Poll: Jedi vs anyone else?

[tiredinnuendo]

Sorry for taking your several times of ASKING WHICH JEDI (implying you didn't know that it was said master) and just jumping off without even thinking about the various possibilities straight away and soundly bitching about it.
Someone mentioned before about the KOTOR timeline being pretty darn strong, the book ones being VERY strong, and the movie ones being relatively weaker, so if you had been reading, then you could have just taken that into account and made note for each level (presumably Spiderman couldn't beat a Sith Lord capable of keeping a fleet of warships made of loose bits of scrap together, but Spiderman could beat the pants, underwear, and unmentionable parts off of Luke (at least I think so)).
So yeah, I was totally flaming none the less.

You don't even kind of pay attention, and that's the whole problem. You flame me for not reading and yet you missed everything I said.

My statements in brief:

- Jedi differ greatly in power depending on media format (movies, books, video games, anime, etc).
- There is no hard cap on what a Jedi "Master" is capable of. There were lots of Jedi Masters. Some can apparently blow up planets. Others have trouble catching falling beams.
- Many people are treating a Jedi Master as a being who has unlimited abilities of telekinesis, foresight, and telepathy. They also act as if they are complete masters of the lightsabre. Finally, the assumption seems to be being made that this hypothetical Jedi can do all these things at the same time. Yet no Jedi, ever, has been able to do that.
- If we were given a specific Jedi Master (i.e. Could the Anime version of Mace Windu be defeated one on one) we could evaluate his abilities.

Thus: Which Jedi?

In short, I've already said everything you just said, but also took it a step further to say that the debate is flawed in principle (one can't design an opponent against a force that keeps changing in power). And then you flamed me for it.

I don't feel it was deserved, and I was hoping that, once you had a chance to read over the whole thread, you'd realize your mistake. You did appear to have some valid points to make. Thus far, however, this has not been the case.

Ta.

- J

 

[LordOmnit]

Thus: Which Jedi?

I think you completely ignored my last post despite quoting it and somehow obviously reading it.
STOP ASKING and just make a comment on the, like, four different forms there are.
It's not really that hard, here's one:
Movies- probably a Spartan from Halo could defeat about half the Jedi Masters, be evenly matched with some of the more powerful ones, and be trounced by the greatest ones (Mace, Yoda, Vader)
Anime- Mace beats anyone who isn't similarly overpowered (such as Iceman, Dr. Who, etc.)
KOTOR- The most powerful ones are virtually unstoppable save for maybe aforementioned overpowered's
Books- not sure myself, since I haven't read them, but from what people have said they are somewhere inbetween, so I wouldn't put it past them to beat Spartans, but loose to, say, (I dunno, some average-ish super-powered superhero)

Wow, that wasn't so hard.
If it is so difficult to concieve an argument from a few more than one viewpoint and happenstance, then sorry, but otherwise you're just whining.
And I don't mean that in a flaming way, but it seriously isn't complicated. Just take it one at a time.
Do you think a good story goes just as planned during the creation process? No, it starts off with an idea and then grows and expands from there, moving out in different directions that may not have been addressed by the premise. You just go with what comes up and keep to the base (in this case that would be Jedi Master vs. (X) = ??? and then it eventually came up with the different timelines and abilities of the Jedi, etc.).

 

[Knight Templar]

hay people keep quoting me, but don't deal with the big word at the bottom. so just for any pro-jedi who dident get it:

REPLICATORS!!!!!!

 

[Spectre7]

Yea pretty much half the characters from Stargate could kill a Jedi.

The Asgard could just teleport him into a sun, I'd like to see him defend against that
Jack O'Neils awesomeness would simply render the Jedi dumbstruck
The rest of SG-1 for that matter, like to see him stop the amount of lead that 4 P90's pour out
Replicators as have been mentioned
The Ancients and Ori could do any number of nasty things to him
Vallaa would just seduce him then slit his throat or something
Pretty much the only guys a Jedi could kill are the Goa'uld

 

[LordOmnit]

hay people keep quoting me, but don't deal with the big word at the bottom. so just for any pro-jedi who dident get it:
REPLICATORS!!!!!!

But you kept putting "RELICATORS" before, not "REPLICATORS."
I know it's only one letter, but that makes a pretty big difference...

 

[tiredinnuendo]

Movies- probably a Spartan from Halo could defeat about half the Jedi Masters, be evenly matched with some of the more powerful ones, and be trounced by the greatest ones (Mace, Yoda, Vader)
Anime- Mace beats anyone who isn't similarly overpowered (such as Iceman, Dr. Who, etc.)
KOTOR- The most powerful ones are virtually unstoppable save for maybe aforementioned overpowered's
Books- not sure myself, since I haven't read them, but from what people have said they are somewhere inbetween, so I wouldn't put it past them to beat Spartans, but loose to, say, (I dunno, some average-ish super-powered superhero)

Okay, cool. Four is a good start. You just left out about ten thousand Jedi Masters of varying power levels. Include them all and get back to me.

Actually, here's a question that will tell me everything I need to know about what sort of answers will satisfy you.

Are Sith and Dark Jedi the same thing?

If they are, then only the movies are valid and a light breeze can defeat a Jedi. If they're not, then the expanded universe is cannon too, and then Jedi can implode star systems depending on who writes it.

- J

 

[Lightbulb]

I'll elaborate on my yes, Van Helsing.

Van Helsing was an 80 something year old researcher...How exactly does that make him capable of beating a Jedi?
Also my vote goes to Xykon the Lich ---> http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0434.html

What for his whole life? Not just for 10 years?

 

[LordOmnit]

Okay, cool. Four is a good start. You just left out about ten thousand Jedi Masters of varying power levels. Include them all and get back to me.
Actually, here's a question that will tell me everything I need to know about what sort of answers will satisfy you.
Are Sith and Dark Jedi the same thing?
If they are, then only the movies are valid and a light breeze can defeat a Jedi. If they're not, then the expanded universe is cannon too, and then Jedi can implode star systems depending on who writes it.

I fail to see the difference between 'Dark' Jedi and Sith, so I have assumed that they are just different names for the same thing (namely the Sith) to answer your last question.
Okay, that out of the way and moving on...
God damn are you picky. I mean, I thought that I was especially with that "relicators" vs. "replicators" thing that I didn't get because he kept misspelling it, but JESUS F-ING CHRIST are you bitching.
I'm not going to list off everything in any universe and say "yes" or "no" (it) can't beat (this Jedi) for every single master that has ever existed in every universe!
Good GOD are you whining about this. Like I said, it isn't that complicated to look at it from DIFFERENT viewpoints.
Would you say that every possible event in the Marvel, DC, (other superhero comics) universes all happened verbatim for every superhero as in the comics? NO! So look at it from any one point in the continuity.

 

[tiredinnuendo]

Well, I guess it's clear that you and I aren't going to be friends on this particular topic. I'll respectfully withdraw.

By the by, Sith are nothing like Dark Jedi in pretty much every piece of Star Wars cannon up until this "new" trilogy came out when Lucas retconned everything. Your lack of understanding on a subject that you see fit to call me out on nonwithstanding, here's the difference:

Lots of people use the force. The witches of Dathomir who ride rancors, the Sith (naturally), Jedi (and Dark Jedi, by extension), the Whill Shamans.... actually it's a huge list. Anyway, if we consider the Jedi battle mages (using "magic" and a "sword"), the Sith were wizards. They didn't do the physical training Jedi did, and they didn't need lightsabres, because they could use the force to turn your tongue into a giant snake thing that pops out of your mouth and starts biting your head.

I don't think any of this will change your mind, and really why should it, but if you are interested in learning something about a mythos you argue so viciously for, check this out:

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/The_Force

- J

 

[puffenstuff]

The answer is a definite yes. Off the top of my head:
-Gordon Freeman. Has a PhD. in badass.
-Batman. It has been said before, but batman really can win any fight he is prepared for.
-Yagami Light. I'm not sure he qualifies for this contest since he is not a fighter per-say. However he does have the power to kill anyone he who's name he knows and is smarter than any character in any media, even Batman. If the jedi was put into the same room as Light and told to kill him the jedi would win. But if the jedi and light had to find each other...Light could find a way to use the jedi's powers to his own benefit and then death by heart attack.
-Alucard. Letsee... demon dog...transformation...telepathy...flight...regenerates from any wound...He goes into a fight with the intention of being decapitated so that he can freak out his enemies when he comes back.

 

[LordOmnit]

Okay, so Dark Jedi are just evil knights and Sith are wizards. That still doesn't change the original question I'm pretty sure especially since Vader was called a Sith and he certainly did use the Force in its more magical ways occasionally, but was a lot more like a fighter than a wizard. Same with Sidious to a degree, except that he only really ever did the lightning and mind-warping (possibly just manipulative words rather than the force) and a little with the saber.

 

[tiredinnuendo]

You've sort of got it. The Sith would often recruit Dark Jedi to function as "Dark Lords of the Sith" (that's the actual title). The Emperor using a lightsabre actually broke (and therefore retconned) cannon. He never had one of those originally.

Lucas has always been about taking someone else's work and simplifying it for profit. The original Star Wars was a Cliff Notes retread of Dune with all the hard words removed. The new movies take some concepts from the expanded universe (all of which Lucas okayed when they were being written, by the way) and redo them in simplified format. Lucas doesn't believe his fans can handle the idea of lots of Force Sects, so he takes Jedi and Sith (the most popular), collapses them, and makes them the end-all be-all of Force use.

This gives us cannonical layers (see my link to PA in a post about a page back or so). Cannon Layer A is the movies, B is expanded universe and some games, C is comics, D is anime, E is Christmas Special.... so on. The idea of a Jedi has been redefined several times since inception.

A good place to start might be the Tales of the Jedi graphic novel. It does a good job of explaining the Jedi/Dark Jedi/Sith relationship, or at least cannon B and C's version of that relationship.

Maybe that's why you thought I was "whining". If your total Star Wars experience is the movies, a few episodes of the anime, and two games; a Jedi would mean one thing to you. What it means to me is something else.

- J

 

[LordOmnit]

[[On a side note, this took a good turn I'd say...]]
Okay, that is a lot more understandable (than, say, a wall of text) and simplifies it.
But even then, I did note that you could take Layer A, compare it, move onto Layer B, compare it, etc.
Although just in itself I'd have to say that I doubt that all of the books themselves coincide, whereas the games together and movies (and anime to a degree) together all work in their respectives layers, but it seems the books might be a bit less organized (admittedly they probably don't need to be since they aren't all interrelated (very) directly and are each their own individual story or series section).

 

[tiredinnuendo]

(I agree, this is going much better now)

Your observations on consistancy in the books are somewhat true somewhat not. Some authors (Zahn, for instance) are viewed as being very good and consistant with the series, and did a way better job with the saga than Lucas did in the minds of many of the fans.

Basically, for 20 years after the movies, Lucas approved other people the rights to build on his saga, but since he approved each thing that was produced, most of the authors were very careful to maintain consistancy with each other. The games had a bit more leeway power-wise (see: an apprentice pulls down a Star Destroyer in Force Unleashed) mostly because the players demanded it, but the storyline always had to meet standards. In short, they paid him to make the stuff that they wrote into official Star Wars cannon.

Then Lucas released episodes 1, 2, and 3 and broke most of the existing cannon.

I'd would say that it's like letting people pay you a lot of money to expand your universe, then taking that money, and then turning around and saying that the stuff they wrote wasn't really your universe anyway. I would say that, but it's not "like" that, because that's exactly what he did.

Also, George TAPED OVER the original masters of Star Wars once that new crap got made. At times it's tough to tell whether he's a valid source for or an enemy to the Star Wars franchise.

Wow.... I got way off topic there. We were talking about Jedi, right? They're pretty tough, I guess.

- J

 

[LordOmnit]

Wow.... I got way off topic there. We were talking about Jedi, right? They're pretty tough, I guess.

Yeah, I think-
Ooooh, look; Paul Atreides!

 

[Spinwhiz]

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/The_Force

- J

Thank you for posting this. I went through and read this wiki, plus the ones it links to. Even though I think 1 on 1, even with what everyone is saying (and well done on the deep thought some of you put in), a jedi is damn near unstoppable, it really depends on what their jedi focus is on and how long they can keep up "drawing" the force to them before they explode. There are some obvious characters that are just nuts that would wipe the floor with a jedi, but in comics, movies or literature, these characters are not seen to really do any type of damage. So, who knows...but I love the feedback and everyone's comments (well, the ones that actually took a brain cell to produce).

Now, on a different note, who wouldn't want to be a jedi instead of a regular human? lol I think it'd be great! TK a beer from the fridge right to my chair!

 

[LordOmnit]

Now, on a different note, who wouldn't want to be a jedi instead of a regular human? lol I think it'd be great! TK a beer from the fridge right to my chair!

As long as I don't actually have to subscribe to either sides' dogmas, then yeah, I'd totally like to be a Jedi/Force-Weilder. I'd smoke anyone in a race... I'd never have to lean over several feet from my bed to adjust the volume on my compter when I'm laying on the bed, and I'd never lose my freaking cell phone either! That sounds pretty awesome!

 

[tiredinnuendo]

Now, on a different note, who wouldn't want to be a jedi instead of a regular human? lol I think it'd be great! TK a beer from the fridge right to my chair!

Hm... iffy. Great power = great responsibility and all that.

Generally speaking, I manage to keep my emotions pretty well controlled, but I'm not sure how I feel about the idea that if I lost my cool one too many times my emotions would control me forever.

- J

 

[Abbadiel]

It's easy.

Jedi vs A golden Saint from Saint Seiya.
Jedi vs Baal from Diablo II
Jedi vs Alma from F.E.A.R.

 

[LordOmnit]

Hm... iffy. Great power = great responsibility and all that.
Generally speaking, I manage to keep my emotions pretty well controlled, but I'm not sure how I feel about the idea that if I lost my cool one too many times my emotions would control me forever.

Oh yeah, Uncle Ben... I guess I'd have to go out and fight crime or something. Maybe get rid of all the abandoned bikes that litter the campus too.
But I'd think that as long as I understood my particular view on the world, then it would make it so that I didn't have to worry about the light or dark side. It seems that most (as in the few we saw) of the people who have to worry about being drawn to the dark side are on shaky (or purposefully changable in the case of the games) moral grounds anyways.