Poll: Lara and the Tomb raider controversy

[Treblaine]

This is why the Mary Sue label only being applied to females is sexist and I've always thought so.

I think both male and female characters should be able to be depicted as perfect or fatally flawed, the important thing is the RIGHT one is used for what is suitable for the story which is a subtle decision to be made by the writer/director. That means you cannot totally rule out any one. Any given single incidence of a stereotype isn't a problem, but collective when it is done nearly ALL the time.

What the fuck are you talking about?

Plenty of male characters are known as Mary sues, or Gary Stues sometimes.

Male characters are not, nor have they ever been above such criticism.

You also completely missed the point of what I was saying.

Sorry, I though I made myself clear, please re read this part of my post with a bit more attention:

"This is why the Mary Sue label only being applied to females is sexist and I've always thought so."

I was actually agreeing with you.

I never said it was applied by everyone (including you) to females. But it is so frequently used against females and so rarely against males it is hardly recognised. I've yet to ever hear James Bond be called a Gary Sue, except in a conversation to explicitly counter the argument that Mary Sue isn't just applied to females characters. But, that's not proof it's never used for male characters... But it cannot be used that often..

If it is equally applied to male and female roles, then it a fair criticism. But if you have such a widely used and effective mode of criticising female characters that isn't used for males then there is a unwitting conspiracy to have less powerful female characters than male characters.

I'll state my opinion here: I think female characters are unfairly and excessively objected to for being "too good" than male characters.

In shawshank redemption, no one started a hundred threads objecting to Andy Dufresne masterminding such a daring plan that took control of his life and having a happy ending because he had been group raped in the past, that it would be too "Gary sue" for him to overcome that.

 

[Treblaine]

snip

I already have... I watched the E3 thing that's why I am concerned.

Then how do you address how she was a badass from the very start, well BEFORE the safe-for-TV perving from that backwoods guy.

It contradicts your argument where the concern she is only badass after some guy tried to lay his hands on her, but got 230 grains of hot lead instead.

 

[m19]

My point is that a woman can be tough without being traumatised.

If you are not traumatized by violence there is something wrong with you.

When Nathan Drake in his backstory is faced with the kill or be killed situation for the first time he cannot do it, because it's traumatizing.

 

[Ickorus]

I think the way the PR has been handled has been overdone, I think it's just that people are focusing more on it because Laras character had been established as basically an unstoppable badass, tough and unflinching. Whereas the new Tomb Raider is focusing on how she became that way, and i think some people are overreacting because she is a woman.

Agreed, people seem to be oblivious to how much more developers are exploring the emotions of their characters in recent years.

It's a really wide range of games too from stuff like Alan Wake to Bastion to Dead Space and even to Gears of War*.

[small]* Epic's attempt may have been a bit crap but that doesn't negate the fact that they actually tried.[/small]

 

[Treblaine]

snip

Ah sorry then, I thought you were saying that using the criticism 'Mary Sue' is sexist because it can't be used against male characters or something.

I'd agree it's probably pointed out more for women, but I don't think it's totally ignored for men. People may not explicitly say so and so is a Gary Stue, but male characters are criticised for being too perfect fairly often.

It also has to be pointed out that many more male heroes are tragic heroes. Which makes it hard for them to be Gary Stues.

Even when they're not, they're often portrayed as broken or defective in some other way.

We seem to be perfectly happy having our male protagonists be mentally unstable, obsessive, arrogant, rude or defective in some way as justification or balance for their brilliance, but that hardly ever happens with female protagonists.

Most obstacles for female protagonists are products of her environment ie 'the male dominated system' or 'people not accepting her brilliance because shes a woman' etc.

Whereas we're much happier for male protagonists to cause a lot of their own problems, or have to battle their own demons.

I don't quite know why this is, but it certainly does contribute to the out of kilter Mary Sue to Gary Stue balance.

It's quite sad really when you think about it.

Much appreciated, I'm sorry I didn't make myself clear in the first place.

But branching out on what would be considered flaws, Lara had them even back in the 1990's. See it was a mild controversy back then that usually only the fans picked up on as you had to play the games through to see this side of Lara rather than an uncommitted critic just playing the first level: it was how murderous and frankly callous Lara was.

It started as a joke with her putting so many rare species on the endangered species list, but then she was breaking into US military bases and London banking establishments and even museums, gunning down any and everyone who crossed her, people who weren't bad or deserved to get shot by any means. It wasn't just a conceit in gameplay, one cutscene she coyly taunted her competition as she watch them fail to scramble to climb up from a ledge and fall to their death. Drake never went that far.

1990's Lara was well composed and in always verbally in control but she was like a texas bandit how willingly she'd draw her gun and point it at people and almost psychotically flippant at killing people. Usually it was only long after the fact that she might do something to save the world, mostly it was for her personal gain gaining these treasures.

It wasn't the male dominated system, it was the "anyone other than Lara Croft" that she was at war with, her first antagonist was female. The only ally she seemed to have was that decrepit old butler and (when I played the game at least) got used as target practice. Ultimately she was a Jenny No Mates, who was pretty detached from everyone she interacted with. She couldn't even stay hospitable with her mentor, Werner Von Croy, the seem to be constantly trying to kill each other.


Could have forced the pilot she surprised to just get out, lol-no, just smile and shoot him in cold blood.

Lara is extremely capable in progressing the events of an adventure to obtain lost and magical treasures, but she is not perfect. She is fundamentally flawed as a human being, though I don't know whether this is down to bad writing or actual design, the outcome is the same. Lara Croft is a cold blooded murderer, a loner and obsessive over inanimate treasures.