Poll: Lara and the Tomb raider controversy

Recommended Videos

Valis88

New member
Dec 16, 2008
102
0
0
m19 said:
Valis88 said:
I've never played a video game where something like that trailer, happens to a man, movies maybe different, but not video games.
FEAR 2. And it's far far worse than the overblown TR trailer.
I remember seeing that ending and going 'Yikes! Was that rape?' 'What was that?!' and 'Why the hell is he freaking out so much right now...Alma isn't scary looking anymore.'.

I'm curious as to what men thought of that ending. Was it rape to you? What was it?

(edit to add: Just for clarification, yes I knew it was rape after the initial ponderings, and I felt horrible after watching it.)
 

m19

New member
Jun 13, 2012
283
0
0
Alma did it to get herself pregnant... of course it was rape. In fact it may be the only actual rape of a protagonist in a video game and it's woman on man. Considering all this recent outrage... it's a little ironic.
 

Valis88

New member
Dec 16, 2008
102
0
0
m19 said:
Alma did it to get herself pregnant... of course it was rape. In fact it may be the only actual rape of a protagonist in a video game and it's woman on man. Considering all this recent outrage... it's a little ironic.
Interesting...then why was there no huge freak out, when Fear 2 was released?

Sure it wasn't in the trailers, but once everyone got the the ending I don't remember an article on it, or any kind of debate. I didn't even know the game hand an ending like that, until I played it.
 

m19

New member
Jun 13, 2012
283
0
0
Valis88 said:
Interesting...then why was there no huge freak out, when Fear 2 was released?
*shrug* Horror story, horror ending. Alma herself was raped. Although there are no scenes to that effect and she isn't a protagonist.
 

TheFinish

Grand Admiral
May 17, 2010
264
2
21
I haven't played FEAR 3, but I don't recall Alma being raped. Artificially impregnated against her will to produce a psychic super general yes (which may or may not be worse, depending on viewpoint), but raped as we understand it today, no.

If i'm wrong, feel free to correct me.

OT: No, I don't think it's sexist. I do think it is overblown beyond imagining, but that's neither here nor there.
 

Quantum Star

New member
Jul 17, 2010
401
0
0
It's sexist that a female character goes through the same trials, challenges, and obstacles that male characters do, and some people are labelling it as fetishism? Nope. Nope. Do not see the logic here. A male character is allowed to to venture through a hazardous environment, enduring torturous punishment from nature and man alike, and everyone sees this as perfectly normal, but a female character undergoing the same process? Nope. Can't have it. Debacles like this make me wonder if we will ever get over sexism.
 

DudeistBelieve

TellEmSteveDave.com
Sep 9, 2010
4,771
1
0
KRAKENDIE said:
SaneAmongInsane said:
KRAKENDIE said:
SaneAmongInsane said:
KRAKENDIE said:
SaneAmongInsane said:
For real?

ITS THE EXACT SAME SHIT AS MAFIA II?!?! WHAT THE FUCK IS EVERYONE BITCHING ABOUT?
The issue is that the game's developers' explanation of the intent was telling of some possibly sexist trends in the gaming industry. These incidents are just points of departure for discussions about the culture of the industry's customers. Not accepting that is asking censorship pigs and the delta force to come in and bring on the second coming of the Hayes Code.
Yeah okay that makesense but...

c'mon fucking aye dude, I just watched the trailer. This isn't fucking Rapelay and it's not like every enemy in the game is some would be rapist chasing Laura like a zombie with his pants around his ankles. For fucks sakes.
My previous post explains why the severity of the rape or attempted rape hardly matters because the conversation is about much more than this trailer. It's a logical fallacy to suggest that unless rape is part of a game's design, that it is not worth addressing.
Okay okay, let me go at from this angle...

The fuck is all this discussion sprouting off coming from a trailer of the Laura Croft game and not Mafia II?
Lara Croft is a video game icon, and arguably the first considerable response to the objectification of women in video games. She is a symbol as much as a character. And Mafia II was hardly anywhere near as publicized, nor defended.
Icon? Mario is an Icon. Laura Croft is as much of an icon as Crash Bandicoot and the rest of them flash in the pan games on the PSX from the 90s.
 

Aprilgold

New member
Apr 1, 2011
1,995
0
0
Doclector said:
It's ridiculous. Simply, utterly, ridiculous. Yes, somebody tried to rape her. If the trailer is anything to go by, it didn't end very well for him. This kind of stuff is allowed to be in games, it just shouldn't be glorified, and what's with people saying she's a sex object, or "typical, weak woman", in that situation, EVERYONE would be "weak", that's what the game is about, the characters baptism of fire.

Of course it could end up being handled horribly, but it all seems like a pre-emptive "jump on the sexism bandwagon" move to me.
Honestly anyone who thinks Lara is a weak woman I want to punch. She is anything but. She is the Samus Aran of Third Person Action Games. She can do everything that Indie can and some things way easier. Hell, she takes down tigers like their bitches using only pistols. Hundreds upon hundreds of soldiers have met their ends at the end of her guns and infinite bullets.

This happens a lot in the real world, as someone else pointed out above. One in three ladies will be sexually abused in some way in their lives.

Its not sexist as it is showing her change from a innocent bystander to the bad-ass tomb-raiding biatch we come to know and love and I respect them for doing this.

Valis88 said:
m19 said:
Alma did it to get herself pregnant... of course it was rape. In fact it may be the only actual rape of a protagonist in a video game and it's woman on man. Considering all this recent outrage... it's a little ironic.
Interesting...then why was there no huge freak out, when Fear 2 was released?

Sure it wasn't in the trailers, but once everyone got the the ending I don't remember an article on it, or any kind of debate. I didn't even know the game hand an ending like that, until I played it.
To put it bluntly, theres this giant fucking thing going on in Male minds that they can not possibly be raped whatsoever so I'm guessing they all subconsciously recognized it as never being possible thus causing it to be "Well that can't possibly happen, therefore I do not care for this" type of thing.

Secondly, its a horror game, and as such horrible things happen to dudes / dudets.

Quantum Star said:
It's sexist that a female character goes through the same trials, challenges, and obstacles that male characters do, and some people are labelling it as fetishism? Nope. Nope. Do not see the logic here. A male character is allowed to to venture through a hazardous environment, enduring torturous punishment from nature and man alike, and everyone sees this as perfectly normal, but a female character undergoing the same process? Nope. Can't have it. Debacles like this make me wonder if we will ever get over sexism.
We as a society will get over it and we pretty much are except for now its seems to be back-peddling towards woman being more favored the men.

As a community in games it will take a while. Hell there are still people who still casually call others niggers, homophobic slurs and cunts or bitches.
 

m19

New member
Jun 13, 2012
283
0
0
TheFinish said:
I haven't played FEAR 3, but I don't recall Alma being raped. Artificially impregnated against her will to produce a psychic super general yes (which may or may not be worse, depending on viewpoint), but raped as we understand it today, no.

If i'm wrong, feel free to correct me.
I might be wrong about that. I heard it from someone else but no longer remember myself.
 

IamGamer41

New member
Mar 19, 2010
245
0
0
So take the attempted rape away and add back in the big ass boobs.Problem solved.But seriously who cares? Its a game and if games are ART then you have nothing to complain about.Women get raped everyday,horrible I know,but it happens.Having that in a game makes for more realism.

Also I don't recall anyone throwing a fit over the female elfs in Dragon Age Origins being raped.It was there and yet no one bitched or complained about it.I have a Theory about that because said elf does not look anywhere near as hot as Lara Croft.So its ok for ugly females to be raped but not for the hot ones? Another case in point take Heavy Rain.The chick was made to striped and was assaulted,but she was ugly as shit.Now imagine if you will, if said woman in Heavy Rain looked just like Rachel from Ninja Gaiden. What would have been the outcry then?

Then again this is me just rambling ignore it all.
 

Illyasviel

New member
Nov 14, 2010
115
0
0
Moonlight Butterfly said:
And I'm going by what the dev said with the 'protect her' thing so it's straight from the horses mouth as it were.

The only reason I care so much is because Lara is one of my favorite characters and I'm scared they are going to ruin her like Samus. I;m probably going to buy the game but I'm just hoping they don't portray her as a useless wuss.
The original Lara Croft was originally intended as a buxom, big-tittied beauty ( yay, alliteration ) that men would want to protect. I heard that in a Tomb Raider retrospective that I believe originated from GameTrailers. Supposedly, those are the words of the creators, but I can't personally vouch for accuracy. Anyway, when you say she represented a power fantasy ( don't remember the exact wording ), that is only your interpretation. Back then, gaming among women was almost unheard of so they had no reason to appeal to women. I know you're saying: you don't want to see a character you like get hurt and I can sympathize, but Lara Croft was intended for men to enjoy.

Furthermore, when you describe Lara Croft as a power fantasy, there are some interesting feminist implications.

First, what are you saying? If Lara Croft is raped, all her prior / future accomplishments will be nullified? That she'll become an useless wuss? Trash? Meat?

Because I'm pretty sure it doesn't. And I'm also pretty sure feminism wouldn't put it in those terms either. If the story consistently portrays Lara Croft's transformation as a weak, terrified mouse to the proud, strong, witty modern Lara Croft, even if a rape, or near-rape is involved, then I would say well done. If she wildly fluctuates between frightened pre-teen and modern day powerhouse for no real reason, or she's introduced some dumb weakness ( wasn't Wonder Woman's original weakness to be held by a man or something? ), then hey, you have a point.

Showing Lara Croft's eventual triumph, hole in belly and all, could very well be as close to the greatest feminist Tomb Raider game ever.

And according to feminism and the patriarchy, as it is ( maybe you've picked up I don't put much stock on it ), the societal expectation IS for men to triumph over their ordeals, and as they emerge on the other side, to crack a smile. "Haha, that wasn't so bad." Maybe a "Hey, miss me? How does a cold beer sound to everybody?!" So maybe that's why you can't think of any male characters who've gone through the shitter. They've been trivialized by our societal expectations.

I didn't play Gears of War II, but wasn't one of the major plot points Dom dealing with the recent death of his wife? And wasn't that more or less panned by critics? Sure, a lot of people have said the development was out of place, or poorly handled, but at the same time, I've seen a lot of people say it was stupid and emo. You might argue that losing a wife isn't equivalent to rape, but the point is, EPIC attempted to add some depth to what would be an one-dimensional character by making him lose his wife, AND WE LAUGHED IT OFF. Because, serious Dom, there's genocidal, subterranean aliens at the door so grow a fucking pair.

Sure, that whole losing a family member thing is pretty cliche, but have you considered that point of view?

The way I see it, besides the 'please don't get feminism involved' point of view, is that Lara Croft's ordeal could be an ordeal for gaming to overcome. To become accepted as not just dumb, power fantasy, entertainment, but as a powerful medium. Gaming has come very far, but its not quite at the level of, say, literature. And literature had Lolita. One book I read that I thought was absolutely terrific ( Out by Natsu Kirino ) involves rape ( for the record, the book has won a ton of awards and even my mom hugely sympathized with the characters and thought the book was great, so I'm not being some creeper; I highly recommend the book ). Just look at comic books. Superman denounced his American citizenship or something right? Then there was that gay marriage. And this potential rape isn't happening to some nobody, new IP, this is happening to one of gaming's greatest, stalwarts, The Lara Croft.

Let me tell you, I'm extremely excited about The Last of Us because the game is going to involve a twelve-ish year old girl. Children have always been a holy grail in media. In Fallout 3, you could kill practically anybody you wanted, BUT The Children. I am really, really hoping Naughty Dog gives her character due diligence. I am hoping she can be hurt, and I am hoping the player will feel terrible about that. I'm even kinda hoping the game will continue if she dies. Maybe the plot is to return her to her parents, and in the end, you meet them and tell them, "your daughter is dead." I think a game willing to go that far will be mind blowing.

So just wait and see.
 

anthony87

New member
Aug 13, 2009
3,727
0
0
Valis88 said:
Interesting question.

How would you guys feel if in those trailers, instead of Laura, it was a guy?

Would it be such a hot debate? or would we all feel differently?
Well I'd feel the exact same way with the added question of "So....does that mean that the bad guys are homosexual? Or perhaps just that one? I suppose, tropical island, no women about and a man does have needs to fulfil along with.....*goes off into tangent*"
 

KRAKENDIE

New member
Mar 19, 2012
70
0
0
Able Seacat said:
[

But she isn't actually raped there is only the threat of rape. Personally I think this one scene has been thrown out of proportion with no help from their marketing.
This conversation is not longer about that trailer. People fail to realize that the trailer was just a point of departure for a discussion about the culture of video games and gamers.
 

Andy of Comix Inc

New member
Apr 2, 2010
2,234
0
0
Oh god no not this again.

It's as sexist as you perceive it, guys. The notion that you'll want to "protect" Lara is a little sexist maybe, but the story itself is okay. Lara gets torn down and has to build herself up. That's not sexist. It could be portrayed in a sexist way. I don't know.

My main problem is that the story is cheap. It's something that's been done a million times before with female protagonists, and if tropes are sexist then so be it. Far as I'm concerned, it's as sexist as you think it is. It might even benefit the game if it is sexist - nothing is quite as meta as Lara having to deal with sexism both in and out of the videogame.

But it's worth keeping in mind, if you're not male or female, pretty much ALL thoughts you have about the opposite sex will be "sexist" to some degree. So I guess then the question becomes less "is this sexist," and more, "is it okay that it's sexist"?
 

KRAKENDIE

New member
Mar 19, 2012
70
0
0
Valis88 said:
m19 said:
Alma did it to get herself pregnant... of course it was rape. In fact it may be the only actual rape of a protagonist in a video game and it's woman on man. Considering all this recent outrage... it's a little ironic.
Interesting...then why was there no huge freak out, when Fear 2 was released?

Sure it wasn't in the trailers, but once everyone got the the ending I don't remember an article on it, or any kind of debate. I didn't even know the game hand an ending like that, until I played it.
I think part of it was that it was this incredibly supernatural thing that people weren't even sure what happened during. The only indicator was the "Alma's pregnant" thing.

However, there is a double standard to be considered when a male character can be quasi-space-ghost-raped and there are only a few articles about it.
 

tmande2nd

New member
Oct 20, 2010
602
0
0
You know I really want them to deal with this topic...but I dont think these guys are the right ones for it.

Bioware does somewhat.
I mean The City Elf Origin revolved around race issues and rape.
No one ran around screaming in rage about that.

However that could be because it was not the main character...and you get to decapitate the bastard who did it right after.
 

m19

New member
Jun 13, 2012
283
0
0
A creepy guy leans on Lara. They fight, he dies. I think they dealt with it perfectly fine. The most important thing about that scene is that she kills a human.

Some people make it sound like the game will be tackling real rape in ala "I Spit on Your Grave".
 

Able Seacat

New member
Jun 18, 2012
790
0
0
KRAKENDIE said:
Able Seacat said:
[

But she isn't actually raped there is only the threat of rape. Personally I think this one scene has been thrown out of proportion with no help from their marketing.
This conversation is not longer about that trailer. People fail to realize that the trailer was just a point of departure for a discussion about the culture of video games and gamers.
Still makes your point invalid. You said Lara wouldn't arm herself and return to these kind of places if she were raped which I agree with but she wasn't.
 

Scorpid

New member
Jul 24, 2011
814
0
0
My only complaint with the trailer isn't that it's sexist, (it isn't. Being ear deep in shit is not a female only issue) but it's looks like an awesome movie, but some what of a scripted set piece driven game.