Poll: Male reproductive rights

[Epona]

Marriage is a contract.

And breaking it often results in hefty penalties. Like half your stuff is gone.

And I would like to point out that males DO have authority over the creation of a child. Nothing stops a male from wearing a condom, encouraging the use of spermicidal lubricants, other forms of sexual contact (as vulgar as this sounds, you cant get pregnant from oral/anal sex), or getting a vasectomy.

Its all about responsibility. Yes, it does kind of suck that a woman has the majority of rights when it comes to child birthing. Then again, men dont have to let another human grow inside of them for 9 months, then push them out of a hole that is tipically smaller than a quarter. And if you want to have sex for fun, I dont blame you. But nothing says you have to be an idiot about having sex for fun - if you dont take any precautions, its all on you for messing up.

While I do agree it kind of sucks that a child is born without a loving family, adoption is always an option. I think thats a more fair tradeoff- letting a couple who might not be able to have kids have a child - then never allowing a child see the light of day because one of the parents wasn't into it.

A woman has to live with getting an abortion for the rest of her life. It is not an easy decision to make, and often sends them through emotional distress. The man, on the other hand, does not have to live with the guilt. He doesnt have to go into an abortion clinic, and endanger his body or mental wellbeing. Getting abortions is not healthy for the body, in the least bit.

What you offer as an alternative just shifts the burden from the man, who could have easily prevented this from happening in the first place, and puts it on the woman. While she could have just as easily prevented this, the act of childbirth takes more out of a woman than a man.

Women file for most divorces and are rewarded for it.

 

[Alex Gray]

Ok, let's look at it from the other point of view. The father wants the kid, the mother doesn't. Does the father therefore have to right to demand that the mother goes to term because the child is half his? This is basically what you are asking, that there should be equal weighting with regard to who has final say over whether the child is born or not.

News flash! A man doesn't have to give birth, a man doesn't have to go through 9 months of pregancy, a man can jump ship whenever he likes during those 9 months because he doesn't have a human being growing inside them!

To force another to go through either an abortion or a birth against their will is not right regardless of the rights of the father. If a man doesn't want a woman to get pregant he should take the nessasary steps to stop it happening as the woman would take steps to stop herself from getting pregant. If both parties take responsibility for this then if one is negligant (or goodness forbid deceptive and want a child to result without mutral concent) then they are still fine.

I am not particularly impressed by your assertion that single mothers are only in it for themselves and use their personal believes that abotion is murder as an excuse.

As I always say, sex IS meant for one thing and one thing only biologically, and that's making children. Sorry to break it to you, but this is the case. The fact that people do it for pleasure is not it's intended use.

If women really do have this level of hatred and resentment toward men, maybe we SHOULD form separate societies a la Macross. Hurry up with the non-gamete cloning and libido inhibitors already, scientists!

 

[Dys]

I can't see how it's fair to force a woman to have an abortion, but I don't think that its fair for a man to not be able to opt out of being involved with the child before it's born. Basically, if the man signs a legally binding document (like a stat dec) agreeing to keep out of the childs and mothers life before the child is delivered, then that's something else, and I'm apparently not the first person to think so.

Force a woman to have an abortion? No way. Her body.

Allow a man to renounce all his rights as a father/boyfriend/husband, for ever, and have a lifelong restraining order keeping him away from both mother and child, in exchange for not having to pay alimony? Yes, I could get behind that. But only if he's legally forced to never go near the child or mother again - otherwise, abuse and loopholes could arise. This would simply modify alimony laws, rather than create new ways of intervening in our personal lives.

If she refuses to take a birth control pill, then either wear a rubber or don't stick it in at all. It's not difficult.

How could anyone possibly know what their partner (particularly in a one off or casal relationship) is taking and what they are not. Just because you may think you know someone does not by any stretch mean you can predict their behavior or honesty. The current system heavily neglects the choice of a man, isn't the whole point of not being sexist so that one gender does not have control over another? If men are powerless to the (maternal) wants of women, then women have power over men, and that is every bit as detestable as men having power over women.

 

[RachaelIsaacHill]

EDIT: It's sad that so far over 85 people think this is a good idea. Just don't have sex in a way that can lead to pregnancy if you don't want to deal with the chance of having to be a responsible adult.Think about it. Be creative. The internet is full of ideas in this regard.

Think about it this way. Do you really want someone stupid enough to knock up a girl and realize he doesn't want to a kid to spread his genes?

Oh yeah, sure... think about it this way... lets just kill the people we think are stupid. Stop them before they cause problems. We can set up a test at age 16, if the fail it, they die!

Great ideas!

/sarcasm

Nah, it'd be a point system. Too many stupid points means you are a detriment to the human race. Things like driving drunk and having unprotected sex for the lols would give you points.

I'm only half joking. God I hate stupid people so much.

Eugenics, you know who else in history supported that too, right?

There's actually a logical fallacy involved when things eventually devolve down to comparing to Hitler. And this isn't eugenics. Eugenics suggests that some people are genetically superior to others. Hitler didn't give jews a system by which to prove how jew-ey or non-jewey they were. (Well, he kind of did, but it had nothing to do with the actions of the person, only their genetics). I'm saying, we have jails for people to go to when they've done enough bad stuff. I'm not suggesting we kill all the people who have proved to be too dumb to live (forgive the saying), but perhaps revoking the right to procreate after you've proven you will be terrible at it might not be a bad idea.

Here ya go:

eu·gen·ics
   [yoo-jen-iks] Show IPA
?noun ( used with a singular verb )
the study of or belief in the possibility of improving the qualities of the human species or a human population, especially by such means as discouraging reproduction by persons having genetic defects or presumed to have inheritable undesirable traits (negative eugenics) or encouraging reproduction by persons presumed to have inheritable desirable traits (positive eugenics).

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/eugenics

Murder is not a requirement of eugenics. In fact, by definition, eugenics is just as YOU have described your ideas. To deny procreation of those whom you think are "stupid".

I have been corrected. I stand here before you as a fan of eugenics.

I know you all think I'm a terrible person because of this, but let me make myself clear. People with mental disabilities are not 'stupid'. People who grew up in a bad area without proper education and without a means to better themselves are not 'stupid'. We are all at the mercy of the circumstances of our birth.

However, people that should know better and don't. People that drink and drive, thinking 'it won't happen to me'. People that have unprotected sex because they would rather take that risk than be inconvenienced in any way. People that take advantage of their government, friends, or situation as an excuse to be lazy or otherwise worthless to society. These are the stupid people of the world.

We test for competence in many areas. We ask that certain requirements such as age and proof of intelligence be met for many things in society such as drinking, driving, renting cars and houses, and working. Is it such a stretch, or even a bad thing, to require this of procreation as well?

Yes it is because procreation is a right granted by God/Nature. It is not for the government to take away.

Noooooooooooooooooooo, no no no no no. Nature will inevitably weed out the stupid members of a species. Humans looked at nature and spat on it's face when we started building houses, growing crops and breeding animals to suit our needs. We practice eugenics every day when we select breed dogs, cats, cattle, and other animals. Humans curb-stomped nature into submission thousands of years ago.

And don't even bring God into this. I believe in God myself, but please. Don't. The smart people are laughing at you.

 

[Alex Gray]

And real, non-Internet women are SO open to trying new things in the bedroom.

Think about it a minute... without turning this thread X rated (any more) you should be able to list at least 4 normal and acceptable ways that any regular couple could...

You know what, never mind. This website isn't the place for this. PM me if you can't figure this out on your own.

Knowing how to do it and being willing to do it aren't even in the same zip code. For example, somebody upthread mentioned mutual oral. Woman-on-man oral... commands a very high price on the open market, I'll put it that way. Man-on-woman oral often requires little more incentive than the awareness that the man will actually get to see and touch the relevant area on the woman.

Men's and women's libidos and general feelings about sex are very, very different. Go on, show me evidence that they're basically similar.

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

Bear in mind that I'm pro-choice here, but you have to see the inherent hypocrisy in what you're saying.

Sorry but running away from your responsibilities just because you don't feel you can spare some cash isn't the same thing as making the difficult choice to have an abortion.

you really don't see how uneven it is? if a woman doesn't want a child she can choose to abort or adopt, with or without her partners consent. if a man gets a woman pregnant and doesn't want it, he still needs to pay for it. how is it fair that the woman can give up responsibility for the child, but the man can't? they are both as responsible for the conception

yes, it is running away from your responsibilities. but if women are allowed to run away from their responsibilities, why can't men? it is hypocritical to say that women can give the responsibility to raise a child, but men cannot

It's her body that's the difference in it's entirity.

You can't force a woman to have an abortion or even to give birth that's horrific and probably against human rights. Most men who complain about child support will never even bother with the child their entire lives apart from financially. A woman has to live everyday with the descision to have an abortion.

My sister had an abortion from a man who beat her. She still feels guilty about it and considers it traumatic. It's not the carefree decision you seem to think it is.

 

[Epona]

Ok, let's look at it from the other point of view. The father wants the kid, the mother doesn't. Does the father therefore have to right to demand that the mother goes to term because the child is half his? This is basically what you are asking, that there should be equal weighting with regard to who has final say over whether the child is born or not.

News flash! A man doesn't have to give birth, a man doesn't have to go through 9 months of pregancy, a man can jump ship whenever he likes during those 9 months because he doesn't have a human being growing inside them!

To force another to go through either an abortion or a birth against their will is not right regardless of the rights of the father. If a man doesn't want a woman to get pregant he should take the nessasary steps to stop it happening as the woman would take steps to stop herself from getting pregant. If both parties take responsibility for this then if one is negligant (or goodness forbid deceptive and want a child to result without mutral concent) then they are still fine.

I am not particularly impressed by your assertion that single mothers are only in it for themselves and use their personal believes that abotion is murder as an excuse.

As I always say, sex IS meant for one thing and one thing only biologically, and that's making children. Sorry to break it to you, but this is the case. The fact that people do it for pleasure is not it's intended use.

Newsflash, a woman doesn't have to give birth, a woman doesn't have to go through 9 months of pregnancy, a woman can have an abortion as local law allows. Men on the other hand can't jump ship because if the child is born (her decision, not his) the state will track him down and make him into a wage slave with threat of imprisonment.

 

[A Weakgeek]

How is it 50/50 if the woman is forcing the man to pay for a child he didin't want to get? In my case the woman can choose to either take or not take the child, not causing anymore mischief to either one. What I'm trying to say is that the woman has more control over protection than the man, and we still make it solely the mans responsibility.

Do you actually read the shit you type? How is it that the women has more control over protection then the man. Protection is a preventative measure and both are equally responsible for using or not using birth control.

We do not make is solely the mans responsibility as you seem to be forgetting the fact that the women is raising the child. Also do you honestly think that child support comes anywhere near the amount of money it costs to raise a kid. It is based off of a percentage of the fathers income.

Do not be offended, that was not my aim, and sincerely sorry if you are. But as I see it the child is the womans responsibility if she decides to raise the child. (Again if the man doesent wish to raise a child but she keeps it anyway) But if the woman takes an abortion then i think the man should pay atleast half, since it would be unfair to force the woman pay more than the man.

As the protection thing, I admit I should have been more clear. Since men have only 1 of protection (Condom), which is clearly visible, woman has things like pills that aren't visible giving the woman a change to lie. But I agree both parties are equally responsible, but the woman can more easily abuse this, if the man trusts her enough. This is how a situation can happen where the woman forces a child on the man. (Or morelikely the burden of paying support)

To finish off my post, I respect your opinion, and again say that I'm sorry if you are offended or feel like I'm attacking you. I wish just to have a discussion, and if for one reason or another you are not comfortable discussing this, I in no way urge you to continue.

 

[Epona]

Bear in mind that I'm pro-choice here, but you have to see the inherent hypocrisy in what you're saying.

Sorry but running away from your responsibilities just because you don't feel you can spare some cash isn't the same thing as making the difficult choice to have an abortion.

you really don't see how uneven it is? if a woman doesn't want a child she can choose to abort or adopt, with or without her partners consent. if a man gets a woman pregnant and doesn't want it, he still needs to pay for it. how is it fair that the woman can give up responsibility for the child, but the man can't? they are both as responsible for the conception

yes, it is running away from your responsibilities. but if women are allowed to run away from their responsibilities, why can't men? it is hypocritical to say that women can give the responsibility to raise a child, but men cannot

It's her body that's the difference in it's entirity.

You can't force a woman to have an abortion or even to give birth that's horrific and probably against human rights. Most men who complain about child support will never even bother with the child their entire lives apart from financially. A woman has to live everyday with the descision to have an abortion.

My sister had an abortion from a man who beat her. She still feels guilty about it. It's not the carefree decision you seem to think it is.

Really, MOST men who complain about child support will never bother with the child itself? Got evidence to back that up?

Ever heard of PAS? Might wanna look that up while your at it.

 

[Ariseishirou]

I love the answer that comes up every time this thread is done.

Woman doesn't want child: Use contraceptive, have abortion, give for adoption

Man doesn't want child: Don't have sex. Ever. In fact, just go cut your penis off.

Totally fair option. After we establish this maybe we cah start on reproductive genetic engineering so we can eliminate the male population and continue the species as a single-sexed entity.

Of course he can still have sex. Just not vaginal sex. I think I can speak for most women in that we're perfectly willing to give oral if the man is willing to reciprocate. Seriously, there are a hundred ways that you can still have sex that have zero risk of resulting in pregnancy. Stop being dramatic - no one is asking you to cut your dick off.

 

[Sporky111]

I'm so happy I'm gay. I don't have to worry about accidental pregnancy (unless it's really accidental). No psycho chicks poking holes in condoms, or zealots refusing to get an abortion, or dumbass guys who don't know enough not to stick their dick in something without being prepared for possible consequences.

Okay, so I'm definitely not exempt from the last one.

 

[Shadow-Phoenix]

I think it's more efficient to plan first before wanting a child instead of spreading your gene without proper planning.

 

[RachaelIsaacHill]

Bear in mind that I'm pro-choice here, but you have to see the inherent hypocrisy in what you're saying.

Sorry but running away from your responsibilities just because you don't feel you can spare some cash isn't the same thing as making the difficult choice to have an abortion.

you really don't see how uneven it is? if a woman doesn't want a child she can choose to abort or adopt, with or without her partners consent. if a man gets a woman pregnant and doesn't want it, he still needs to pay for it. how is it fair that the woman can give up responsibility for the child, but the man can't? they are both as responsible for the conception

yes, it is running away from your responsibilities. but if women are allowed to run away from their responsibilities, why can't men? it is hypocritical to say that women can give the responsibility to raise a child, but men cannot

It's her body that's the difference in it's entirity.

You can't force a woman to have an abortion or even to give birth that's horrific and probably against human rights. Most men who complain about child support will never even bother with the child their entire lives apart from financially. A woman has to live everyday with the descision to have an abortion.

My sister had an abortion from a man who beat her. She still feels guilty about it and considers it traumatic. It's not the carefree decision you seem to think it is.

My dad raised me better than my mom did, all while paying child support to my mom who used it to pay her own bills. Don't assume men are the ones being dicks here. Women can be selfish too.

 

[BabyRaptor]

Snip

No. Nobody but the woman should have any permanent say over what she does with her body. There are no laws stating what men can and can't do with their dicks, so why should there be any for womens' vaginas?

I understand what you're saying, and I support the idea. But it should only be done if there's a way that it can be done without the woman losing her autonomy. The guy isn't going to be stuck carrying, birthing and raising the child.

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

Really, MOST men who complain about child support will never bother with the child itself? Got evidence to back that up?

Ever heard of PAS? Might wanna look that up while your at it.

My dad raised me better than my mom did, all while paying child support to my mom who used it to pay her own bills. Don't assume men are the ones being dicks here. Women can be selfish too.

If they do actually interact with the child then they are taking responsibilty and have nothing to do with my argument if you read my other posts.

If your mum was defrauding the child support then she should have been arrested, simple as.

 

[Alex Gray]

I think I can speak for most women in that we're perfectly willing to give oral if the man is willing to reciprocate.

No, no you can't. Most women would rather eat a gun barrel, especially if there's the tiniest chance they might have to taste male fluid.

Seriously, there are a hundred ways that you can still have sex that have zero risk of resulting in pregnancy. Stop being dramatic - no one is asking you to cut your dick off.

If you're female and actually open to any of those ways, you are very, very unusual and should waste no time in accumulating a subservient man-harem if you haven't already.

 

[illusive Fox]

It should be illegal for a woman to give birth to a child without a signed consent from the biological father.

This translates to that there should be a law that forces a woman to have an abortion against her will. Abortion even when chosen willingly is a health risk and mentally & emotionally crushing.

The whole concept is ridiculously unneeded as there are far easier ways to prevent unwanted pregnancy and compromises the rights of one individual to satisfy the rights of another(even if you think the current way is also unfair, this proposal is far more damaging).

Women have the leading vote on whether or not they have an abortion because they, biologically speaking, are far more involved. Men just spread genetic material. A woman invests her whole body into it (time, career, health).


Ethically; Both the parents have a say in the matter
Lawfully; This sort of thing IS illegal, it diminishes the rights, integrity and health of an individual
(De Facto- women's choice final)

 

[Alex Gray]

I'm so happy I'm gay. I don't have to worry about accidental pregnancy (unless it's really accidental). No psycho chicks poking holes in condoms, or zealots refusing to get an abortion, or dumbass guys who don't know enough not to stick their dick in something without being prepared for possible consequences.

Okay, so I'm definitely not exempt from the last one.

Seriously, if homosexual intercourse could result in reproduction (c'mon, cloning technology!), I would say that heterosexuality has almost become maladaptive.

 

[RachaelIsaacHill]

Really, MOST men who complain about child support will never bother with the child itself? Got evidence to back that up?

Ever heard of PAS? Might wanna look that up while your at it.

My dad raised me better than my mom did, all while paying child support to my mom who used it to pay her own bills. Don't assume men are the ones being dicks here. Women can be selfish too.

If they do actually interact with the child then they are taking responsibilty and have nothing to do with this thread.

I just want to get this off the whole 'men are evil bwah' mindset and remind everyone that deadbeat parents go the other way too.