Poll: Japanese w/ Subs vs. Dub: Which is better for an anime? [W/ Digimon clips!]

[SantoUno]

I've been religiously watching Digimon Adventure for the past month on Netflix, both to rewatch a beloved children's show of mine and to watch the original Japanese version with an adult perspective. When I started getting my friends to watch it as well, they wanted to watch the English dubbed version, Digimon: Digital Monsters, that aired on FoxKids back in 1999 and 2000. I advised against this, but we saw it in English anyway.

Seeing a couple of the English episodes after viewing the entire Season 1 of Digimon Adventure, the subtle and not-so-subtle differences dazzled me. Despite being aimed at kids, the English version had terrible voice acting, even for a kids' show. Another obvious one but which still deserves mention is that the English version also changes the wording and phrasing of several lines which mention more mature subjects such as death, reincarnation, religion, and even presenting bodily waste to de-emphasize them. Another difference I barely caught is that since the show was aimed to children, the FoxKids version seriously put on the "kid" gloves and altered some scenes simply for the sake of making it more presentable to children.

Because of the points above, I perceived the English versions as having reduced the quality and/or integrity of the show. The clear example of this is in Episode 45, where Yamato (Matt) confronts Taichi and forces him and Agumon to fight in order to discover his purpose for being in the group and shed light on his inner conflicts with Taichi. The Japanese w/ English subs presents it beautifully, with Yamato challenging Joe's plead for peace by asking who or what exactly is obligating their group specifically to work as a team, then Taichi dismisses Yamato's attitude as simply being rash and not being a team player. Then when Taichi continues throwing punches he states that everyone doesn't realize that he is doing it to honor the sacrifices of the Digimon that helped them along the way. A while later Mimi cannot bear the conflict anymore and walks away to be alone, stating "What will they gain by fighting?"


However, in the English Dub, Matt simply comes across as a dick, with dialogue such as "Yeah like I wanna be boss of this sorry group. If any of you brainiacs wanna take charge be my guest. I say we should just take care of ourselves." Tai gracefully replies with "Matt just has a bug up his nose". Then when he warns Matt not to provoke him, Matt taunts him with "Oh I'm scared". Then freaking MetalGarurumon threatens Tai with "Excuse me? And what are you going to do about it?" WarGreymon and him fight, then Tai approches Matt, and in the Japanese version Matt points out that Tai finally wants to fight, but here in English he pointlessly taunts him and calls him chicken. Then when Mimi walks away, she expresses absolute childish disappointment, saying "I'm just gonna sit here and stare at the flowers until everybody starts getting along!" instead of asking the important question in the Japanese version. Sora herself even displays some unneeded snarkiness by saying "Oh, like that's gonna help." The English version pretty much butchered the excellent dialogue and character development and portrayed most of the otherwise well-acted children as assholes. During the fight, Hikari approaches the sparkling light that has been following her, and asks it in the most childish tone "Hi, my name is Kari. Please tell me your name. Do you want to be friends?" Gatomon and Izzy see this, and Izzy says with such an unbelievable way of speaking "She appears to be conversing with herself." Wow, did the person who wrote the script really think kids talk like that?


Another striking example is Episode 47, in which

Spoiler

Puppetmon/Pinochimon is killed by MetalGarurumon in an instant

In the Japanese version, there is no music for this sequence before, during, and after his death. His wooden cross hits the ground with a striking sound effect. When he is dying he asks "Jureimon, what do those kids have that I don't have?" in a fading voice, then cue the haunting harpsichord music as his giant mecha-house puppet collapses and he fades away into the wind. In the English version, generic orchestral music is playing during his rant before his death, and once he is laying on the ground, soft, uplifting music plays, and after he asks his question, a random, stupid voice yells out "Friends!". Cue the triumphant music once again for the mecha-house collapsing. The striking sound of the cross hitting the floor is replaced with a generic slash sound (Audible Sharpness [http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AudibleSharpness]). So in a nutshell, the English version kills all the suspense from the lack of music and shifts the tone of this important sequence to generically triumphant AND removes the open to interpretation nature of Puppetmon's unanswered question by throwing in that ridiculous "Friends!" for the kids, implying that children are too naive to try and figure it out themselves.

Spoiler

So all this pretty much left me convinced that almost all English dubs of anime or Japanese young children's shows pretty much remove all the subtleties and ambiguity in favor of presenting a diluted, more accessible show to ensure that it will go over well with the networks (or however you want to label them). I know many of you will argue "Well DUH, it's a show for American kids. Of course they will do these things." However, I will say that this is not as acceptable as it seems, because it gives me the implication that viewers would rather see a more laid back, accessible show that one left intact from its native country that may or may not have incredible writing and is presented well. Do American kids really have to be tucked away from foreign culture by replacing Buddhist sutra chant with "Bakemon lose your power!"?

So overall, I absolutely think that original Japanese versions with English subs present the animated show more faithfully and with more integrity. I wrote for two hours trying to prove that, and I hope that some of you could also share your thoughts.

Maybe I'll provide another example that I found on Youtube. I didn't think the contrast was nearly as strong as with Digimon, but it is there:


TL;DR - Which do you think presents an anime better? The original Japanese w/ English subs or an English or localization dub?

 

[[Kira Must Die]]

I don't have the vile hatred for dubs that a lot of people have. I think both have their pros and cons. I tend to lean more towards dubs because, for one, I find most of them to be just fine, most of them sound like they're giving about the same amount of effort as the original VAs, and the ones that are bad I usually still find entertaining, or not bad enough to take away from the story. I don't give in to the idea that English VAs don't put effort into their performance, as a lot of them seems to really love their job, it's just some are less skilled than others (There's also depends on the director. I've heard good VAs do some poor performance due to piss poor directing.) Second, Japanese audience don't have to read subtitles to understand their animes, so to me watching an anime with subtitles, despite having the original voice actors, isn't exactly the "pure" way of watching an anime. And third, subtitles, at least to me, adds a barrier between me and the scene. I'd much rather hear the lines and feel the emotion rather than read the lines on-screen with gibberish I can't understand and am probably gonna block out while I read the subtitles. I do watch some anime raw, without subtitles, and enjoy them much more than with subtitles, but only because I know the show well enough that I know what they're saying and I know what is going on. So I find dubs and subs to be kinda even, as one has the original VAs but in a language I can't understand and with subtitles, and the other I can understand and I don't have to read, but it's with different VAs and a different language, but I always tend to lean more towards dubs.

Also, dubs like Digimon or the 4kids stuff never really happen these days, and even then they're usually kids anime aimed at children. You never see dubs like Card Captors or the 4kids One Piece these days, anymore. I mean, when was the last time you heard anything from 4kids? Or at least anything that caused a big fuss? Most dubs these days are just straight translations of the original, with maybe a few localized slang terms or jokes thrown in. A lot of that is largely due to how the anime has moved almost exclusively to the DVD market, as opposed to airing on TV. And even the anime aired on TV are aimed at an older audience, rather than children, so there's no real need to "Americanize" them. Some dub studios even consult the original studios. I'm also of the mentality that dub actors don't have to give the exact same performance as the original, or even have to live up to the original's expectations. I mean, why should they? I also don't think you should even compare the two, as I find the idea of comparing voice overs of two complete different languages, especially when one is a language you don't speak or understand, to be pointless.

 

[Voulan]

I hate when people hate every dub ever made simply because it's not in Japanese. I prefer dubs, simply because I can understand the tone and emotion far better (sarcasm, for instance). Because I'm used to it as well, hearing the characters speak in English has a much nicer pacing and is more pleasant to listen to. And I can pick voices apart, and not have to read constantly or be subject to poor fan subs.

People tend to get quite elitist over which is preferred, so it's nice to see at least one other person who likes dubs better.

EDIT: In terms of which presents them better, dubs tend to Americanise for their new audience, so naturally the subs are better in that respect since they're more true to its original intent. Still prefer dubs though.

 

[madwarper]

It depends. There are quite a few dub voice actors that sound worse than nails on chalkboard, so sub is better in that regard. However, watching a sub is much more involved than listening to dubs and possible doing other things.

Correct answer: Read the manga.

 

[SantoUno]

]Giant Snip

All good points there. Nice to read from the perspective of someone who prefers dubs. However this...

I'm also of the mentality that dub actors don't have to give the exact same performance as the original, or even have to live up to the original's expectations. I mean, why should they? I also don't think you should even compare the two, as I find the idea of comparing voice overs of two complete different languages, especially when one is a language you don't speak or understand, to be pointless.

...didn't resonate with me. Why should they? To uphold the quality of the original show, perhaps? Pay respect to the source material? Those kinds of questions seem to me like they would come from voice actors who do not care about the media they are voice acting for, kind of like how video games used to have terrible voice acting in abundance possibly because they had to pull in VA's from other mediums since VG VAing wasn't a full-fledged profession yet.

Also I find it odd that you find the idea of comparing voice overs of two different languages pointless after I had just written a long post which makes certain points concerning the quality of Japanese VAing over American VAing. Sure I don't speak Japanese at all, but that doesn't mean I can't compare it with the American VAing simply due to the fact that I can still observe certain differences in quality stemming from the dialogue.

 

[Asita]

So overall, I absolutely think that original Japanese versions with English subs present the animated show more faithfully and with more integrity. I wrote for two hours trying to prove that, and I hope that some of you could also share your thoughts.

That really really depends on the dubs and subs involved. Bearing in mind that most subs you're likely to find are fan works, the quality varies wildly. Using Death Note as a case in point, we get this little gem as a prime example of how NOT to subtitle (there is no point in preserving the Japanese word for 'plan' there). On the flip side, even that egregious example is far superior to the 4Kids dub of One Piece (which included excessive sloppy editing). And then of course there's the matter of dubs done right in cases like Baccano![footnote]Suffice to say that actually being American kinda helps when it comes to portraying American characters.[/footnote] and Cowboy Bebop (With Steve Blum getting special mention for absolutely nailing the character of Spike Spiegel). Again, it's very dependent on what work you're looking at.

 

[Casual Shinji]

Being Dutch I was raised with subtitles so I tend to go for subs.

There are a few exceptions ofcourse. The dubs in Samurai Pizza Cats made that show, and there's a load of old kids shows like Saban's The Adventures of Pinocchio, and Maple Town that I don't mind dubbed.

But yeah, I don't watch anime dubbed for the same reason I don't watch Pixar or live-action movies dubbed. I still have nightmares of that one dubbed clip I saw of Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon.

 

[[Kira Must Die]]

...didn't resonate with me. Why should they? To uphold the quality of the original show, perhaps? Pay respect to the source material? Those kinds of questions seem to me like they would come from voice actors who do not care about the media they are voice acting for, kind of like how video games used to have terrible voice acting in abundance possibly because they had to pull in VA's from other mediums since VG VAing wasn't a full-fledged profession yet.

Also I find it odd that you find the idea of comparing voice overs of two different languages pointless after I had just written a long post which makes certain points concerning the quality of Japanese VAing over American VAing. Sure I don't speak Japanese at all, but that doesn't mean I can't compare it with the American VAing simply due to the fact that I can still observe certain differences in quality stemming from the dialogue.

I mean that I prefer VAs that do their own thing rather than just copy or imitate the original VA. I think you're paying more respect to the original VA by performing the role in your own way (that fit the character, of course) rather than just mimicking another. And I'm not saying that I hate it when someone does mimic the original VA, some dub actors/actresses can pull that off well, I just prefer it when an actor/actress do their own thing.

And I say that comparing the two languages is pointless to me because I feel it's more appropriate to judge English voice work with how traditional English voice work is done. I also think it's kinda unfair, as I prefer to judge a dub by its own merits then by the standards set by another.

 

[BazaarFawkes]

Honestly... there is no right answer. It's entirely subjective and asking which is better is simply inviting people to say something stupid.

I personally like subs more, for my own reasons, but I also believe dubs are equally as good if done right.
I think with your example of Digimon does show how bad it can be, but you also have to realise these shows are mainly catered towards children. When I look back at Power Rangers, especially the current one, I can't help but facepalm on so many scenes, but as a kid watching this, it was awesome. Children aren't going to analyse voice tones or budget or complain about frames (unless it's noticable). If it was cool and entertaining then it's a good show (I don't know if all kids are like that, but looking back I definitely was like this).

On the actual subject of Dubs "vs" Subs, like I've said, both are equally good if done right.
I've watched Eureka Seven in dub and shed tears at certain moments. Same with Trigun and School Rumble.

I mean that I prefer VAs that do their own thing rather than just copy or imitate the original VA. I think you're paying more respect to the original VA by performing the role in your own way (that fit the character, of course) rather than just mimicking another. And I'm not saying that I hate it when someone does mimic the original VA, some dub actors/actresses can pull that off well, I just prefer it when an actor/actress do their own thing.

And I say that comparing the two languages is pointless to me because I feel it's more appropriate to judge English voice work with how traditional English voice work is done. I also think it's kinda unfair, as I prefer to judge a dub by its own merits then by the standards set by another.

You're quite right in that regard. It's always better for VAs to do things in their own way.
For me, I always look at how compatible the VA's voices are and how it's done. One of my general dislikes (please don't forget, personal preference) about dubs is not often the VAs doing it wrong, it's just that their voices don't match with the character.
When Fate Zero was announced for released in English with a trailer, the very first thing I look for is how Archer and Rider sounded like. If the voices don't match with Archer's prideful and strong personality or Rider's charisma then I'm afraid you lost me on this one. Of course, other characters are equally important but I simply focus on these two.
Another one is Future Diary. Palencia's voice, in particular, I think just does not suit Yuno at all.

Judging a dub definitely should (for the most part) be on it's own merits. I think the only time it'll be appropriate to compare the two different versions is when you're looking at certain aspects being done right. Using my example above, I'll say that Murata's voice represents Yuno as a polarizing character a lot more than Brina and that's generally how it should be as far as discussion goes, rational and reasonable.
Went a tad off-topic but the point I was trying to make is that it'll definitely be better to judge how well a dub is done by someone who watched the dub first. I say this since after I watched Gurren Lagann in Japanese, I cannot watch it in English. Likewise after watching Eureka Seven in English, I didn't really want to watch it in Japanese.
I agree with you completely that comparing the two languages is pointless afterall they're completely different languages.

 

[Yuno Gasai]

In terms of style, I'd say that I prefer Japanese dubs over their English counterparts any day. There are certain noises and quirks that Japanese VAs are capable of doing/making that their English counterparts just can't quite replicate.

Outside of that, I tend to prefer English dubs to subtitles. English dubs give me the freedom to glance away from the screen for a few seconds without needing to pause first, and/or panic that I might be missing important parts of the story.

 

[Lieju]

I always prefer the original language version on everything, and since I can understand Japanese somewhat (enough to follow what's going on unless it's very dialogue-heavy, like Death Note), it's subs for me.

 

[Dwarfman]

Voting for subs out of sheer principle here, however I would like to point out that there are some anime out there with great dubbed voice acting. Some that immediately spring to mind are - Trigun, Cowboy Bebop, G.I.T.S Stand Alone Complex, Wolf's Rain - Although I did prefer the sub for that one - Monster, Death Note, Bubblegum Crisis, Black Lagoon...

That being said a lot of the dubbed anime for kids - and I'm gonna single out Naruto for this - are just plain terrible. I remember watching an episode on cable once. I was at a hotel it had the appropriate channel, naruto was on and I thought what the hell - Yes I watch Naruto, get over yourselves. I had seen the episode several times in the past and quite liked it and the overall arc as well. Sitting back watching I suddenly realised just how crap it was. The only difference? Really. REALLY bad voice acting and appalling script translation from Japanese to English. Just disgusting to watch. Dragon Ball Z was on after and although I don't watch DBZ it's English voice acting was terrible as well.

 

[Mr_Spanky]

SUUUUUUUUUUBS! No but seriously. I don't know so much what it's like in anime but I'm a big martial arts fan and watching Chinese, Japanese, Korean, Thai films dubbed into English can be pretty painful.

For me it's simply that dubbing never seems to quite capture the soul of the performance and the entire film loses something as a result. I get really drawn into movies with that authentic feeling - and the dubs take that authenticity and poo on it.

That's just imho though

 

[Denamic]

Not only are dubs usually of far lower quality, they're also often changed to match the length of the speech animation. Usually to the detriment of the intended meaning, and sometimes even changing meaning entirely. Also, the cutesy high pitched voices that the Japanese like do not transfer well into English. It's usually ear-rendingly bad. Rare exceptions like Sandy Fox's version of Flonne exists, of course.

So, subs every time.

 

[Joccaren]

Whilst it does depend on the anime, 90% of the time its subs.
Anything is better than dubs for a lot of anime. Even watching it raw and not understanding a word. The number of times I've watched an anime subbed, then for whatever reason gone to watch it dubbed, and ended up hating it is ridiculous.

Part of it is bad voice acting. This is, quite often, a staple of dubs. A lot of voice actors really make me cringe. Not all, thankfully. A number of them get the characters right, but there are a lot of them that misinterpret the emotion of a line, or hold back on displaying emotion, or overdo the emotion, or try to do the Japanese tone for that emotion in English... It just hurts to listen to. The good ones make me cry because its nice to find people who can do it properly.

Most of it for me is the changed content of the anime. They don't simply take the subs and voice them over, which would work and be amazing a lot of the time [Sometimes a few things might need changing, but not a lot], they often find it necessary to re-write entire characters and scenes for some god forsaken reason. This is what killed the Panty and Stocking dub for me. So many lines were changed it completely changed how I saw each character, and that killed it for me. I can stand bad voice acting. I can't stand a rewrite of the anime.

One set of dubs that I haven't minded has been Evangelion, where what little I've seen of the dubs has been pretty decent. For the most part the lines seem to be the same as the subs [Granted its been awhile since I watched the subs so I don't remember perfectly], and the voice acting isn't too bad either. Also had the pleasure of meeting Asuka's voice actor at one point which was pretty cool.

There are shows where the dubs are ok, but generally I won't risk it. Too many bad dubs that, unless by accident or highly recommended, I'll stick to subs, and most of the time I'll prefer the subs anyway. I don't see people's problems with phasing out the emotion from the speech so I can read the lines instead, I can do 2-3 things at once and read the subs, listen to the voice actor's emotion, and watch the scene unfolding too. I don't find it hard to tell characters apart, and these days I'm even starting to understand what is being said sometimes without reading the dubs 'cause I've heard and read that often. So, my vote is for subs.

 

[Kyrian007]

Dubs first for me. Chances are if an Anime doesn't impress me dubbed, I won't like it subbed either (even in those cases where my subbie friends say...

Spoiler

"oh, it totally changes the story.

You're just not 'getting it' with the english dubs."

In my experience, that has never been true. Not once that I've ever found. If I like an Anime I'll check out the subbed version on a repeat view.

 

[Kaymish]

Dubs every time if i cared enough about my movies and tv to take notice of any subtext i might want to read the subs but Dubs every time just for ease of watching

 

[MeisterKleister]

There are cases when I don't mind dubs and cases where I do.
But usually I prefer subs. I think both subs and dubs can vary greatly in quality, though good English dubs seem to be harder to find.
Another reason why I prefer the Japanese voice acting is probably because I've been learning Japanese in my free time.

I remember one case where the anime was all about style, but reading the subs distracted from the awesome visuals. In cases like these, I prefer dubs, even if they are bad.
For those curious, I'm talking about Red Line [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9fhQVMzlC0].

 

[Baron von Blitztank]

For me it kind of depends on the anime I'm watching really. For an action-based show, e.g Cowboy Bebop, Darker Than Black, Black Lagoon, Desert Punk, then I tend to prefer the dub. I'm guessing this is because action-based shows have more of a visual spectacle than others, and I'd rather be watching the action than watching the subtitles. Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann is the sole exception to this since I think the Japanese VA's are much better at delivering lines of hot-blooded manliness.

If I'm watching a show that's a comedy or a romance show, e.g Azumanga Daioh, The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya, Lucky Star, then I'll tend to watch it subbed.