Poll: Jedi Elves

[LaoJim]

I went to watch the Hobbit Part 2 last night. Generally I enjoyed the film and had a good time, but there was one issue with I had with it that I think is spoiling a lot of recent action movies for me; the problem of 'overpowered heroes'.

I'll try to explain what I mean with no spoilers.

Many of the heroes, but especially the two main elvish characters in the movie are ridiculously effective fighters. In battle they are cutting down Orcs at the rate of about two every second, leaping around performing incredible acrobatics and shooting arrows through two enemies at the same time. The only time the orcs seem to provide any threat at all, is at the end of each sequence to allow the other Elf to shoot an arrow out of the mid-air just before it hits elf #2. While some of this is enjoyable it undermines the whole plot, as the Orcs simply don't feel like any threat. The Dwarves are not much better as they kick huge amounts of arse right up to the point where the plot requires they are captured, when they give up without any kind of fight against opponents who are presumably much less dangerous that a regiment of Orcs.

The point is that in the last decade, a combination of special-effects and the influence of Hong Kong cinema has made this sort of superhuman fighting the standard for movies. And it makes sense for certain movies. Superman and other superheroes are supposed to be super. Jedi's were supposed to have amazing reflexes and powers. I know that Elves and Dwarves are supposed to be good fighters, and Tolkien himself has them kill a huge number of enemies in the battle sequences in the LoTR books (I forget the exact tally). I just think the swordplay/archery in the movie should feel at least slightly related to what might be possible in real life.

So my question is; What kind of action sequences do you prefer? I know to some extent it will depend on the movie, but generally in which direction is your preference?

 

[Johnny Novgorod]

Well like you said at the very end it really depends on the movie/genre and the tone they're going for. I want my Jackie Chan moviesto be as awesome as they can get because that's what they're all about. But generally I prefer the kind of action that cuts enemies some slack and there's some dramatic weight to every confrontation as opposed to simply an endless kung fu show.

 

[Hero of Lime]

I don't mind over the top action, but I find it boring when the main character(s) can wipe out entire rooms full of bad guys with ease. Especially the classic "main character with sword kills a bunch of guys with guns" trope. Common in anime and the like. It goes from over the top, to just plain stupid.

Same thing with villains, it's very off putting to have a villain cut down lots of regular people, only to have the main character beat them in a one-on-one battle.

Ironically, fights that are made to be fast and crazy make me very bored to watch them. For example, just look at the newer Red vs. Blue battles, boring over the top battles that once you've seen once, you've seen them all. They used to resemble actual fighting you would see in Halo games, then they tossed that out for extreme action.

 

[J.McMillen]

Given that most elves have lived decades longer than most orcs, they've had plenty of time to practice and train.

 

[FalloutJack]

I'll take a third option, thank you, and shame on you for not providing one.

 

[Drizzitdude]

It really depends on the movie in my eyes. Elves have always been presented as highly athletic and agile fighters with superhuman reflexes so to me some things make sense and allow a certain degree of suspension of disbelief. Dwarves are supposed to be short and physically sturdy and strong so it makes sense for them to be able to drop orcs like crazy as well giving their entire race is comprised mostly of fighter and miners.

The way I see its like this

Physical strength

Dwarves > Uruk-hai/Greater Orcs > Men > Elves > Goblins/Lesser Orcs > Hobbits

Agility

Elves > Goblins/Lesser Orcs > Men > Hobbits > Uruk-Hai/Great Orcs > Dwarves

Fighting Skill
Elves > Men > Dwarves > Uruk-Hai > Hobbits > Goblins/Lesser Orcs

Mental capacity/wisdom

Elves > Men > Dwarves > Hobbits > Uruk-Hai/Greater Orcs > Goblins/Lesser Orcs

Population
Goblins/Lesser Orcs > Uruk-Hai/Greater Orcs > Men > Elves > Hobbits > Dwarves? (Dwarven population is constantly portrayed or described as being dwindling with settlements being destroyed by dragons or forces of evil so I can only assume they are a rare race outside Erebor)

 

[Lovely Mixture]

To me it doesn't matter what type of action it is, it matters if the action serves a purpose or not.
Which I guess puts it more in the realistic side.

To use the Hobbit 2 as an example.


Elves save/capture dwarves from Spiders - Good action, it shows how the elves are skillful in their environment and it moves the story along.
Barrel Scene - Good action, it's fun and it adds excitement to the Dwarves escaping the Elves and Orcs.

Tauriel and Legolas fighting Orcs in Laketown - bad action, we already know that the elves are quick and skillful and it doesn't add tension, we didn't need more than 5 minutes of footage showing that they were helping the three dwarves.

 

[guitarsniper]

for me, the question is whether the fighting style is one that could realistically have developed. A combat style developed for incredibly agile and quick elves and a fighting style developed for strong, tough, and short-reached dwarves will not be the same.

That being said, even if every fighter you have is incredibly agile (elves), combat styles will still try to be as efficient as possible, so leaping around is fine, as long as it obviously serves a purpose. "look what I can do" is not a purpose.

 

[Pessimismus]

Honestly, it really depends for me. I can enjoy both a tremendous amount but the more serious a story is, the more serious I'd want my action to be. There are exceptions here and there, of course. As long as it supports the medium appropriately I'm likely to enjoy it. Give me Pacific Rim with giant robots wailing on giant monsters with oil tankers and I'll enjoy it just as much as I would something more serious and 'realistic' like the one-on-one combat from shows like Game of Thrones.

Both can get the cavemanchild in me roaring with excitement, but since I feel obligated to pick one, I think I'll go with the over-the-top action, as it is a lot more likely to have me laughing like a psychopath.

 

[idarkphoenixi]

I feel like the whole "super-elf" thing in The Hobbit was mostly just fan-service for people wanting their Legolas back.

In the LOTR trilogy he was good, sure, but we saw in Helms Deep that elves are just as physically mortal as a man.

The main two reasons I don't like these Hobbit movies are:


1) WAY too much cgi, honestly this is supposed to be Peter Jackson, that guy knew the importance of practical effects, he's the one who fought to rely on them so much in LOTR. Either he got lazy or the studio was forcing him to do it because of the 3D. It honestly doesn't matter, I no longer feel the as involved as I did before because nothing seems real. When I look at a computerised image, unless it's added in with some subtlety, I KNOW it's not real and that's all I can ever tell myself.

2) Even for a Tolkien movie, The Hobbit is way too disconnected from reality. Nobody seems to acknowledge anything as a threat until it because convenient. And they're just way too effective at mowing down any enemy they find, until it becomes convenient for them to need help. Again, we saw this in LOTR but nowhere near this level of ridiculousness. The fact that they're fighting the air, with enemies digitally added in later just adds to my feeling of disconnection to these movies.

 

[Auberon]

When it comes to fighting, I generally prefer Suspension Of Disbelief, which translates to the ACTION! of improbable reflexes and blows.

Also, my inner nerd tells me that Fëanor and Fingolfin were more than sufficient to cut down hordes of mooks, even if it was described in vague epics and not elaborate details.

 

[Imperioratorex Caprae]

There was a TV series called Roar starring the late Heath Ledger before he was big, somewhere in the 90's. Writing was shit but the action/battle sequences were pretty damn good and realistic in my view. No over-the-top sword fighting or set pieces but quick, dirty and brutal fights. This is the type I prefer to see in non-fantasy movies. However when dealing with anything that's hyper-reality already, the over-the-top sequences are ok as long as they don't drag on and aren't mostly CGI. I detest CGI fights because growing up watching the hyper-reality martial arts movies with wires and great choreography always trumps the cheap way out (CGI). Exception: I think for all his faults in the prequels, Lucas' lightsaber battles were the right touch of choreography and CGI. I mean dealing with Jedi is one of the few times I can see CGI working, also magic-based fighting is ok. Everything else can be done with camera tricks and good choreography and wires.

 

[Grumpy Ginger]

For me it depends on how its being played I generally like my fight scenes to at least seem realistic or at least visceral but one of my favourite ones of all time is the crazy 88 fight from kill bill but that was hardly played seriously. In the Hobbit though it did really start pushing my nerves a bit especially comparing it to some of the scenes in Lotr though I did like the scene of Legolas vs Bolg because it wasted so much less time with the theatrics and just got down to a rather nasty fight.

 

[SecondPrize]

I don't mind over the top action but I hate bad cgi and this movie had that in droves to fuel the ninja elves. I vehemently disliked the movie in general anyways so that might color my opinion of the action.

 

[SaberXIII]

As an anime fan I'm sort of obliged to say over the top action, but in a realistic movie - upon consideration - I'm say realistic action. If I'm not paying a great deal of attention then the elves, in this case, can be as ninja as they like, but for a film to actually be gripping it is important to feel the tense nature of what they characters should be experiencing.

 

[The Funslinger]

I like it when it is more realistic fighting. When it is too much jumping and shit, it put me off. When it looks more real, It feels like I there.

Indeed, speaking as someone who has some sword fighting experience, I've seen some choreographed fights in and out of movies.

It's sort of a subtle 'can't unsee' thing, but when you see it, those superfluous movements will make you tear your eyes out.

For instance, I used to love this video when I was a kid:


Now it just irritates the hell out of me. That fight should have been over in about thirty seconds, from the moment one of them randomly decided to turn on the spot.

Not to mention when the guy in the blue shirt randomly switches to a backhanded grip. "Hmm, I'm having a lot of trouble with this guy... I know! I'll make my sword really hard to control! That'll learn 'em!"

OT: The thing with enemies being absolutely no threat is irritating to me, too. Regardless, I love the Lord of the Rings movies.

Still, it inevitably leads to writers writing themselves into a corner the moment any real dramatic tension is needed.

In a convoluted way, that might be what's ended up getting us into this modern trend of poorly written romances and love triangles. There is literally no other way to create suspense, because protagonists in these sorts of things are nigh invincible.

R.I.P. Boromir. You weren't OP at all.

 

[Sniper Team 4]

You forget, the elves were getting stomped into the ground before those two showed up. And at Helm's Deep, the elves got downright slaughtered. Did you see any of them standing after the battle was over except for Leagolas?

It's not the fact that they're elves. It's the fact that they're main characters, and Orcs are cannon fodder. Remember, that lead Orc killed a lot of elves and beat up a certain someone before escaping, so the Orcs have their OP characters too. Heroes are just downright better than regular soldiers.

I do agree that the CGI is getting to be a bit much. There were a few times in those fighting scenes that I really couldn't tell what was happening. The battles in the Lord of the Rings movies were much better because CGI wasn't used nearly as much.