Poll: ME3 - Aren't You Guys Rather Embarressed?

[Frostbyte666]

It might be a little embarassing but it is a cause worth taking note of and fighting for because I'm worried that if it was all part of a bioware plot (or EA) to add a true ending as dlc then not complaining would give a green light for others to do the same crap. There is also an issue of other companies pulling out non-sensicle endings and looking down on the gamer/consumer and patting them on the head and saying aww they just don't understand our art. I'd also ask did everyone in Bioware sit down and say "Yes this is a great ending." never mind that you don't know the consequences of your actions, numerous plot holes, destroying the character you created by railroading them into an a, b or c ending at the last few minutes regardless of what you have done throughout the series. There's the fact people were told their wouldn't be an a, b or c ending.

Hmm what would cause similar outcry in a different medium. Ah I know J. K. Rowling, say the last book finished with Harry getting hit by Voldemort's Aveda Kedavra then the book ends, how would you feel. Now for films...Shawshank Redemption the movie ends when DuFrain (sp?) has his name called in the morning after he escapes and it ends there. No explanation of how he got out or anything.

Personally I found the deus ex: human revolution ending complainers more whiny and though the ending choice of a, b or c wasn't great it still told us the results of our choices and closed the game nicely.

 

[JCBFGD]

So fighting for the right to indirectly force a private company to change their creative work because it doesn't fit your personal standards is now something worth fighting for?

If your landlord turned off your water because he felt it would be more "creatively pleasing" that way, wouldn't you complain? There's a point at which "it's mine, and I can do what I want" runs smack up against what the customer paid for, and there should be some accountability there.

Stories, be they video games or otherwise, require complete endings that flow naturally from the events that came before. In the case of Mass Effect, this ending was described to us, built up for us for years to be something that our choices would affect, in a massive and profound way. The ending to this video game is, in many ways, the reason we bought Mass Effect 3. Hell, it's the reason many of us bought Mass Effect 2. And then, the ending we recieved bore no relation to what was described, to what was advertised, so suddenly there are a lot of fans out there out 120 bucks and wondering why a proper ending cinematic documenting the effects of their choices was too much to ask.

If you promise something for which people are paying, you need to deliver on it. If you are a comercial artist selling a product and you do not accept returns, that art needs to be pleasing. And yes, it needs to be pleasing in its entirety.

If you end the work in a betrayal of the entire continuity up to that point, if you ship an ending that is clearly not even the same sort of thing as the ending you promised, if you somehow manage to enrage the clear majority of your customers, then you should not blame people for whining about it on the internet and maybe, maybe alerting some other poor fans before they sell off any of their organs to buy it. Someone needs to warn us, and since this disappointing ending aparently slipped by the majority of reviewers we might as well be warned by us.

I'll address these paragraph by paragraph.

Yup, you're right. However, a landlord depriving you of something you have already paid him for and need to survive is completely different from you not being satisfied with the creative work of a company. The fact you draw a comparison between the two is both sad and kinda frightening.

Sorry you weren't satisfied with a game. However, suck it up. It's a creative work which you weren't forced to buy. To quote the old childhood saying, "Too bad, so sad." You not liking a game is your problem and your problem alone. A company which creates art ("art" in the same way films are art) cannot be held responsible for all the people who are unsatisfied with their works. Do you see me bitching all over the internet and filing complaints with the FTC because I didn't like Blade Runner? No. I'm sucking it up because I realise it's my "problem", if it can even be dignified with such a strong word.

Now we get into the territory of opinions. I'll just copypasta a prior point I made in another thread:

(Example I was using: someone buys a painting from an artist, and then gets in a huff because it's not as blue and vivid as the customer would like.) Let's say the artist claimed it was blue and vivid. And then you got it, and you think it's not. Well, guess what? It's your opinion that it's not blue or vivid. Good luck trying to prove an opinion to the FTC! The artist will say, of course, that it is very blue, and most certainly vivid. Because he actually believes that, and made it with vivid blue in mind. It's a difference of opinion; opinions can't be proven, and they can't be impartially settled by an outside source.

Complaining to the FTC was a waste of these customers' time and effort. It's also a waste of the FTC's time to read this complaint. They can't say whose opinion is right because they're fucking opinions. If it was a case of them saying, "This game is bug-free!" and then having the game be unplayable due to myriad bugs, there's an FTC case. It has verifiable facts. But what they're saying is, "You have lots of choice!". Well, BioWare thinks you have lots of choice. You think you don't. The FTC can't decide either way, because first of all, what defines "lots"? There is no real measurement for "lots". Second of all, because there is no measure of "lots", what they'd then have to do is allow their own bias and opinions and definitions of "lots" to slip in. And having a government agency settling a dispute with their own opinions and not cold, hard facts is just terrible ethics. If the FTC gets involved here, then they need to be shut down, because they'd demonstrate that they're incapable of acting ethically.

It's, again, your opinion that they "betrayed" (again, not deserving of such a strong word) everyone in such a manner. Sure, they may've pissed off the majority of fans (by the way, [citation needed] on that one), but when was the last time a failed director was indirectly forced by customers or directly forced by the government to remake a movie, or in some other way reimburse filmgoers? It has, to my knowledge, never happened. Why? First of all, a government doing that is authoritarian. Second, you are not entitled to have a creative work changed to suit your wants. Nor are you in any other way entitled to any sort of repayment.

The world doesn't revolve around you and your every whim. Sorry.

 

[Amaror]

Nearly 50% think this is something worth fighting for...
I've nothing against the people who voted for this. But I can say my faith in the gaming community just dropped severely.

People! It's an -ending-! From what I hear the rest of the game is pretty great in fact!

Yeah the rest is good. But it's the ENDING. Endings are important, very important.
The Beginning and the ending of a medium are the most important parts.
The Beginning has to draw me in, make me interrested and make me keep consuming the medium.
The Ending has to lead me out. It has to remind me of the thinks i experienced, reflect on them, and maybe even show them in a different light.
The Ending is the think that people will remember, it is really important.
A good ending can make up for many many flaws in the middle section of the medium.
But a bad ending can ruin the whole experience.
I don't know why much people don't get this, but if you get really invested in an medium you can't just shrug off a bad ending.

 

[Savagezion]

OK, so I thought I explained this to you. A car got some objective specifications where a game got something subjective. Why do you keep comparing the two?

Dude you compared mass effect to a car with no breaks. I figured you must use the car analogy at least have it relate more than that. How good a color is, is subjective. I can point out that everyone else likes Chevrolet Orange, what is your problem? Or I can not be a dumbass and admit that Chevrolet Orange appears and is essentially, red.

You get a car that doesn't match what you've been told, well then that is usually based on something physical that actually makes sense. A game didn't live up to your expectations is a 100% subjective matter.

Hehe, its hard not to think you aren't attempting to troll. These expectations come from Bioware telling me what I should expect. Read the quotes, its black and white. They said "Expect this", people did, they delivered something else and people were angry, and then Bioware claims "artistic integrity" claim that "well, the critics liked it" etc.

There are people who are satisfied with Mass Effect 3 just because you're not.

Which means they aren't actually satisfied with the product they are satisfied with its effect on the market. Or they are satisfied I find this ridiculous. Or some other retarded reason other than the actual content of the game.

It doesn't mean they are apathetic, it means they think something different than you. Your opinion of a game is subjective. The colour of a car is not.

No, it is the same thing. You are just using the hipster mindset that thinking the word subjective solves every problem. Technically, that car is orange. That is true, and is a big deal in the car world. But no salesman would get away with it because you are allowed to see the car before you buy it. Software companies need to be held MORE accountable for what they put out there for promises because there are no refunds and you can see what you are buying. However, arguments like yours defend this shady practice.
Would you buy a car off a salesman's word alone? Why do you feel it is important that games be allowed to do this and not be required to deliver on promises?

I know it sounds strange, but your opinion isn't objective. Keep writing lengthy posts, that wont change. No matter how many links and quotes you post proves that Bioware purposely screwed over their customers. They made a crappy ending. Let it go.

Wow, what a unique take on it. I must say I haven't seen that reply vomited out on message boards 1,000 times a day. I bet you feel smart after typing it too. I know I do. Like I am the all seeing grand master of sociology. It rocks, doesn't it? You don't even have to look at things from their perspective when you do it either. It's so awesome. You're so awesome.

 

[VivaciousDeimos]

Well, this is a problem with polarized discourse. Bioware/EA needs to take a share of the blame in letting things get to this point, and not just because of that shameful ending. When you have an incestuous relationship with the gaming media, and you use that same media to attack your fan base in response to criticism, things are going to take an ugly turn. It should be humiliating for the industry as a whole that fucking FORBES was one of the only media outlets covering this debacle with even a whiff of objectivity.

Slightly off topic, but I think that the Forbes thing is probably one of the most unintentionally (and sadly) hilarious things to come out of all of this. I remember finding their first few pieces and was just like...Forbes out of fucking nowhere. It speaks volumes on the state of the gaming journalism when they're the ones giving the most balanced coverage, as opposed to, ya know, the actual games journalists.

 

[Dansen]

It isn't about the "bittersweetness" of the ending. Most of us figured Shepard would die. The big deal is our choices didn't matter despite that being the key selling point to the franchise.

There's a lot of things wrong with it.

*list*

Alright, so basically, it's two things:

Spoiler

- The last minute massive plot twist
- The fact that whatever you'll do, it'll will end practically same way

Thanks for the information guys. I can understand the anger about this.

Still...

Well, to start, can we not do the "it's just a video game" crap?

No, it's still a way to big a fuss about one videogame to me. I can understand people being angry about it and it's justified to complain and talk about it, but starting a donation run to try to get a ending changed of a fictive interactive story and actually succeeding in getting money... Then I think people take videogames too seriously. (Although, I may hope most people also did it because all money would go to Child's Play...)

If games and discussions regarding them are beneath you, it's possible you came to the wrong forum.

Why did I ask where the fuss was about then? I'm certainly interested in this, and like I said: I understand now why people would be pissed about it and want to vent about it with each other. I think people are justified to do that. But I think that demanding a new ending might go a bit too far. Also: Isn't playing videogames, no, everything actually, about the journey, and not the goal?

Well, if you would like the state of game story telling to continue declining then, by all means we can call it just a game. If you would like to see endings sold as DLC, then by all means we can call it just a game. If you don't want people to take action and confront things that bother them, then by all means we can call it just a game.

The consumers have EA by the balls. Even if EA manages to make a profit of Mass Effect, this disaster is going to affect their reputation for years to come if they don't try to redeem themselves. How Mass Effect was received is going to go down in gaming history. Publishers are watching and they may learn a thing or two. More consumer input will be greater for the games industry as a whole, since people wont feel like they've been shafted. Developers and publishers may be more receptive to input, particularly concerning their marketing. The Publisher might actually give devs the right amount of time to polish their games, increasing their overall quality. Consumers like being treated like people, who'd have thought?

Honestly, I think we are generally reasonable people, so instead of lying and insulting your customers, EA and Bioware at the least could have admitted they fucked up, I guarantee you that the ending controversy would have been no where near as bad if they had done so. If Ea changes its ways, even if its only temporarily, all the screaming and shouting would be worth it.

 

[Chanel Tompkins]

Eh...I don't know much about it at all. Is everyone mad because it was a downer ending or something? It's not like every game has to end happily ever after with doves shitting rainbows after all, if that's the case.

 

[arnoldthebird]

I played the game through and did not feel the absolute rage that some of the other community member's are feeling, I however was never attatched to the character's entirely. Mass Effect has always been a good game, but I have not ever thought of it to be super fantastic

 

[AdamRhodes]

From what I've gathered, here is a basic summary of each side's arguments:

Fans who hated ME3's ending:
1. This is full of plot holes and goes against the entire theme(s) of the rest of the series
2. This makes no sense and is completely out-of-character for Shepard(Paragon or Renegade), please explain.
3. This provides no closure for all the characters I've grown to love
4. (This is the one everyone else hates) THIS IS BULLSHIT!!! GIVE US A BETTER ENDING OR WE'LL FUCKING RUIN YOU!! (obviously hyperbole, but you get the point)
5. Bioware lied to us. They said in development and post-production very specific things about what the ending was and was not. The exact opposite turned out to be true.

Fans against the fans who hated ME3's ending:
1. This is Bioware's art. They can end the series however they want (See #1 of previous)
2. It's just a game. Stop taking it so seriously
3. Quit whining you immature, entitled brats.
4. [Uninformed statement about fans hating the ending because it isn't a happy ending or simply for being an ending]

Bioware:
1. Every ending will be unique depending on choices you've made in your game with no ABC endings and no loose plot-threads
2. (Pre-production) We're really co-creators with our fans. We want honest feedback on what our fans like or don't like; what they want or don't want.
3. (Post-release) This is our product and you have to accept it the way it is.
4. We're listening to our fans' complaints and taking them into account (while shutting down the BSN)

Am I right?

 

[Yopaz]

OK, so I thought I explained this to you. A car got some objective specifications where a game got something subjective. Why do you keep comparing the two?

Dude you compared mass effect to a car with no breaks. I figured you must use the car analogy at least have it relate more than that. How good a color is, is subjective. I can point out that everyone else likes Chevrolet Orange, what is your problem? Or I can not be a dumbass and admit that Chevrolet Orange appears and is essentially, red.

You get a car that doesn't match what you've been told, well then that is usually based on something physical that actually makes sense. A game didn't live up to your expectations is a 100% subjective matter.

Hehe, its hard not to think you aren't attempting to troll. These expectations come from Bioware telling me what I should expect. Read the quotes, its black and white. They said "Expect this", people did, they delivered something else and people were angry, and then Bioware claims "artistic integrity" claim that "well, the critics liked it" etc.

There are people who are satisfied with Mass Effect 3 just because you're not.

Which means they aren't actually satisfied with the product they are satisfied with its effect on the market. Or they are satisfied I find this ridiculous. Or some other retarded reason other than the actual content of the game.

It doesn't mean they are apathetic, it means they think something different than you. Your opinion of a game is subjective. The colour of a car is not.

No, it is the same thing. You are just using the hipster mindset that thinking the word subjective solves every problem. Technically, that car is orange. That is true, and is a big deal in the car world. But no salesman would get away with it because you are allowed to see the car before you buy it. Software companies need to be held MORE accountable for what they put out there for promises because there are no refunds and you can see what you are buying. However, arguments like yours defend this shady practice.
Would you buy a car off a salesman's word alone? Why do you feel it is important that games be allowed to do this and not be required to deliver on promises?

I know it sounds strange, but your opinion isn't objective. Keep writing lengthy posts, that wont change. No matter how many links and quotes you post proves that Bioware purposely screwed over their customers. They made a crappy ending. Let it go.

Wow, what a unique take on it. I must say I haven't seen that reply vomited out on message boards 1,000 times a day. I bet you feel smart after typing it too. I know I do. Like I am the all seeing grand master of sociology. It rocks, doesn't it? You don't even have to look at things from their perspective when you do it either. It's so awesome. You're so awesome.

A car's colour is an objective fact. If you have been told that you're being sold a red car, but it turns out it's orange, then that is something objective.

Now you say I am using a hipster mindset that everything is subjective, but all I am saying is that your opinion is subjective. Look at your post. When I say I've seen people that like the ending you say they don't. It's not impossible to like something because you don't. This is a creative medium so a lot of things are going to be subjective. If you say your opinion isn't subjective I don't think you have the faintest idea of what the word subjective or objective means.

 

[GraveeKing]

You both address serious individual points that I can understand, but I don't want to reply in two posts so there we go.

-SNIP FOR GREAT JUSTICE-

-more snip-

OK, for starters my point is simple - you buy a game for the game-play. The ending is effectively just that - the end of game-play. After that there is no more! (usually)
You PAY for the game-play, yes the beginning and end ARE the most important parts - I won't deny that, but the beginning should draw you in because that's what you paid for. But the ending is either there for a sequel or to... well yeah END the series.

Weirdly you don't technically pay for an ending - it's just the conclusion, what you worked towards if you will. If a game promises '40 hours of game-play and more!' then that is what you pay for. The ending itself has only one consumer value:
How much you want to buy bio-ware game. It's fine if you hated the ending - go ahead, don't buy their next game. There is no problem with that whatsoever - that's based on your experience or choice, but you don't have any right to change an ending.


Speaking of which I watched a couple of the 'Better ending' choices just to confirm my suspicions. No I don't understand the endings - but my point is simple, they're fully animated, they were clearly worked on - and to an extent you have multiple choices.
This is a games ending. It's not like Shepard dies and a little block of red text comes up and says 'The End'.
This IS I agree in many ways an unfinished or even rushed game. The fact they released DLC on launch proves that. But really - this just means the game is BAD. I'm not defending the game. If you want to boycott their future games because you fear they'll ruin it again go ahead, you want to complain about how bad it is and how nobody should buy it - sure go for it.

BUT my point is and always will be:
You can't get your money back. You DID the game-play. THAT is the important bit, unless you rushed it (which I know some did - don't pretend otherwise!) then really you got your hours of fun - can either of really say before the ending you didn't get plenty of fun out of the game? Did the ending magically remove your memory of all the other game-play. Because no matter how you put it - the Ending is and always will be one key point of the game - not all of it.

 

[Amaror]

You both address serious individual points that I can understand, but I don't want to reply in two posts so there we go.

-SNIP FOR GREAT JUSTICE-

-more snip-

OK, for starters my point is simple - you buy a game for the game-play.

Ok, let me stop you right there. That is simply not true.
You don't buy a game just for the game- play in the same way you don't buy a book, just because of the writing style, and you don't buy a movie, just because the visuals are nice.
You buy them because they tell a story, and Me is a major example of games, who are bought for their Story and not because of their gameplay.
The gameplay of Me is fine, but it's never been the really strong part of the game and i think you know that.
I bought the game for the story, and the ending is the conlcusion, the final chapter, of the story.
Therefore the Ending is really really important.

 

[AdamRhodes]

I think the main reason all this hullabaloo has gone so far, and should keep going, is because we, as gamers, shouldn't allow a company to completely screw over their fans in the name of "artistic integrity". The fact is: Bioware made very specific promises about what the ending would entail, and the exact opposite of what they said is what we got. That is false advertising which, it turns out, DOES warrant an FTC investigation. False advertising is illegal; why should Bioware be above the law? Everyone saying "just let it go" is retarding the development of video games as a proper entertainment medium. If we don't call companies out for this kind of shit, they're just going to screw us over again in the future.

THOSE people are the ones that embarrass me, the people who just stand by and let it happen or even actively discourage those standing up for their rights.

 

[The Ubermensch]

The whole Childsplay people wanting a refund... That was over the line of stupid

These people should be removed from the gene pool Via vivisection, Slow vivisection, without anesthetic

Aside from that its all been civil aside from the odd loud mouth. Its Bioware/EA's PR that's making us sound like douchebags... with the exception of the childsplay thing, there are people stupid enough to think that they were paying Bioware for the actual ending via this thing. but again, these are the minority

 

[ELD3RGoD]

I've had Glandular fever for the past few weeks and I just want to go onto the front page of the gaming discussion and not see a million threads titled 'ME3 ending.' Seriously, I've all but abandoned The Escapist gaming discussion because of this fucking game.

 

[Ninjafire72]

That's about the dumbest ting I've ever read. I'm sorry, but people are dis-satisfied with something and your response is that it's our own stupid fault, and we should just ignore it? If everyone did that, nothing would change:
"NY Crime rate is rising? Just ignore it." "Colonel Gadafi is being evil? Just ignore it." "The Southern states of America are using black people as slaves? Just ignore it."
Based on what you said the NY police department, the Lybian rioters and George Washington are all 'vile' people for wanting change and are stupid to try fighting. See what I'm getting at here?

Being apathetic never solves anything, and as others have said shouting for boycotts rarely work unless properly organised. I'm not really happy about the whole whining business either, but if people are unhappy with something (or better yet, if they were LIED TO) then they have every right to raise their voice and try and make a difference.

Better than just sitting there determinedly not buying anything.

I'll use your hilariously over the top slavery argument as an example. In this case, those who bought ME3 and are complaining about the ending aren't the people trying to free the slaves, they are the ones that buy them. But then they realize that "Slavery might be wrong" and start complaining to the slave trader.(Neither slaves or videogames can be returned, they are similar in that regard.) Those who didnt buy ME3 are the ones fighting for their freedom, they are the ones who are saying "Freedom to the people" and not allowing them to live off of selling these slaves.

Sure you can complain after buying a slave, but what does it matter to the slaver? (Actually you could buy another slave, but buying two copies of ME3 makes no sense) Nothing. But even though you already bought a slave, you can do a diffrence by not buying his immoral shit next time.

And you think MY argument is hilariously over the top. We're talking about a legitimate product here, not slaves. That was a metaphor, see? Besides, Abraham Lincoln didn't free the slaves by just avoiding the slave trade himself.

Your statement would hold true if we were buying/selling slaves. If a slaver told us 'Hey buy this fellow, he's really good at lifting things' and it turned out he was weakling, we wouldn't be able to complain because we shouldn't be buying slaves in the first place. And the slave trader wouldn't care because they are immoral people themselves, and couldn't care about you're interests at all; they're in it for profits, nothing more.

This, however, IS NOTHING LIKE the games industry. Developers make games, not slaves, and these games are developed for us; they are created in the hopes of entertaining us. The developer inherently has to care about our interests, other wise what's the point in making the game at all? (actually, they could just make the game to make money but that's something ALL gamers would scorn and complain about (EA) )

So if a consumer buys a product like ME3 and is not satisfied with it, they should complain or at the very least let them know that "hey Bioware, you screwed up at the end there". After all, they were trying to please us, and if they didn't achieve that goal we should let them know so they can improve; not just fall into self-dignified silence and refuse to talk to them ever again. Right?

 

[A Weakgeek]

snip

First of all, I'd like to say that my standing on this issue has changed after my last response to you. ( Which you can notice if you read my previous posts. [Not blaming you for not doing that]) I have conceded that you do have the right to whine and complain, however ineffectual it may prove to be.

As for game companies making games to entertain us... Doesnt that sound a bit naive to you? Do you not seriously think that Bioware will continue making dissapointing games if they kept selling really well? (Like, if you ask me, has already happened.) Sure, the devs are people too, but they are more than willing to make products less fun/convinient for the consumer to turn in profit. ( Ending DLC for example, get a NEW, BETTER ending! Only 10 dollars!)

You have a right to complain, but if you really want to defend your rights as a consumer, fight against bad games, bad buissness ethics... You're going to have to talk with your wallet. It doesn't matter what the community says if the next game sells 2,5 million copies aswell. I used to be able to call myself a bioware fan and I hope there will be a time I can honestly call myself that once again. But for now, the only thing I can do is hope that they make a good, satisfying game, then I will be more than willing to throw my money at them...

 

[Savagezion]

A car's colour is an objective fact. If you have been told that you're being sold a red car, but it turns out it's orange, then that is something objective.

Oh, you mean like:
-You decisions with the Rachni make absolutely no difference in the final battle?
-The ending is quantified as A, B, and C at the end?
-No matter what you pick it equates to a bespoke ending that everyone gets?
-It offers no definitive answers and goes cryptic at the end with the plot and the best guess is a theory that means Bioware sold pivotal moments of the story as DLC? Of which, Bioware neither confirms nor denies and refuses to tell everyone what the hell its cryptic message is?

Those are objective facts about the title. Those are not subjective.

Now you say I am using a hipster mindset that everything is subjective, but all I am saying is that your opinion is subjective. Look at your post. When I say I've seen people that like the ending you say they don't. It's not impossible to like something because you don't. This is a creative medium so a lot of things are going to be subjective. If you say your opinion isn't subjective I don't think you have the faintest idea of what the word subjective or objective means.

You are the one overlooking what subjectivity means. We are not upset they said the ending will be "awesome" and we disagree.Or they guaranteed we'd like it. That is a subjective claim. Then your argument would make more sense. We are upset they said the ending would offer answers, and it doesn't. It actually only offers more questions. Nobody out there that "likes" it can say it offers more answers and show examples of those answers. It will only boil down to "their interpretation" of the cryptic ending to the game. Nobody that likes the endings can show me where any of that bulleted list above is at in the game except by some imaginary cryptic "metaphor" that no one will agree on BS. That isn't answers, its questions.

The most commonly held belief is a theory Bioware neither confirms or denies. Yet, they claim the spirit behind this game was to give answers. This game resolves nobody's questions, everything out there is just conjecture.

"You'll get answers to everything. That was one of the key things. Regardless
of how we did everything, we had to say, yes, we're going to provide
some answers to these people."