Poll: Lawful-Good vs Chaotic Good: Which is better?

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annoyinglizardvoice

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On a moral level, it depends on the situation.
To play in a game, I find alignments cheapen and simplify the mindset of the characters too much to be worth bothering about.
 

Fishyash

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Chaotic good because law (not literal law, but the idea of following a certain code, being truthful and keeping your promises) can sometimes get in the way of what's right. Sometimes you make a promise, but things aren't as they seem. Sure, you may not be as trusted when you are chaotic good, but that won't stop you from doing the right thing. I think it's the result that counts, not how it's done.

I'd say because of that, it would be easier to play a chaotic good character than a lawful good character. Dilemas come much more easily (the idea of doing the right thing vs following the law) as a lawful good character.

Honestly though, I love the lawful evil alignment most. It's just so awesome.
 

irishmanwithagun

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Put this way, Lawful Good makes you some berk that picked Lawful Good. Chaotic Good makes you fucking Batman!
I rest my case.
 

RubyT

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If you play them to the book, an LG is impossible to deal with. By definition, an LG will have an internal code of honor that includes "never do bad things" and always be truthful and honorable. And that just doesn't work, especially in fantasy settings and quests.

A Lawful Evil char has no code of law that tells him to "never do good things". As long as his evil/selfish agenda is served in the end, he will save puppies from a fire and bring them to the orphanage and pets them with the children.
The LG does not have that flexibility.

He will be in constant moral dilemma to confront any chaotic characters in his party and he will never forget. It's not like in some media products, where an LG will turn a blind eye to the CG doing something fishy to further the quest. Like "I can't steal these horses that we need, but you can!"
No, by the books, he will refuse to let the thief steal the horses.

There are regularly spirited debates about whether the LG will actually try and stop the Lawful Evil character from stealing bread for starving orphans.


irishmanwithagun said:
Chaotic Good makes you fucking Batman!
I'd argue that (Classic) Batman is Lawful Good, because he has a very tight code of honor that he painstakingly follows, he works with the police at all times (as long as they're not corrupt) and always hands criminals over to the law.

Lawful means playing by rules, it doesn't specifiy what they are.
 

IamQ

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The thing is, when you hear Chaotic good, it sounds pretty rad, but when you think about it, it's basically

"Someone has commited an act of crime? Rape the evildoers."
 

TallanKhan

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Lawful good makes for a better story and more complex moral choices however chaotic good offers more freedom and variety so it depends on the kind of game your playing and the setting.
 

Gottesstrafe

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Lawful Evil and Neutral Good for me.

My ire with Lawful Good stems from the fact that you could very easily make an uncompromising tyrant that perpetrates heinous acts in the name of the Good and Lawful. They follow prescripts, that the law is naturally good and that it must be obeyed to ensure that good. Corruption must be routed out by working within the system, not outside the law. And yet corruption is preferable to chaos, because corruption can be worked at and reasoned with. The ends must be justified by the means. Good for hard working Commissioner Gordon and idealistic Harvey Dent types, very annoying to partner up with as a hero.

On the other hand, Chaotic Good could very well lead to the incredibly short-sighted type who might accidentally level an entire city block to rescue a little girl's kitten out of a tree. The type who would flout rules on principal, and perpetrate "good" acts without thinking of the consequences or bigger picture. I can very easily imagine a revolutionary chaotic good character that would lead the citizens of a slightly tyrannical but very stable government to its downfall. The well-meaning but thoughtless type of character who, after the opposing leaders were deposed of, have no clue how to rebuild infrastructure and essential services, plunging the country into anarchy as opposing factions rose to bloodily fill in the newly formed power vacuum. The ends justify the means, but I haven't really thought much beyond that. Say what you will about Lawful Good, at least they stick around.

These are just my own preconceptions at least, I'm not saying they're all like that. I've seen Lawful Good types played skillfully to make complex characters that are always trying to philosophize when the boundaries of good and lawful eventually part, and Chaotic Good played like Rorschach that eventually turn self destructive. It's just that the majority of players I've seen do Lawful Good play the "Smite All Evil No Matter What" and Chaotic Good like the happy go lucky doofus protected by plot convenience.
 

malestrithe

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Gottesstrafe said:
My ire with Lawful Good stems from the fact that you could very easily make an uncompromising tyrant that perpetrates heinous acts in the name of the Good and Lawful. They follow prescripts, that the law is naturally good and that it must be obeyed to ensure that good. Corruption must be routed out by working within the system, not outside the law. And yet corruption is preferable to chaos, because corruption can be worked at and reasoned with. The ends must be justified by the means. Good for hard working Commissioner Gordon and idealistic Harvey Dent types, very annoying to partner up with as a hero.
No it cannot lead to tyranny. Lawful Good will not allow it.

From D&D Essentials:

Lawful Good characters respect the authority of a personal code of conduct, laws, and leaders, and they believe that these code of laws are the best way of achieving one's ideals. Virtuous authority promotes the well-being of its subjects and prevents them from harming one another. Lawful Good characters believe just as strongly in the value of life, and they put MORE emphasis on the need for the powerful to protect and lift up the downtrodden. The exemplars of the lawful good alignment are shining champions of what's right, honorable, and true, risking or even sacrificing their own lives to stop the spread of evil in the world.

When leaders exploit their authority for personal gain, when laws grants privileged status to some citizens and reduce others to slavery or untouchable status, law has given into evil and just authority becomes tyranny. Lawful Good characters are not only capable of challenging injustice, but are morally bound to do so. However, such characters would prefer to work within the system to right such problems rather than resorting to lawless methods.
It does not matter what the king declares to the be lawful. Lawful good is not about society above all. It is about a just society being better for all people. If society prove itself unjust, Lawful Good steps in and fixes it.

Also, who says Lawful Good can't start a rebellion? They are perfectly capable of doing so. They prefer to change things from within, using rebellion as a last resort.

You are describing a Lawful Neutral character when you made this rote "Lawful Good" example. Lawful neutral is society above all.
 

ZexionSephiroth

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malestrithe said:
Gottesstrafe said:
My ire with Lawful Good stems from the fact that you could very easily make an uncompromising tyrant that perpetrates heinous acts in the name of the Good and Lawful. They follow prescripts, that the law is naturally good and that it must be obeyed to ensure that good. Corruption must be routed out by working within the system, not outside the law. And yet corruption is preferable to chaos, because corruption can be worked at and reasoned with. The ends must be justified by the means. Good for hard working Commissioner Gordon and idealistic Harvey Dent types, very annoying to partner up with as a hero.
No it cannot lead to tyranny. Lawful Good will not allow it.

From D&D Essentials:

Lawful Good characters respect the authority of a personal code of conduct, laws, and leaders, and they believe that these code of laws are the best way of achieving one's ideals. Virtuous authority promotes the well-being of its subjects and prevents them from harming one another. Lawful Good characters believe just as strongly in the value of life, and they put MORE emphasis on the need for the powerful to protect and lift up the downtrodden. The exemplars of the lawful good alignment are shining champions of what's right, honorable, and true, risking or even sacrificing their own lives to stop the spread of evil in the world.

When leaders exploit their authority for personal gain, when laws grants privileged status to some citizens and reduce others to slavery or untouchable status, law has given into evil and just authority becomes tyranny. Lawful Good characters are not only capable of challenging injustice, but are morally bound to do so. However, such characters would prefer to work within the system to right such problems rather than resorting to lawless methods.
It does not matter what the king declares to the be lawful. Lawful good is not about society above all. It is about a just society being better for all people. If society prove itself unjust, Lawful Good steps in and fixes it.

Also, who says Lawful Good can't start a rebellion? They are perfectly capable of doing so. They prefer to change things from within, using rebellion as a last resort.

You are describing a Lawful Neutral character when you made this rote "Lawful Good" example. Lawful neutral is society above all.
A point I found accidentally that helps yours; is a note I found somewhere about Paladins (as annoying as the idea is) that says that paladins are allowed to associate with any good or neutral alignments; but no evil ones.

As such, they can hang around Chaotic Good types, so long as they don't... Well... Do anything stupid. That says nothing about how well they get along though.

As such, maybe a little less focus on the weaknesses of each alignment would do this thread good.

For the record, I still prefer Chaotic Good. Freedom, Joy, and Kindness, are all rather along the lines of what I love most.

...

And as a side note, if the world were full of only one alignment, any of the good alignments would make the world a nice place to live. But personally I'd prefer the Chaotic Good world, it always sounds (both in my head and in what I read) a lot more fun.

-Not that Lawful Good wouldn't be too bad, it'd just be a bit more... subdued? From how I imagine it. I may be wrong though. I always seem to be when it comes to order. It's just that I don't picture a Lawful Good world as being the kind that has the kind of loud mouthed, passionate, boisterous, and somewhat mysterious, kinds of people I love.
 

ZexionSephiroth

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Some notes Pathfinder makes on Archons, which in Pathfinder are the Lawful Good Celestials. For the record, Please remember that because they are celestials, the description of them will be the extreme form of the alignment:
Archon:
-snip-
...These warriors of Law act honorably, even to their foes, but are not foolish or without passion, and little in the multiverse dares stand against the rage of heaven.

Although Archons are champions of good, they have little patience for those who do not follow strict traditions and patterns of goodness.

While a Cruel Dictatorship might legitimate enemy of the Archon, rebellion and riot is not the proper way to address such an inequality. Justice and law must not be abandoned in the constant struggle for peace and good, for in such anarchic actions one often promotes further harm and mayhem, even if unintentionally.

The laws of Heaven exist to minimize collateral damage and unwanted pain, and while adhering to these laws often results in longer campaigns, Archons point out that their victories are lasting triumphs as a result.

Because of this strong adherence to tradition and law, Archons often find themselves the unwilling enemies of Chaotic Good creatures, particularly the Azatas.

To an Archon, an Azata's nature seems whimsical and impatient-- in striking swiftly against an enemy without bothering to think through the implications of their sudden act, its possible to do more harm than good.

Still, while opposing the chaos of an Azata is a necessary step, the Archon takes no pleasure in such opposition, and does its best to minimize the length of such a conflict.

Unfortunately, the capricious and emotional Azatas are legendary among the Archons for their ability to hold grudges, so for many Archons the best Policy is to be brief, succinct, and firm.
Remembering that Archons are an extreme example, they do tend to show signs of some of the aspects I tend to complain about when it comes to Lawful good. Edit: scratch that, what i say next makes that invalid, by giving several strategies that would actually work and maintain order.

The main one is that of the dictator. (Why do we have to keep coming back to that?) where it says that Riot and rebellion is not the way to deal with him. In which case I can see two or three options for them that would fulfill their objectives swiftly; they work because one notes that the "laws of heaven" are not the laws of the king, so they need not follow his laws, but need follow their own.

1. March up to the king and apprehend him; using a force of strong men. Preferably not an entire army, but strong enough to deal with the guards. Leading to the kings possible execution.

2. Assassination... not much to say there. May require some level of justification in their code of good first though.

3. A "Non-Rebellion uprising". Where rather than becoming a disorganized mess of chaos, they organize the oppressed into a legitimate army, that can take down the Dictator while maintaining Lawful Good order.

Remember that not not all Lawful Good characters are going to be as extreme as an Archon, and that many may have minor lapses in order for the sake of good, but will ultimately return to trying to maintain order; as they believe that order is... better than chaos.

...

Hopefully I haven't mangled both sides of the argument at this point.

...

Personally, I think the Archons could be rubbing the Azatas the wrong way by being "firm". Its bound to rub them the wrong way.

Think about it. Chaotic Good hates it when people tell them, or anyone what to do. And unless its just to get their attention, this strategy is bound to cause problems.

...

I'm not really sure which I'm arguing for at this point. All I know is that I prefer Chaotic Good.

Sure, a Lawful Good way of running the world is probably better. But, I just find A Chaotic Good approach to individual people will always work better.

Imagine a lawful Good conversation, I imagine it would go like this:
Paladin 1: So, are the troops ready?
Paladin 2: Mostly, all we need is more weapons for the musketeers.
Paladin 1: The next shipment should arrive in the morning.
Paladin 2: I just hope we don't get ambushed.
Paladin 1: Those daemon scum are likely to pull such a trick. Make sure the Turret operators can stay awake, and get me those stim' packs, I don't want to fall asleep before they do.
Paladin 2:Yes sir. I presume the cigar form is good? It's all we've got left.
Paladin 1: It will do, for now.
I feel like that kind of conversation isn't exactly the kind that is going to be considered the most endearing. Its good for a grim setting, but I've rarely met someone who talked to others that way outside of a military setting. Its not particularly endearing.

Now let's try Chaotic Good:
Barbarian: Hey kid, Do the guys out there look ready to you?
Rogue: They look like they're riled up enough. But something seems missing.
Barbarian: Oh?
Rogue: Weapons. Seriously, not all of them can fight barehanded you know.
Barbarian: Don't worry, I sent the Knight to go grab some. He'll be back tomorrow, I just hope he didn't cut back on the Rum supplies to do it.
Rogue: I'm more worried about nightfall, the Daemons are likely to catch us of guard if we aren't careful. You seen some of them? Last time, I swore I saw one that looked like a drowned child.
Barbarian: Just load everyone who's on watch with stim' packs. That will do the trick. Which reminds me, mind if I have some? I have no intention of giving the Daemons the satisfaction of seeing me fall asleep before my men.
Rogue: Eh, I would, but all we've got left is those damn cigars the gunslingers brought in. I have discovered a more palatable method of using them though. They're filled with some kind of dried bean like stuff that when crushed and strained with hot water makes quite a nice drink. A bit bitter, but I just mixed in some of the Milk and sugar rations and it makes it taste divine.
Barbarian: Sound tasty, I'll take it. What do you call it?
Rogue: I've been thinking of calling it "coffee", I thought it was appropriate considering most people who try cigars get into coughing fits the first time.
Barbarian: You sly little- I'd hug you if you weren't so fragile.
I find that one slightly better.

Now note that I was doing both examples off the top of my head. So take that as you will.

...

Apart from that, I hate tradition. Lawful Good values Tradition according to most cases. And- yeah, you know what that means.
 

Zacharious-khan

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personaly i think this is one of the worst questions a person can ask about dnd. Although i think most aspects of dnd are like this but almost any time you have a choice there are usualy ups and downs that will balance depending on your GM and game setting. Although Chaotic good PC's have more freedom in game Lawful good PC's get along better with paladins, however if your GM has very little roleplaying or interacting with NPC's then Alignment doesn't matter almost at all.
 

ZexionSephiroth

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Zacharious-khan said:
personaly i think this is one of the worst questions a person can ask about dnd. Although i think most aspects of dnd are like this but almost any time you have a choice there are usualy ups and downs that will balance depending on your GM and game setting. Although Chaotic good PC's have more freedom in game Lawful good PC's get along better with paladins, however if your GM has very little roleplaying or interacting with NPC's then Alignment doesn't matter almost at all.
I tend to ask all the worst questions don't I? But then again, I think it helps me learn.
 

Zacharious-khan

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ZexionSephiroth said:
I tend to ask all the worst questions don't I? But then again, I think it helps me learn.
naw its natural for people to think of game in terms of optimization, especialy RPG fellows. However the thing that differs DnD from other games is that instead of a disc and computer running the game you have a human who is not bound by any rules and can wildly differ from another person running the same game. you cant optimize a fluid system especialy one that can be changed in any way at any time by the game master, seriously there is a chapter on "you fucked up and gave the PC's a weapon/artifact/magicything! that they should never have gotten, how i fix?" in the DM guide
 

von Ohzu

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"You hold in your grasp a mighty kingdom, but when death loosens your grip that kingdom will fall to the ground and shatter like fired clay.

I tell you the truth, great king, the well dug by the humblest farmer will live longer than both your flesh and your name. Chaos will rise to swallow even the memory of great Babylon.

This is because your kingdom is merely a king. The people serve not Babylon, not a greater love, not a higher law--only Hammurabi.

And Hammurabi is mere flesh.

Your word is law, but should that voice be stilled, where would your people turn for justice? You must codify your word, good king, you must place the rule of law above even yourself, above every king to follow.
...
Call scribes from every corner of your kingdom to write Hammurabi's code in stone and bronze.

And although you one day must die, your law will live long enough to see men ride great ships into the stars. "
 

Atmos Duality

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No alignments period.
I prefer being able to think outside of a narrowly prescribed spectrum of personas, never mind anything that's so invariably subject to debate.

But if you want the boring answer: Chaotic Good
Because a rebel with a cause is always more fun to play than the goody-good whom everyone abuses.
 

ZexionSephiroth

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I just Realized that most of my arguments against Lawful Good are straw-men. Which I almost acknowledged when I said "Archons are extreme examples". And somehow, even after that point my attempt to set Archons on fire as a straw-man for Lawful Good was torn apart... By myself when I realized "actually, now that I think about it, Archons are probably smart enough to use three strategies that are fairly quick, and still maintain a fair degree of order."

...Oops...

I'm gonna stop myself there, cause I'm not about to go 180 on my original stance, (although a slight deviation from my course is okay.) So let's get back to some ... more thought out reasons I prefer Chaotic good.

Chaotic Good Considers new ideas to be better than old ones. So strangely enough, they could be a greater force for improvement in society than Lawful Good, who favor tradition and proven ideas; right up until someone proves the new idea works to them.

So Chaotic Good ends up being the great innovators, experimenters, artists... most of the time. One proven or traditional thing can lead on into another, but probably not as quickly as a Chaotic Good Character that notices something nobody noticed before and goes "Hmm... this is Odd, I wonder... maybe it works due to [something]... I'll see if that works!"

The next is the Tradition part. I doubt many of us stick precisely to old traditions; I argue with my grandma every-time she asks me to say "please" as in today's context, I'd think it would sound like begging. (Although I'll still say "thanks", although she'll want a full "thank you").

Another point is that the Lawful Good's Focus on discipline can come across as forceful sometimes. When I still lived with my parents, my Parents would pressure me to eat something, and I'd spend a whole lot of time trying to get them to not bug me about it... And then when they finally leave the room, I'd take a bite out of my food... I think I reasoned that I didn't want people to watch me eat.

I touched on that last point with how I said I thought Azatas wouldn't like the Archons to be "firm" with them.

...And... That's all I got so far. But note that neither Discipline or tradition are necessarily bad things; just that they are a little intrusive sometimes... Or maybe a lot of the time, as Discipline is often meant to be intrusive; even if it's for the right reasons.
 

Victoly

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Alignment != roleplaying.

Alignment is a pretty dumb system overall. It has its uses, but they are few.