Poll: Lawful-Good vs Chaotic Good: Which is better?

[Legendsmith]

The way I see it, the polar alignments are actually similar to their polar opposite, the difference being motivation:
I'll give some illustrations:
First up, Chaotic Good and Lawful Evil

A Chaotic Good wizard king holds audience with 2 elders from two of his subject towns. These towns are having a major land/resource dispute.
The wizard king, knowing that these towns have had many other minor disputes, decides that they can not be allowed to remain together. So he teleports the towns to new locations much like their old one, except far away from each other on the edges of his kingdom. They won't be having land disputes anymore.

Now, assume the same situation, except that the wizard king in question is Lawful Evil.
The Lawful evil wizard king teleports the towns to new locations far away from each other, except that the new locations are very harsh enviroments; the townsfolk will have to work hard to survive; they won't have time to have land disputes with anyone.

Next: Lawful Good and Chaotic Evil:
A lawful good knight has an heirloom of great worth stolen from him. He travels across the lands to retrieve it, because justice must be served.
Along the way he finds that others have had things stolen from them by the same antagonist. He decides to get those things back for their owners too, thus building his reputation for honour. He also gains some companions by doing some other good things along the way.

A chaotic evil mercenary has an heirloom sword stolen from him. He travels across the lands to retrieve it, because nobody steals from him and gets away with it: He has a reputation to maintain.
Along the way he finds that others have had things stolen from them by the same antagonist. He kills them and decides to take their things for himself when he finds the antagonist. He also gains some powerful items by killing their owners along the way.

Neither is "better". Lawful good is not Good+

 

[gmaverick019_v1legacy]

I always saw "Lawful Good" as "Lawful first, Good second".

So IMO Chaotic Good is the true "Do what is right, whatever the circumstance". Not because "the law" told you to.

agreed, especially in a monarchy type setting, the king can essentially tell you to do whatever, because he IS the law

human beings are much more complex then that, and i prefer to go with my gut then leave it up to some stupid law.

 

[malestrithe]

okay, I'm seeing this pop up here and there but I thought it were CLERICS and not paladins that were tied to a deity.

I thought paladins upheld goodness as their sole belief and faith and not, say, Moradin for example.

Maybe in Pathfinder, but AD&D Paladins were chosen by a Deity to uphold virtue, honor, and such and such. That description gives some leeway with who gets to inspire Paladins. Although it is implied that it is a Christian-like Deity that does it, it does not exactly forbid other deities from having their own orders as well.

 

[Spygon]

"What is better - to be born good, or to overcome your evil nature through great effort"

Being good because you want to is be always better than being good because your told to be.

 

[malestrithe]

I always saw "Lawful Good" as "Lawful first, Good second".

So IMO Chaotic Good is the true "Do what is right, whatever the circumstance". Not because "the law" told you to.

agreed, especially in a monarchy type setting, the king can essentially tell you to do whatever, because he IS the law

human beings are much more complex then that, and i prefer to go with my gut then leave it up to some stupid law.

You just described Lawful Neutral, not Lawful Good.

Think Order, Law. Order vs Chaos is the more apt description. Why do you think the opposite is Chaos and not anarchy?

Lawful Good thinks Order is the best way to have a just society. That's it. It says nothing about swearing fealty to a monarch in the description. They will serve just kings, but are quick to get rid of unjust ones.

Lawful Good is not Lawful Stupid. "Well he's the king, so I must follow his orders" is a great way to get yourself killed.

 

[thereverend7]

I never got into D&D, as much as I would love to. Is there a way to go over to another alignment after a while? for instance, switching to lawful from chaotic? Because Lawful sounds like an ideal, something to stride towards, but it's hardly practical, as you pointed out. Nothing is as black and white as being lawful requires of it. but it would be interesting for someone with their own moral compass working towards being a beacon of light to others.

Gun to my head, I would pick lawful, though. It sounds like the kind of person I strive towards being, although right now im more "chaotic" as I have my own moral compass and while I try to do the right thing, some of it wouldn't be.... acceptable, to most people.

But what do I know? I probably just made 100 D&D fans shit themselves when they read this.

 

[Siege_TF]

I never got into D&D, as much as I would love to. Is there a way to go over to another alignment after a while? for instance, switching to lawful from chaotic? Because Lawful sounds like an ideal, something to stride towards, but it's hardly practical, as you pointed out. Nothing is as black and white as being lawful requires of it. but it would be interesting for someone with their own moral compass working towards being a beacon of light to others.

Gun to my head, I would pick lawful, though. It sounds like the kind of person I strive towards being, although right now im more "chaotic" as I have my own moral compass and while I try to do the right thing, some of it wouldn't be.... acceptable, to most people.

But what do I know? I probably just made 100 D&D fans shit themselves when they read this.

Lawful tends to be people hidebound by some sort of code; Paladins, (good) Clerics, Monks, etc.

If playing with reasonable people then Lawful, if playing with living stereotypes then Chaotic.

 

[gmaverick019_v1legacy]

I always saw "Lawful Good" as "Lawful first, Good second".

So IMO Chaotic Good is the true "Do what is right, whatever the circumstance". Not because "the law" told you to.

agreed, especially in a monarchy type setting, the king can essentially tell you to do whatever, because he IS the law

human beings are much more complex then that, and i prefer to go with my gut then leave it up to some stupid law.

You just described Lawful Neutral, not Lawful Good.

Think Order, Law. Order vs Chaos is the more apt description. Why do you think the opposite is Chaos and not anarchy?

Lawful Good thinks Order is the best way to have a just society. That's it. It says nothing about swearing fealty to a monarch in the description. They will serve just kings, but are quick to get rid of unjust ones.

Lawful Good is not Lawful Stupid. "Well he's the king, so I must follow his orders" is a great way to get yourself killed.

makes sense,

but, just curious, paladins are usually sworn to uphold a deity or something as such (their source of faith/power), what if the deity suggests or gives them by some divine power to crush all people who have 2 uncles? would the lawful good paladin have to adhere to such a thing, or would they rise against such an order and refuse to do it?

 

[malestrithe]

"What is better - to be born good, or to overcome your evil nature through great effort"

Being good because you want to is be always better than being good because your told to be.

Following what's right is the precept of all good alignments. What's at issue is society's place in the world. Lawful Good thinks a just society is best for all people. They do that by making sure the law is applied fairly to everyone. They do not tolerate corruption and actively try to get rid of the bad elements. Chaotic Good just has no place in society.

Following orders without question is what Neutral alignments do. Lawful Neutral tends to think the law is the law regardless of situation.

 

[DocBalance]

Lawful Evil with high ranks in Persuasion means I can convince everyone else that I'm Lawful Good while still getting whatever I want. I don't see a downside here.

makes sense,

but, just curious, paladins are usually sworn to uphold a deity or something as such (their source of faith/power), what if the deity suggests or gives them by some divine power to crush all people who have 2 uncles? would the lawful good paladin have to adhere to such a thing, or would they rise against such an order and refuse to do it?

In theory that wouldn't be a Good Aligned god. Wanton slaughter of innocents would place him/her in the deep end of the alignment pool, and thus would require the Paladin to fall to a Blackguard to serve them. If the god were to fall while the Paladin is in its service, then it would be within a Lawful Good Paladin's code to forsake the actual god in favor of the precepts that god used to stand for, at the very least temporarily losing their class bonuses due to a lack of divine strength but keeping their technical classification should they find a new patron

 

[newdarkcloud]

I'd prefer Chaotic Good. In your King example, Lawful Good would be the person who would attempt to dissuade the king, then look for a legal loophole to dethrone him. If that failed, he'd raise an army and wage war.

But Chaotic Good would be so much more fun. After trying to convince the king and failing, a Chaotic Good could just drop a Bomb in the king's pants or poison his morning coffee. Much more interesting and appealing (to me) options.

 

[saintdane05]

Lawful Evil, all other alignments are "meh" at best.

Other than that, I can just point out that Sam Vimes from the Discworld could be Lawful Good. I wouldn't mind that.

This.

Or Chaotic Good. Seeing as that is the same alignment as Drizzt Do'urden, or "That Guy Who Everyone Bases Their Drow On."

 

[Pharsalus]

Chaotic, sometimes doing a good thing isn't doing the "right" thing.

 

[Hagi]

Lawful good is superior by far.

Lawful good is capable of creating societies that will last and protect those within them as long as they live. They won't be perfect societies and the good done within them won't match that of chaotic good for short periods of time, but on the long term they will do much more good.

Chaotic good will come along every now and then and help where it can. But then it will pack up and leave again. It will never provide a lasting benefit for everyone because doing so would not be chaotic, you will never be able to depend on chaotic good. That will be left to lawful good, something you can count on.

Lawful good means teaching men how to fish.
Chaotic good means handing out fishes and then leaving again.

You can never ever depend on chaotic good because chaos is at it's very essence undependable.

 

[Seives-Sliver]

I prefer Lawful Good myself. Though I'm closer to Chaotic Good than anything else, Lawful Good must hold itself up to certain ideals that form a coherent society, they are more like a Justicar, or a policeman. Chaotic Good would be closer to vigilantism, and while vigilantes are needed when people go corrupt, or when there are times when justice's arm does not reach far enough for certain people, a Chaotic Good person should be held more accountable for their actions, even if their heart is in the right place, we still need rules, and laws to keep innocents safe.

Well! There was my two and a half cents, now onto the new Zero-P!

 

[malestrithe]

makes sense,

but, just curious, paladins are usually sworn to uphold a deity or something as such (their source of faith/power), what if the deity suggests or gives them by some divine power to crush all people who have 2 uncles? would the lawful good paladin have to adhere to such a thing, or would they rise against such an order and refuse to do it?

Depends on the setting I guess. Most Paladins in D&D are based on Carlesmagne and King Arthur, so it won't be possible that way.

If you have alternate paladins from alternate deities, I supposed it could be possible for that. Although, as a GM I probably would established two other types of Paladins to accommodate less savory deities: True Neutral and Chaotic Evil paladins would be similar to Lawful Good paladins, but have few changes to them. True Neutral Paladins would favor intelligence over wisdom, but are able to use Bardic knowledge skills instead of lay on hands. They would not get cleric abilities, but something else besides, maybe some thief skills. Chaotic Evil Paladins would favor Con, but also can inspire fear instead of turn undead. They keep cleric abilities, however.

 

[Bara_no_Hime]

A few of us have played games with alignment systems, and the codifier of this is Dungeons and Dragons, who gave us an alignment system that included both Good vs Evil, and Law vs Chaos.

Now I'm sure many of the more idealistic among us would want to play a good character, but Neutral Good sounds like such a boring character to be in, yet alone role-play without great effort.

...I think you know where this is going...

I pose a question... What is the Best Lopsided Good alignment?

I generally consider Neutral Good to be the best or "goodest" good - unlike the others, such a character is never thrown into conflict with law/chaos.

On the other hand, I find Lawful Good the most fun to play. Angst ahoy! Conflict between duty and honor (do I accept the duel, and risk leaving my charge unprotected, or run away and tarnish my honor) makes for fun RP conundrums.

I have four Paladin-like characters in my list of often-played characters, and that is because their issues are the most fun part.

I also have a neutral good Cleric who is far nicer (and gooder) than any of them. She is fun to play for other reasons (she's a pacifist - she uses Enchantment (Charm Domain) to avoid having to hurt humanoid enemies if she can).

 

[malestrithe]

I never got into D&D, as much as I would love to. Is there a way to go over to another alignment after a while? for instance, switching to lawful from chaotic? Because Lawful sounds like an ideal, something to stride towards, but it's hardly practical, as you pointed out. Nothing is as black and white as being lawful requires of it. but it would be interesting for someone with their own moral compass working towards being a beacon of light to others.

In AD&D, it was possible to force Alignment changes onto players. If a character does not act in accordance to their alignment, the DM told them their alignment is not such and such. When that happens, they lose a level immediately and gain no experience in the adventure.

However, Law is not what's at the issue. Order is what's at issue. Lawful Good thinks Order is the best way to attain a just world. Society is one way of doing that, but there are other ways to attaining order. It does not mean go along with it,. It means apply the law fairly and equally when rules are present. It means work to stop corruption. It also means getting rid of evil when it presents itself.

Chaotic characters have their best interests at heart. Chaotic Good does the right thing, but is not above being a little selfish from time to time. The only thing that matters to them are friends and family, but will fight oppression when they see it.

 

[Spygon]

"What is better - to be born good, or to overcome your evil nature through great effort"

Being good because you want to is be always better than being good because your told to be.

Following what's right is the precept of all good alignments. What's at issue is society's place in the world. Lawful Good thinks a just society is best for all people. They do that by making sure the law is applied fairly to everyone. They do not tolerate corruption and actively try to get rid of the bad elements. Chaotic Good just has no place in society.

Following orders without question is what Neutral alignments do. Lawful Neutral tends to think the law is the law regardless of situation.

I would disagree with that i feel that as all you "Good guys" seem to struggle with is as everything good is subjective to the situation.That might be the Chaotic Neutral in me but when lawful good comes to a point where its there perception of society vs good in the view of the "good" people they can easily be blinkered by others to do things that are "evil" for the "good" of the group.

While Chaotic good is backed up by a personal view on "good" and have a none biased view on the subject.

Also lawful neutral is not following what your told because you believe they are good.But doing what your told because you will follow higher authority even if personally you feel the actions are good or bad.This is going to sound bad but like most developed nations armed forces as there missions are for the better of their nations not for the betterment of good or bad.

This is why i feel that the concept of "good" and "bad" is ridiculous.