Poll: Jiggle Physics on Man Parts

[oreso]

It happens all the time 'I'm sick of hearing about...*insert complaint here*' and all the flak Sarkeesian has gotten just from saying her opinion.

Please could you give me a link or more specific example? I've read the same threads, and though I've seen some folks saying "You've no right to stop me buying and enjoying this", I've not seen folks say "You've no right to complain about it".

Maybe we're disagreeing about what 'complaining' is. Lemme unpack it a little.

I guess it easy for people to dismiss complaints about representation when they are the ones who are catered to 90% of the time. It's called being privileged.

I'm sorry, but I just think that's a very inaccurate thing to say given the evidence here. Multiple people in every thread I've seen you post in have listened and responded with thoughtful arguments, and that is the opposite of being dismissed.

And by saying it like this I think you're poisoning the well a little bit, right? You're saying "If you disagree, well, that's just because you're privileged". In effect, you are dismissing any argument against you. The equivalent dismissive argument would be "If you disagree, well, that's just because you're a woman", but I don't think anyone's said that.

And 'privilege' in this case is not a special moral label, it really just means being a larger section of the market. Same way people who like FPS' are privileged compared to people like adventure games, they get bigger budget games and more options. It's not a big conspiracy to dismiss the opinions of women (or adventure game lovers) in any general sense (as I sometimes feel you are suggesting), it's entirely market forces.

(Maaaybe there's a chicken and egg thing and women aren't catered to, hence they don't like games in general, hence they're not catered to. But really, it would only take a few games that -do- cater to women for their to be a big explosion of female gamers. Those games have been made and that hasn't happened, so I'm gonna guess that there are other social or biological factors at work).

And I say all this when I actually agree with your tastes almost completely. I also hated the Witcher for being juvenile (Witcher 1 at least, I haven't played 2). But I just played more Mass Effect instead. I also find the Sorceress faintly ridiculous, so I'd probably play the Ranger chick. I also think Nathan Drake is bland, so I'll play Tomb Raider.

So there's some options there already, and while I'll be right there with you campaigning for more options still (sexualised women and brutalised men are way overrepresented and are such lazy options, I agree!), I will definitely stand against you if you are trying to change existing games to make them more acceptable to our tastes, or if you are attempting to shame people who happen to like other things.

I will stand against you, not because I'm 'privileged', not because I don't think you have a right to complain, but because the majority are entitled to their games too and I don't think we should be trying to make them feel bad about it.

In short, I think we'll get change by saying "C'mon, that again? Let's have more of this please! Take my money!" rather than "You made -that-?! You should be ashamed!"

Cheers!

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

snip

Then you are privileged by being a larger section of the market. Guys often bring this up when female gamers like me want to see something different yet have a go at EA or Nintendo for making what sells. I just think it's used as a shield for ignoring female gamers far too much.

If I have choice then I probably won't complain about the Duke Nukems and DOA's even though I think they are morally reprehensible. At the moment it's like being a guy stuck in a world where 90% of books are Mills and Boon novels.

That said the occasional character like Isabella from Dragon Age 2 or Morrigan who legitimately have sexy as part of their personality is fine. As long as that's not all the women in the game.

Final Fantasy X2 is an interesting game because it's extremely girly yet I've heard guys say they enjoyed it. The final Fantasy series seems to be good at balancing fan service with empowering female gamers it's just a shame it's a bit rocky lately.

Frankly if someone makes a game like Duke Nukem I will ask them what the hell they are doing and tell them they should be ashmed. That game is really sexist at points. I don't think I'm alone in thinking that.

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

snip

Yeah but she's still attractive isn't she? She's not ugly or anything. Would you really feel deprived if female characters looked like her? (Even in her second dress)

I think it's easier to cater for both genders than you are making out. Do female characters really have to look like DOA bikini girls and flirt with the audience to be sexy?

 

[nexus]

Man parts don't really jiggle though.. ?

Unless you're wearing boxer shorts (or none) and jumping around in loose gym shorts. Seriously since when do they "jiggle"?

 

[Phasmal]

Man parts don't really jiggle though.. ?

Unless you're wearing boxer shorts (or none) and jumping around in loose gym shorts. Seriously since when do they "jiggle"?

Um... because breast physics as they exist are realistic?
Nope.
Besides, you could argue the exact same thing. Most women wear bras, and the amount of `jiggling` going on is not only exaggerated to unrealistic degrees but would also be fucking painful.

Unsupported manparts move around.

 

[oreso]

Then you are privileged by being a larger section of the market.

But I'm not? As I said (a few times now), I don't like this stuff either. I prefer a more equal treatment of the genders. Much much prefer. I complain about it too. Many other folks have said similar to you ("but I don't find the Sorceress attractive either!")

But that's the thing, by saying stuff like this:

Guys often bring this up when female gamers like me want to see something different yet have a go at EA or Nintendo for making what sells. I just think it's used as a shield for ignoring female gamers far too much.

You're portraying yourself and your gender as the victim of some deliberate malice. But this really isn't the case. This is not a "guys vs. girls" thing at all. Many guys agree with your tastes (me included) while many girls have wholly opposite tastes to us (like all those female Scarlet Blade players who are being catered to).

No one is being actively excluded here. There are no victims here. And if we want true (non-censorship-enforced, non-shaming, non-quota) diversity in our portrayed gender roles then I think we need to avoid any association with that kind of simplistic and inaccurate "guys vs. girls" argument.

Final Fantasy X2 is an interesting game because it's extremely girly yet I've heard guys say they enjoyed it. The final Fantasy series seems to be good at balancing fan service with empowering female gamers it's just a shame it's a bit rocky lately.

Agreed fully. FF has always been pretty good at this, I still remember the segments with the big tough hero guy suffering a breakdown and having to be pushed around in a wheelchair by the tough action girl. A guy showing sympathetic and meaningful weakness while a girl is showing meaningful strength. Crazily progressive stuff, and we don't see enough of it.

I'll leave off on the shaming thing for now. Suffice to say, I don't think anyone should be ashamed of liking boobies, in real life or in games, but I think the other points are more important if we're to have a constructive dialogue about anything.

Cheers!

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

You're portraying yourself and your gender as the victim of some deliberate malice. But this really isn't the case. This is not a "guys vs. girls" thing at all. Many guys agree with your tastes (me included) while many girls have wholly opposite tastes to us (like all those female Scarlet Blade players who are being catered to).

I can only say what it feels like. When I say I would like to see more empowered and non sexualised women and a guy or even girl says 'No chance sex is what sells'. It feels like I'm being hand waved away and dismissed on a point that is normally viewed the opposite way when people talk about the tons of shooters on the market.

If you don't want people to see it that way don't use it as an excuse when female gamers bring these issues up.

I also disagree that it's exclusionary. Like I said I can't enjoy The Witcher or Dead or Alive because of the juvenile way it portrays women. I'm not saying developers do this deliberately but it's a side effect of catering heavily to men's sexuality and ignoring female gamers.

As for Duke Nukem is outright sexist not just titillation. It's one of the games that cross the line. I don't think I'm wrong in pointing that out.

 

[oreso]

If you don't want people to see it that way don't use it as an excuse when female gamers bring these issues up.

I also disagree that it's exclusionary. Like I said I can't enjoy The Witcher or Dead or Alive because of the juvenile way it portrays women. I'm not saying developers do this deliberately but it's a side effect of catering heavily to men's sexuality and ignoring female gamers.

The emphasis I've added is what I'm talking about.

It isn't just female gamers who bring these issues up. You're implying that it is. And that's simplistic and it hurts your argument.

You're claiming female gamers are being excluded, when in fact many female gamers love the games you mention (including sexualising the female and male characters in them). If you claim this, than the refutation is easy: people can legitimately just point to the facts and show that you're wrong.

But the deeper point you're trying to make is still worthwhile. We can still campaign for increased representation of non-sexualised women without making it into a gender war.

 

[Ryotknife]

snip

Yeah but she's still attractive isn't she? She's not ugly or anything.

Okay, I feel that we are having some sort of disconnect here. Is Elizabeth in her first dress good looking? yes. Is she sexy? no. I admit that she is good looking in her first dress, but there is no sexual attraction to her. Same as me saying that certain men are good looking, but I have no sexual attraction to them. Now before we go further:

sex-y
1

: sexually suggestive or stimulating : erotic


2

: generally attractive or interesting : appealing

When describing people, I generally use the first definition of sexy, it seems you are using the second definition. As the two definitions are different, I have a feeling we are just going to talk over each other here.

Would you really feel deprived if female characters looked like her? (Even in her second dress)

I play female characters all the time that are significantly less sexy than Elizabeth with her boob window dress. Like Femshep, Femhawke, and my female characters in skyrim and mount and blade warband. However, that is not the original subject. It was about sexy women in video games and whether they should exist or not. I was saying you are trying to remove sexy women from video games, and by the first definition I am correct. However, if you are using the second definition of the word sexy then you are also correct.

I think it's easier to cater for both genders than you are making out. Do female characters really have to look like DOA bikini girls and flirt with the audience to be sexy?

A. DOA is an extreme example

B. DOA released a DLC for the male characters where they wear nothing but tight short trunks, for which I applaud them as it gives female gamers a choice for their own eye candy.

C. No, they don't have to wear bikinis, but once again that is not the subject. Saying you cant expect men to find women to be sexy if they are wearing burkas or heavy armor is very different from saying that women are only sexy if they wear nothing. Hell, it is possible for the general male to find a woman fully clothed to be sexy, but that is very difficult to pull off.

As for the new subject, no I don't mind if DOA type characters were removed. but I don't want eye candy removed entirely. Even if you believe that you are not removing eye candy, from my perspective you are.

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

snip

Where have I suggested they wear burkas?

The fact is that women can be attractive without being over the top. It's hard to take them seriously as characters when they are half dressed or flirting with the audience because it kind of removes any level of belief in them as a character and causes disconnect.

Imagine if Nathan Drake spent the whole time flexing or winking at the character could you take him seriously or if Artyom was wading through the metro in his speedo?

I have no problem with them being dressed sexily as long as it has something to do with their character or what they are doing (Isabella and Morrigan for example).

 

[Ryotknife]

snip

Where have I suggested they wear burkas?

The fact is that women can be attractive without being over the top. It's hard to take them seriously as characters when they are half dressed or flirting with the audience because it kind of removes any level of belief in them as a character and causes disconnect.

Imagine if Nathan Drake spent the whole time flexing or winking at the character could you take him seriously or if Artyom was wading through the metro in his speedo?

I have no problem with them being dressed sexily as long as it has something to do with their character or what they are doing (Isabella and Morrigan for example).

Where have I suggested they wear bikinis?

Nathan drake....honestly wouldn't change his character much. He is already a intolerable shmuck.

Artyom...you don't see his character very much other than...what...one cutscene at the end?

Also, I have to mention that MOST over the top female characters are from Japan, who don't give a flying F what their western audience thinks.

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

snip

Where have I suggested they wear burkas?

The fact is that women can be attractive without being over the top. It's hard to take them seriously as characters when they are half dressed or flirting with the audience because it kind of removes any level of belief in them as a character and causes disconnect.

Imagine if Nathan Drake spent the whole time flexing or winking at the character could you take him seriously or if Artyom was wading through the metro in his speedo?

I have no problem with them being dressed sexily as long as it has something to do with their character or what they are doing (Isabella and Morrigan for example).

Where have I suggested they wear bikinis?

Nathan drake....honestly wouldn't change his character much. He is already a intolerable shmuck.

Artyom...you don't see his character very much other than...what...one cutscene at the end?

Also, I have to mention that MOST over the top female characters are from Japan, who don't give a flying F what their western audience thinks.

Well that's nice and all but it doesn't mean we can't mention it.

As for the male characters do you see what I'm getting at? It's hard to take a female character seriously when she's not dressed for the occasion.

 

[TrevHead]

I might aswell bring this chap up

This Viz comic character was part of an early 90s 8/16bit computer game

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7K_J9JzsueI

 

[Smeggs]

I remember Lucifer's wang from Dante's Inferno having some physics to it.
You know, that had to be somebody's job, giving it physics. Somebody had to sit there, and make the devils dick swing to-and-fro properly. And then a QA tester had to make sure it still swung proper during gameplay. And they got payed for it.
I don't know if that's a good or bad thing.

I'm dying right now, I can't breathe, I think I'm gonna pass out.

 

[Calibanbutcher]

I should point out that it's still not equivalent. Breasts are a secondary sex characteristic while a penis is a primary sex characteristic.

The equivalent would be to give the men full beards and lovingly animate them to the same level of Lara Croft's hair. (Facial hair and the adam's apple are a human male's secondary sex characteristic, you see.)

But I can'T grow a beard...
So clearly having flowing, lucious beards everywhere would greatly upset me.
I AM OFFENDED BY THIS, SOMEONE PROTECT ME.

 

[Kopikatsu]

I should point out that it's still not equivalent. Breasts are a secondary sex characteristic while a penis is a primary sex characteristic.

The equivalent would be to give the men full beards and lovingly animate them to the same level of Lara Croft's hair. (Facial hair and the adam's apple are a human male's secondary sex characteristic, you see.)

But I can'T grow a beard...
So clearly having flowing, lucious beards everywhere would greatly upset me.
I AM OFFENDED BY THIS, SOMEONE PROTECT ME.

You have an enlarged adams apple. Good enough.

Also, wut? How can't you grow a beard? I've had a beard (and mustache!) since I was like....14.

 

[Calibanbutcher]

I should point out that it's still not equivalent. Breasts are a secondary sex characteristic while a penis is a primary sex characteristic.

The equivalent would be to give the men full beards and lovingly animate them to the same level of Lara Croft's hair. (Facial hair and the adam's apple are a human male's secondary sex characteristic, you see.)

But I can'T grow a beard...
So clearly having flowing, lucious beards everywhere would greatly upset me.
I AM OFFENDED BY THIS, SOMEONE PROTECT ME.

You have an enlarged adams apple. Good enough.

Also, wut? How can't you grow a beard? I've had a beard (and mustache!) since I was like....14.

Stop rubbing your superior beard in my face...

I dunno, I come from a family with very little beard growth...

 

[Paradoxrifts]

They already made a major motion picture about tanned, sweaty musclemen jiggle-fighting their way across ancient Greece.​

​

If people want huge, pulsating trouser bulges on top of all that then I demand big, juicy camel toes. And everything must be in high definition video.​

 

[Ryan Minns]

Stop rubbing your superior beard in my face...

I dunno, I come from a family with very little beard growth...

Lucky you Like many people I, as a kid desired the ability to grow facial hair quite a bit however... TAKE IT! FOR THE LOVE OF GOD PLEASE TAKE IT! I hate shaving so bloody much already If I could trade you my hair growth I'd happily do so... not the chest hair though, I love my chest hair!

 

[aba1]

I think it would bother people because the penis is more comparable to showing vagina which is not really shown either. Boobs are in this odd ball middle zone where it isn't bad to show them off but it is still very sexual I guess it would be like a dudes abs (shrugs). Either way I could care less if it makes people happy and doesn't hurt me I don't really care and that can be applied to just about everything.