Poll: Lara and the Tomb raider controversy

[Helmholtz Watson]

It's not moving the goalposts to demand the same situation that Lara is in from an example.
All of these examples is where the guy is already portrayed as a big badass hero so it doesn't count.

-_- what? Did you not even look at the video I showed you? The entire Soul Reaver series is about Raziel trying to recover from his physical trauma and avoid being manipulated by two other people.

As for your bad ass comment, I see your adding no-true-scotsman to your argument. I didn't realize that even if a character is physically brutalized, like what was shown in Kayne and Lynch, it "doesn't count" because they are "bad ass hero".

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

It's not moving the goalposts to demand the same situation that Lara is in from an example.
All of these examples is where the guy is already portrayed as a big badass hero so it doesn't count.

-_- what? Did you not even look at the video I showed you? The entire Soul Reaver series is about Raziel trying to recover from his physical trauma and avoid being manipulated by two other people.

As for your bad ass comment, I see your adding no-true-scotsman to your argument. I didn't realize that even if a character is physically brutalized, like what was shown in Kayne and Lynch, it "doesn't count" because they are "bad ass hero".

I played Soul Reaver when it came out and Raziel was already a 'bad ass' when that happened to him. Lara is not put across like that. It is made to seem that a woman has to be traumatized to make her tough where as guys are tough from the get go.

The way it's put across is completely different... You guys are just repeatedly ignoring what I am saying or twisting it.

I'm tired of repeating myself I've pretty much made my point and as far as I can see it still stands.

 

[Helmholtz Watson]

It's not moving the goalposts to demand the same situation that Lara is in from an example.
All of these examples is where the guy is already portrayed as a big badass hero so it doesn't count.

-_- what? Did you not even look at the video I showed you? The entire Soul Reaver series is about Raziel trying to recover from his physical trauma and avoid being manipulated by two other people.

As for your bad ass comment, I see your adding no-true-scotsman to your argument. I didn't realize that even if a character is physically brutalized, like what was shown in Kayne and Lynch, it "doesn't count" because they are "bad ass hero".

I played Soul Reaver when it came out and Raziel was already a 'bad ass' when that happened to him. You guys are just repeatedly ignoring what I am saying or twisting it.

I'm tired of repeating myself I've pretty much made my point and as far as I can see it still stands.

You said that guys are not brutalized like Laura was in the demo. So I ask again, how does what happened to Raziel not count? The guy literally had half of his face fall off.

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

It's not moving the goalposts to demand the same situation that Lara is in from an example.
All of these examples is where the guy is already portrayed as a big badass hero so it doesn't count.

-_- what? Did you not even look at the video I showed you? The entire Soul Reaver series is about Raziel trying to recover from his physical trauma and avoid being manipulated by two other people.

As for your bad ass comment, I see your adding no-true-scotsman to your argument. I didn't realize that even if a character is physically brutalized, like what was shown in Kayne and Lynch, it "doesn't count" because they are "bad ass hero".

I played Soul Reaver when it came out and Raziel was already a 'bad ass' when that happened to him. You guys are just repeatedly ignoring what I am saying or twisting it.

I'm tired of repeating myself I've pretty much made my point and as far as I can see it still stands.

You said that guys are not brutalized like Laura was in the demo. So I ask again, how does what happened to Raziel not count? The guy literally had half of his face fall off.

Yeah but it's not used as the reason why he is tough.

He is already tough.

My point is that a woman can be tough without being traumatised.

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

snip

I already have... I watched the E3 thing that's why I am concerned.

 

[Smeggs]

It's not moving the goalposts to demand the same situation that Lara is in from an example.
All of these examples is where the guy is already portrayed as a big badass hero so it doesn't count.

-_- what? Did you not even look at the video I showed you? The entire Soul Reaver series is about Raziel trying to recover from his physical trauma and avoid being manipulated by two other people.

As for your bad ass comment, I see your adding no-true-scotsman to your argument. I didn't realize that even if a character is physically brutalized, like what was shown in Kayne and Lynch, it "doesn't count" because they are "bad ass hero".

I played Soul Reaver when it came out and Raziel was already a 'bad ass' when that happened to him. You guys are just repeatedly ignoring what I am saying or twisting it.

I'm tired of repeating myself I've pretty much made my point and as far as I can see it still stands.

You said that guys are not brutalized like Laura was in the demo. So I ask again, how does what happened to Raziel not count? The guy literally had half of his face fall off.

Yeah but it's not used as the reason why he is tough.

He is already tough.

My point is that a woman can be tough without being traumatised.

Lara was traumatized by the rape that didn't happen? Somehow I think that blowing the man's face off and having his brain blood all over her may have been a bit moreso than her not-rape.

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

It's not moving the goalposts to demand the same situation that Lara is in from an example.
All of these examples is where the guy is already portrayed as a big badass hero so it doesn't count.

-_- what? Did you not even look at the video I showed you? The entire Soul Reaver series is about Raziel trying to recover from his physical trauma and avoid being manipulated by two other people.

As for your bad ass comment, I see your adding no-true-scotsman to your argument. I didn't realize that even if a character is physically brutalized, like what was shown in Kayne and Lynch, it "doesn't count" because they are "bad ass hero".

I played Soul Reaver when it came out and Raziel was already a 'bad ass' when that happened to him. You guys are just repeatedly ignoring what I am saying or twisting it.

I'm tired of repeating myself I've pretty much made my point and as far as I can see it still stands.

You said that guys are not brutalized like Laura was in the demo. So I ask again, how does what happened to Raziel not count? The guy literally had half of his face fall off.

Yeah but it's not used as the reason why he is tough.

He is already tough.

My point is that a woman can be tough without being traumatised.

Lara was traumatized by the rape that didn't happen? Somehow I think that blowing the man's face off and having his brain blood all over her may have been a bit moreso than her not-rape.

It's not just the rape I'm taking about. No where did I say that.

 

[Smeggs]

It's not moving the goalposts to demand the same situation that Lara is in from an example.
All of these examples is where the guy is already portrayed as a big badass hero so it doesn't count.

-_- what? Did you not even look at the video I showed you? The entire Soul Reaver series is about Raziel trying to recover from his physical trauma and avoid being manipulated by two other people.

As for your bad ass comment, I see your adding no-true-scotsman to your argument. I didn't realize that even if a character is physically brutalized, like what was shown in Kayne and Lynch, it "doesn't count" because they are "bad ass hero".

I played Soul Reaver when it came out and Raziel was already a 'bad ass' when that happened to him. You guys are just repeatedly ignoring what I am saying or twisting it.

I'm tired of repeating myself I've pretty much made my point and as far as I can see it still stands.

You said that guys are not brutalized like Laura was in the demo. So I ask again, how does what happened to Raziel not count? The guy literally had half of his face fall off.

Yeah but it's not used as the reason why he is tough.

He is already tough.

My point is that a woman can be tough without being traumatised.

Lara was traumatized by the rape that didn't happen? Somehow I think that blowing the man's face off and having his brain blood all over her may have been a bit moreso than her not-rape.

It's not just the rape I'm taking about. No where did I say that.

Then what kind of trauma were you referring to? All I've seen is the mention of Lara's not-rape. Were you perhaps talking about the trauma of, over time, killing hundreds of people weighing on her conscience? Or maybe literal physical traumas that her body has been put through, as an example, falling down a cliff with a crashing helicopter coming down behind her?

Because I didn't see talk of those.

To be perfectly honest, other than the fact that she's a woman, I didn't see much difference between that scene and the scene in DS2 where Isaac's hallucination-wife tries to skewer his eye with a syringe. Both were hostile, both obviously had intent to kill in the end, and yet the only reason this is different is because the guy groped her tit and kissed her neck before she rhino'd him in the junk and blew his face off.

 

[Helmholtz Watson]

Yeah but it's not used as the reason why he is tough.

He is already tough.

My point is that a woman can be tough without being traumatised.

And how would you know that?

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

It's not just the rape I'm taking about. No where did I say that.

Funny thing is: if it was young Nate nobody would complain about it being sexist. Well, they would complain that it was Nate and not a new female character. Nobody would even complain about the attempted rape.

They would never do it with a male character though because apparently male characters don't have to go through a traumatic experience to be tough...

Try and keep your story straight.

Erm that wasn't me it was Ledan

Yeah but it's not used as the reason why he is tough.

He is already tough.

My point is that a woman can be tough without being traumatised.

And how would you know that?

I'm not even going to justify that with an answer...

Because I didn't see talk of those.

Yeah that's just what I was talking about the entire time. I can see whatever I say here I'm going to get ganged up on so there is unfortunately not much point in further debate.

 

[Helmholtz Watson]

snip

Because you can't objectively prove that he was "tough".

 

[Smeggs]

Because I didn't see talk of those.

Yeah that's just what I was talking about the entire time. I can see whatever I say here I'm going to get ganged up on so there is unfortunately not much point in further debate.

"I'm not going to actually say which one, because I'm just spewing bullshit right now, so I'll just be as ambiguous as possible and act as though you can't understand my genius."

Gotcha.

 

[lunavixen]

I think the way the PR has been handled has been overdone, I think it's just that people are focusing more on it because Laras character had been established as basically an unstoppable badass, tough and unflinching. Whereas the new Tomb Raider is focusing on how she became that way, and i think some people are overreacting because she is a woman.

 

[Voulan]

I think the sexism argument can go both ways. If this was a male character, there would no fuss kicked up over it at all. It would be heralded for trying something new, and portraying male characters as something more believable and not stereotypically macho. But now that it's a woman, it's suddenly sexist to show someone going through the same thing. The emphasis in the game is on an average person going through a difficult situation, not just a woman. If people can't see past her gender, then they are being just as sexist.

Lara has always been a role model for me, for lack of any other woman who could defend themselves or be as strong as her. And this new game does not change that. I don't look at the game and see a woman being repeatedly knocked down - I see an incredible woman getting back up.

 

[Ickorus]

It's totally sexist because we know only men are allowed to be beaten to a bloody pulp and psychologically scarred in games.

That was sarcasm.

This is the exact opposite of sexism in my opinion.