time. It doesn't make it better or worse, just old.

The chosen people really isn't an ego thing if by that you think it means we believe we are superior. That's not it. Unlike many religions we believe that god loves most people and that those without religion or of differing religions can be as beloved of god just as we can. In fact, we think less is demanded of them than is demanded of us. What we were chosen for was to carry a particular burden, and it has at times been a very heavy one. That burden includes a message, a message that was adopted at least in part by the Christians, the Baha'i, and some others. Many of our messages are imbedded in current "western" law and thinking. We continue to carry the burden of the messages that we think lead to holiness.

There are those in every religion (or non religion for that matter) who are elitist about it, but that isn't what is meant by "chosen" if you ask most Jewish scholars.

It wasn't religious teaching, the classes were history classes basically. The school had no affiliation, the teacher was agnostic. It covered everything from Paganism, Zoroastrianism, Buddhism, Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Shinto, Taoism/Confucianism, & Hinduism.

I understand what you're saying but it really doesn't change anything I've said. It's still all in your head, imho. Perception. Every "people" have been around just as long on this planet. And laws of justice have as well. The only real diff is the distribution of written lists, instead of assumed morality.

OT though, you may want to inform Whitney Houston & Bobby Brown about no way in except being born. LOL

 

[magicmonkeybars]

If jews have there own "land" that makes them a race right? So christians are a race to because they have the vaticaan

Actually its a different thing entirely. Being Jewish is an inheritted thing, its more than religion. We are an identifiable tribe or people, we just lost our homeland a couple thousand years ago. We are unique in that we are pretty much the only displaced people that didn't disappear.

and that is why you can't find a single country in any time who hasn't hated you for it.
if only the "jews"understood the real problem you might not have to live in fear for all of your lives.

The problem is you don't like the truth of our heritage or the problem is that we didn't disappear?

don't you see the west funding both sides of the conflict ?
don't you see the west gathering the jews to one place, a place where conflict was inevitable?
what truth does your "heritage" have ?

 

[Bulletinmybrain]

Well the land was technically never there's in the first place
i think it should not have been created although the jews did need somewhere to go

there's a famous saying that actually is said in many religions

"The Jews are cursed to never have a land of their own"

Not being oiffensive or rascist or trying to say that jews are bad but simply stating something that seems very intresting

Overall i think we should come down to one thing , Were they there first ?

And the US is technically on stolen land from the Natives, and you know what they did? They slaughtered every last one of them! Hell, I have less of a right to live on this land than Israelis because they're continually fighting for it right now!

But I really don't want to delve into this topic, it'll just turn out ugly. I will agree however that Israel was not exactly established in the best of places in the world...

America needs to stop policing the world. If Israel is meant to survive, it will on its own power. We've given it enough help.

We need to let the Middle East fight their never-ending moronic war.

Remember the good old days, when Middle Easterners were too busy in their attempts to exterminate Jews to plan terrorist attacks on the United States? I miss those days.

Trying to stop their fighting is pointless. Just let them drag each other down into the shit. Eventually they'll just nuke each other. Problem solved.

Yeah, yeah, I'm heartless. I'm just starting to doubt whether people from that region can be reasoned with. Can you reason with people so brainwashed that they destroy themselves for the ideals that have been shoved in their heads by their leaders? Yeah, yeah, the ones who blow themselves up are extremists, but look around you. Do you see any Catholic suicide bombers blowing up the local Walmart for Jesus? No, you don't. For whatever reason, they're much more violent than we are.

No you aren't heartless. You just have a curious case of "pants-on-head-retardism"

You know what? Actual jewish people should get a badge for the shit they have put up with. Native Americans got one for getting their land raped and pillaged from them.. ONCE. Jewish people have been taking it up the ass since creation.

 

[HentMas]

I generally don´t agree with Judaism as a religion and I believe that they should had being put in another place to begin with.

but well, that´s just my opinion.

 

[Jumplion]

Lets be fair here. That was done 200 odd years ago. Not only did Europeans know very little about the existence Native Americans, who were separate, non-unified groups of tribes and families. They were not a single country under a single government who had been promised the land as a reward for overthrowing their Ottoman oppressors.

And it happened when colonialism was still an accepted and widely encouraged practice.
Slavery was an accepted practice in America back then, does it mean modern day slavers can use that as an excuse to continue the trade in todays world?

I agree that the whole issue is far, far, far from black and white, but the fact remains that Israel was established in a time when the Zionists should have known better.

I agree, it was quite a stupid place to put Israel at the time.

But after seeing a video on various American Presidents at school today, some (Specifically Andrew Jackson) of them treated the Native Americans as sub-beings. Infact, Andrew Jackson specifically, stated that "The only good Indian is a dead one". I'll go so far as to say that their hatred for Indians at the time was likeliness to Hitler's hate for Jews!

This was less than 200 years ago, and there's no justification of how Americans slaughtered thousands of Native Americans for their own Manifest Destiny, that it was their "god given right" to expand coast to coast. This is coming from an American, so I (hopefully) know what I'm talking about.

But the point I was trying to grasp at is that people didn't ***** about American earning, that's right, earning their right to live on this land. It was done in a horrible way, no doubt about it, but nobody ever says that "America shouldn't be here because they're on stolen land!" because that is basically true. But we fought for it and we got the land, that's how war works.

It should be no different with Israel right now. While they were voted on to establish the nation, the Israelis have fought and bloodied their way to keep themselves here for 60+ years. They faced off enemies from all directions in the 6 day war for God's sake, and they survived! And they crushed them is six freakin' days!!

I don't want to get too far into this debate, but what I'm saying is that Israel more than deserves to be on the map. It doesn't matter if they "stole" it from the Palestinians, it doesn't matter if they lose the next war, Israel is continually fighting for the land and that alone means that they have the right to be there. Until one or the other is wiped out, Israel is on the map and they continue to bloody the holy ground just so us Jews can call something officially home.

I just really hope I don't get dragged into this debate...

 

[Perryman93]

Yes, yes I do think so. After all palestinian terrorists started attacking Israel and then everyone blames Israel. Yes I know it might not always have been the palesinians.
Also they made a badass tank. And they won the Six Day War.

Israel belonged to palestinians first, britain and america set up the state of israel in the 50s because we felt sorry for what happened during the holocaust !! the palestinians only believe that they are fighting for the freedom to be ruled by someone of their own religion! personally i am on the palestinians side! and no i am NOT anti semitic i just feel that the palestinians have a stronger, and historically older claim to the territory!!!

 

[specilarcher]

mmm its englands fault. They sent the Jews there... and said the Arabs could have it too... OFC it wasent helped by America shuttin their boarders... And the UN partition plan? Stupid! Before that there was no war, just riots and street fights. And... paletsine attacked israel but ffs they are pressured! There land was nicked! Blame england.Palestine, make war on england not Israel!! Then england kills you... or just accept israel as a state and start peace talks!!!

 

[teisjm]

I think whoever gave isreal to the jews after WW2 made a huge mistake, because they forgot to take into acocunt that the land was already occupied by the palestinians.