Poll: Manifest Destiny

[Apone]

Well, aren't all of you perfect examples of why democracy is so great? I mean, if you lived in, say, China, and said something like, say, "Oh, the Chinese government sucks," then they would throw you in jail. But because the American system of democracy is based on the idea of rule of the majority while still protecting the minority. The system, of course, is not perfect. Nothing really is. But it's still FAR better than anything else in this world.

And I find it laughable that anyone in Europe could possibly think to criticize the US for anything we've ever done, considering the history of suffering most countries in Europe have visited on the world.

Yes but thats the past. You learn from the mistakes of others and become better people. You don't say "well you did it 200 years ago so it's ok for us now!"

Also we didn't elect the people behind the British Empire since we weren't born. The American people have the ability to vote for who is in power, and thankfully that has been realised with the new president elect.

 

[frozenshad]

because this idea worked so well with the Native Americans right?.... right?

 

[Milford Cubicle]

@Guy with awful avatar that resembles a union jack with turd on it (Milford Cubicle)

No, prove god dosen't exist. Please.

Oh, and prove that some people can't handle government. Personally, I think that's just your middle-class bullshit, trying to scrape a little superiority over the working classes by crying 'THEY HAVE NOT THE ABILITY TO GOVERN THEMSELVES!' at the top of your lungs. If we got rid of the tabloid media and actually educated them, then they'd be fine.

Afraid I can't really prove that God doesn't exist no more than you or anyone else can prove he does. But that's neither here nor there.

I'm not middle-class either. I just know a fucking idiot when I see one. Regardless of this foolish notion of class that the British seem so obsessed with.

Oh, and comparing the British Empire to rape is a rather pathetic argument. It's a blatant attempt to use senseless rhetoric as opposed to actually, y'know, discussing. And I'd say we have the right- Where slavery still exists, we will intervene. When our ships are pirated and our wealth stolen, we will intervene. When our interests are threatened, we will intervene.

I didn't compare the British Empire to a rapist. I said on the whole, the British Empire was a good thing. What I said was, just because the British Army (but it could have been any army) had imposed their will on several countries, it still didn't make it right.

Responding to threats is a completely different matter altogether than imposing your will.

Don't you get is? International law is a joke. Rights and so on are a joke. The only regulation on one country is a more powerful country. And since we have America on our side....

Regardless of whether you think International Law is a joke, it doesn't mean we can just ignore it. Might doesn't make right. It's of little wonder people around the world hate America and increasingly Great Britian.

If some random country invaded Britain and took over, would you just accept it? They were clearly more powerful than Britain.

 

[sheic99]

So....manifest destiny. It's the belief that it is our (American's) god given right to spread the American system of government out to the world. However, I disagree with that.

I believe that a nation's government will eventually progress into something near democracy. With manifest destiny you force democracy on the nation. So what it boils down to is you learning how to fish vs. someone giving you a fish. What do you think? Sorry if this isn't very clear. Its pretty late over here.

(Note: I know lots of you on the Escapist aren't American. Is this an accepted belief in your countries also?)

As I remember Manifest Destiny is the god given right for westward expansion.

You don't seem to understand what Manifest Destiny is. Manifest Destiny is the belief that the world belongs to white Christians, and no one else. Every other thing placed on earth, whether they're human or not, are put on the earth to serve them. They used this belief to justify their acts of genocide and slavery when they took over America and enslaved the Africans.

Manifest Destiny was an American belief. I'm fairly sure the English had something similar, but not quite the same.

 

[LewsTherin]

The idea of Manifest Destiny was just a modification of The White Man's Burden expanded by the Americans to include anyone who wasn't them. Oh, sure it STARTED with North America....

 

[Amund]

As I remember Manifest Destiny is the god given right for westward expansion.

You don't seem to understand what Manifest Destiny is. Manifest Destiny is the belief that the world belongs to white Christians, and no one else. Every other thing placed on earth, whether they're human or not, are put on the earth to serve them. They used this belief to justify their acts of genocide and slavery when they took over America and enslaved the Africans.

Manifest Destiny was an American belief. I'm fairly sure the English had something similar, but not quite the same.

Started with the Europeans, some of whom became American after a war.

 

[sequio]

How do you impose free will? Or not impose on another with no free will? As far as imposing American democracy is concerned, 1) it's not a democracy and 2) you can't impose democracy. America is run under a constitutional republic with a democratic process. In other words, the constitution is the law of the land, and the trivialities underneath it are decided by a democracy i.e. everyone goes to court if they are charged, whether or not over 51% of Americans think he/she should not go to court. Of course this is without delving into how fucked up the government is right now.

 

[sheic99]

As I remember Manifest Destiny is the god given right for westward expansion.

You don't seem to understand what Manifest Destiny is. Manifest Destiny is the belief that the world belongs to white Christians, and no one else. Every other thing placed on earth, whether they're human or not, are put on the earth to serve them. They used this belief to justify their acts of genocide and slavery when they took over America and enslaved the Africans.

Manifest Destiny was an American belief. I'm fairly sure the English had something similar, but not quite the same.

Started with the Europeans, some of whom became American after a war.

Manifest Destiny did not start until c. 1840. All Americans from the American Revolution would have died.

 

[MONTGOMERYWOODRUFF69]

Ask a Native American what they think about this subject..

 

[PatientGrasshopper]

I don't agree with the whole premise of manifest destiny. Like the OP stated it is like teaching a man to fish rather than giving him a fish. If we can encourage other countries and show them what to do rather than trying to take over and force them to change.

 

[Amund]

As I remember Manifest Destiny is the god given right for westward expansion.

You don't seem to understand what Manifest Destiny is. Manifest Destiny is the belief that the world belongs to white Christians, and no one else. Every other thing placed on earth, whether they're human or not, are put on the earth to serve them. They used this belief to justify their acts of genocide and slavery when they took over America and enslaved the Africans.

Manifest Destiny was an American belief. I'm fairly sure the English had something similar, but not quite the same.

Started with the Europeans, some of whom became American after a war.

Manifest Destiny did not start until c. 1840. All Americans from the American Revolution would have died.

Not sure when the term started, but the idea behind had existed since the Catholic Church had started their spread.

 

[cuddly_tomato]

But the BNP [..] are shitness.

If you mean the BNP are shits then yeah I agree.

 

[sheic99]

Spoiler

As I remember Manifest Destiny is the god given right for westward expansion.

You don't seem to understand what Manifest Destiny is. Manifest Destiny is the belief that the world belongs to white Christians, and no one else. Every other thing placed on earth, whether they're human or not, are put on the earth to serve them. They used this belief to justify their acts of genocide and slavery when they took over America and enslaved the Africans.

Manifest Destiny was an American belief. I'm fairly sure the English had something similar, but not quite the same.

Started with the Europeans, some of whom became American after a war.

Manifest Destiny did not start until c. 1840. All Americans from the American Revolution would have died.

Not sure when the term started, but the idea behind had existed since the Catholic Church had started their spread.

You have to be more specific on the Catholic spread. Are you talking about the intial spread in Rome or the Crusades?

By the way, the spreading of ideals through force is not a christian idea. Every major culture in history has believed in spreading their influence on undeveloped nations.

As pertaining to Manifest Destiny, that is a specific time in American History. England has little to nothing to do with it. And for the record Manifest Destiny also included Mexico. But what I believe you think you are talking about is something called Imperialism[\i] which the US did practice for a great number of years, as with France and England. After rereading one of your comments, you seem to forget about serfs and indentured servants and Africans were used as slaves mainly because if they ran it was easy to find them, and when waring tribes would capture prisoners, the prisoners were sold to slavers. It was easier for Indians and British(later Americans) to hide after running from their masters. Asians were not used because the British traded with them.

 

[TwistedEllipses]

The moment you start to think you have more right than someone or are superior is a dangerous place to be. Manifest destiny encourages this.

 

[fat american]

/quote]

You can't impose democracy. That's the whole point.

Well not immediately but you can impose a temporary government to then lead to a democracy.
The problem is when you then interfere with that government's system.

Do you hate the war in Iraq? Because that's pretty much what we're doing over there. Trying to set up a government that will eventually lead to democracy on it's own.

 

[Hevoo]

So....manifest destiny. It's the belief that it is our (American's) god given right to spread the American system of government out to the world. However, I disagree with that.

I believe that a nation's government will eventually progress into something near democracy. With manifest destiny you force democracy on the nation. So what it boils down to is you learning how to fish vs. someone giving you a fish. What do you think? Sorry if this isn't very clear. Its pretty late over here.

(Note: I know lots of you on the Escapist aren't American. Is this an accepted belief in your countries also?)

Your first point is unfounded. Yeah, there are a few people who think that, but have you seen the new polls on who supports the war in Iraq?

 

[JMeganSnow]

So....manifest destiny. It's the belief that it is our (American's) god given right to spread the American system of government out to the world.

Actually, this is inaccurate. Manifest Destiny historically was the belief that the United States of America should eventually stretch all the way across North America--it's why Jefferson funded the Lewis and Clark expedition.

Look It Up. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manifest_Destiny]

As for forcing our beliefs on people that don't want them, who cares? As long as they aren't bothering me, if they want to rot in squalor it's their problem.

 

[Amund]

Spoiler

As I remember Manifest Destiny is the god given right for westward expansion.

You don't seem to understand what Manifest Destiny is. Manifest Destiny is the belief that the world belongs to white Christians, and no one else. Every other thing placed on earth, whether they're human or not, are put on the earth to serve them. They used this belief to justify their acts of genocide and slavery when they took over America and enslaved the Africans.

Manifest Destiny was an American belief. I'm fairly sure the English had something similar, but not quite the same.

Started with the Europeans, some of whom became American after a war.

Manifest Destiny did not start until c. 1840. All Americans from the American Revolution would have died.

Not sure when the term started, but the idea behind had existed since the Catholic Church had started their spread.

You have to be more specific on the Catholic spread. Are you talking about the intial spread in Rome or the Crusades?

By the way, the spreading of ideals through force is not a christian idea. Every major culture in history has believed in spreading their influence on undeveloped nations.

As pertaining to Manifest Destiny, that is a specific time in American History. England has little to nothing to do with it. And for the record Manifest Destiny also included Mexico. But what I believe you think you are talking about is something called Imperialism[\i] which the US did practice for a great number of years, as with France and England. After rereading one of your comments, you seem to forget about serfs and indentured servants and Africans were used as slaves mainly because if they ran it was easy to find them, and when waring tribes would capture prisoners, the prisoners were sold to slavers. It was easier for Indians and British(later Americans) to hide after running from their masters. Asians were not used because the British traded with them.

For the catholic spread, I'm talking more about the Crusades period.

Yes, I do realize that every major culture or group believed on imposing their own unique way of life on everyone else. I always have. It's just the most successful ones, of recent history, were the Catholics.

Ok, so Manifest Destiny is term that directly relates to the westward expansion of the European Americans... which involved a lot of brutal and bigoted acts. However the idea that God made white Catholics the best people in the world, and there for they are entitled to the world, that started in Europe... probably some time around the start of the crusades.