Poll: ME3 EC didn't fix anything

[Adam Jensen_v1legacy]

Well he said that they always rebelled. I dont know how often was enough but my thinking was that enough for starchild to go for reaper solution would be much.

Synthetics rebelled several in the first cycle. The Catalyst was allegedly created to stop that conflict. He started reaping people in that cycle as the final solution to the problem. It doesn't mean that the synthetics rebelled in ever cycle after that one or that they would. He doesn't know and he doesn't care. Reapers arrive every 50,000 years regardless of what happens in the cycle. You know why? BECAUSE THE ORIGINAL ENDING WAS NEVER ABOUT SYNTHETICS VS ORGANICS. That's why the ending doesn't make sense. Bioware implemented an ending that fundamentally changed the entire theme of the game in the last 15 minutes. And it shows. Of course it shows. There is no point in trying to justify it.

 

[Bigeyez]

I don't get it. The dialogue with the Catalyst in the EC actually does answer most of the quesitons the OP has and now you find out what happens to your squadmates and the rest of the galaxy. It even explains why your team was jumping away from Earth. The ending even hints at the Catalyst being a rogue AI that first reaped his creators against their will.....He is not some god or starchild. He was created to solve a problem and as an AI came up with a "perfect" solution that doomed the galaxy to the reaper cycle.

What did people actually expect the EC to do??

 

[boag]

Also remember heretics? Reason current geth are stoners is because Shepard killed/brainwashed the "peace through extermination of organics" -faction. And the said faction was close to releasing a virus to main geth that would have given them the blood lust as well. Bonus points for the fact that while the geth did not start the war, they were not back then true AIs. They are now. Whether or not geth with true AI are warlike or stoners remains to be seen, I am reserving judgement and firepower as ControlGuardian Shepard. If everything goes against Starcilds predictions all swell. If not, reap on ye fucking reapers.

PS: Using caps lock does not give a good impression of you.

Ah yes "HERETICS", the ones that Sovereing Brainwashed in the first place to start a full scale war agaisnt organics, so the reapers could have an excuse to reap the Galaxy, so that Organics dont create AI that want to exterminate all organics.


Yes, that was a sound and completely logical action right?

 

[electric method]

It's not so much that I missed it, but more a matter of I disregarded it. Why? Well, from the established lore in the story the only time, that we the players are made aware of AI's getting all uppity, is in the span of the ME Trilogy. Those AI's getting uppity are the result of Reaper interference and conditioning to make them do so.( With the exception of what's revealed in "from ashes". Those events are not really explained.) So with that bit of info in mind I took his statement in context with the story. It honestly begs the question of what did he (starbrat) try before the first a-reapening?

Was it that he incited the AI's of his time to riot? Did he instigate the organics to keep the war going? In the context of the story all he/the repears have done has been to incite war, never solving it. Without context of what he actually did to end the conflict all we can logically deduce is he did what the reapers have done during what we've been shown. Ergo, the lil horror is not to be trusted.

The other problem is that his reasoning for the "reapening" of his creators, and subsequent cycles, is faulty. It's quite honestly a self-fulfilling prophecy. He creates the need for the reapers by making the reapers. It's insano logic at it's core. The biggest problem with the endings is that bloody starbrat. There is not enough context, nor reason for him to influence the plot as he does.

True enough. If it comes down to whether or not we trust the starchilds words then it really cant go anywhere since hes the only one who has seen the events unfold over the millenias. Aside of "from Ashes" things but as you said were dealing with very limited amount of info here so its either trust the catalyst or go blind. It comes down to how you feel about the starbrat I guess.

His logic might be insane but then, its not like a concept of an logic-wise insane AI is anything new. And if you feel he is a damn whacko you can take his place. Personally this is why I think control option is best choice. It does not interfere with the races and shepard can remain eternal as the ReaperKeeper to see if starchilds prophecy becomes a reality.

And *cough*makehumansthesupremerulersofthegalaxy*cough*

I can agree with you that it's a "trust" issue insofar as the choices pertain to the starbrat. For me, he did not give enough information, nor do enough to convice me that he should be trusted. This, I will readily admit, has more to do with BioWare and their handling of the starbrat versus my thoughts on a starbrat type character. My thoughts on control are a bit more muddled than yours though. What we are shown about controlling the Reapers is that it means indoctrinated organic. Does Shep somehow have plot armor to protect him from this occuring? Also, with that level of power is Shep even capable of resisting the urge to go all "Might makes right", in effect becoming starbrat 2.0?

You are bang on about insane A.I.'s not be a new thing in Sci-Fi. Hell, some of my favorite sf stuff is from Isaac Asimov. "I, Robot" and the "Foundation Trilogy" are incredible works of SF. The big difference between ME and those titles are that Asimov fully fleshed out the reasoning, logic and motivations for his robots/A.I. where as BioWare dropped starbrat out of the blue into the story. I would have zero problems with the idea of an insane A.I. if he was introduced earlier in ME3 or, better, ME2. The ideas and concepts that could have been explored this way would have only added to the lore and story of the ME Universe.

Part of why the Geth/Quarian story arc is so moving and powerful is that it explores fundamental questions of life. "Do I have a soul?" "What does it mean to be alive?" etc. On the other side of that coin we see the Quarian reaction to the Geth becoming self-aware. (Goodly portions of this echo earlier works of Sci-Fi to a large degree.) Even with the echos of other works there, what drives ME forward and makes it so powerful is that it's done in an interactive medium. The innocent, almost child like, Geth asking it's quarian "does this unit have a soul?" is heartwrenching. Especially when both seen and heard.

If the Starbrat had been introduced sooner, the interaction with him was earlier and ongoing BioWare could have really used the starbrat as a very tragic figure. One whom with the player could empathize with, hell even sympathize with. Over the course of the game it could have been revealed that the repeated failure of his attempts to broker peace and the resulting killing drove him insane. I mean it's one of the most horrible situations anyone could be put in. Side with your kind, A.I., or side with organics. Seeing both killing each other and nothing you do stops it would be devestating to a newly formed consciousness (sp? sorry it's late here and I am tired). Having that reflected in game would take him from an obnoxious deus-ex-machina to a character one can feel for. It would paint his actions in a light that, while still insane and off the wall, are much more understandable.

Further, handled that way, the starchild, himself, becomes a poignant counterpoint to the Geth and Edi fully realizing their status as sentient beings then choosing to live harmoniously with the organics of their cycle.

 

[Masterdebator]

I kind of fail to care. People forget how many things were wrong with Mass Effect 3 besides its, now slightly polished by Bioware to appease/ keep their fanbase in line, horrendous endings.

 

[regalphantom]

His reasoning is that the creators will always rebel against the created and that synthetics will kill all organics. Which never happened. NOT ONCE. Can you understand that? SYNTHETICS NEVER KILLED ALL ORGANICS. Which makes his conclusion about the whole idea just a wild speculation. He simply can't know what will happen.

Actually, it's implied in game, across several games, that the Geth and being non-hostile is extremely unique and as a result of their pseudo-hive mind. Additionally, EDI can easily be written off, as it is entirely plausible that Cerberus produced several AI's before creating one which was non-hostile. In ME1, there is a side quest where a rogue AI is stealing money from the casino with the sole purpose of transferring himself into a spacecraft so it can join the Geth (which it believes to share it's common goal of the annihilation of organics). The kicker is that the AI was created by a less sophisticated AI to continue it's goals in the event of it's detection. Additionally, the council's laws against AI existed BEFORE the Quarian's created the Geth, not because of it (Tali outright states that when they created the Neural Network, they were skirting the law, but not breaking it). Therefore, despite the fact that the Geth, the AI you primarilly interact with in ME, are non-hostile, there is enough evidence to reasonably assume that AI's which are hostile towards organic life are, in fact, the norm when viewed in the large scale.

 

[Link Kadeshi]

Ker-SNIP!

Which you would think would make the Starbrat stop, and re-think it's plan. "Wow, Synthetics that DON'T want to kill them all and make them pay!" And promptly try and indroctrinate some people, use them to broker peace, and guide the galaxy to a more peaceful future. Hell, if he really cared, study the Geth (Goddesses know they'd jump at the chance to support "Machine-Gods") and find a way to reproduce the peace-code into other synthetics through indoctrinated slaves. You want peace, there you go. He clearly does not actually care to try other things than killing them all and making them pay.

 

[Awexsome]

They're not ever going to please the unpleasable so why even bother with their useless crying disguised as worthwhile opinions anymore?

IMO with the further explanation and added bonus of the "fuck you, everyone dies because you fought when the fighting was done." made the endings go from meh to great. Destroy would be a worse ending since now the cycle will very likely continue again when some species loses control of their synthetics while it's debatable whether synthesis or control is the best...

Depends on how badly you worry about the cycle starting itself up again as inevitable as the catalyst made it out to be since he's seen it happen many times before enacting the reaper cycle solution to keep it under control.

 

[Aprilgold]

Christ you people are bitter about nothing.

It's cool that you love the Mass Effect series and all, but in actuality, it's not all that important to throw a fit over.

Just make up your own ending for your Shepard if it bothers you that much.

From what I can gather, it would take 100+ hours to 100% the entire series, to have those 100+ hours feel wasted is good enough for people to get pissed.

Also, people did that its called the INDOCTRINATION THEORY! People were so damn unsatisfied with the ending they made up a entire new ending, grasping at straws in the lore. Do you know how bad it is when your movie / book / game ends so badly that people have to make up their own ending in denial? DO YOU UNDERSTAND THE LEVEL OF FAIL NEEDED FOR THAT TO HAPPEN?!

6 feet down level of denial people.

----------------------------------

Who called it? I called it.

 

[Awexsome]

Otherwise we'll never get the same treatment from developers ever again, because they'll just assume we were never going to be happy anyway and they won't bother trying.

We should only be so lucky. ME3 was released with a disgracefully underdone ending. Bio went back and fixed it to cover their very public error, not for the fans regardless of what people want to think.

Now that's bullshit. Go to Bioware's front door and tell their developers how much they suck and don't care about the fans. It won't make you right in your desperate need to hate.

 

[Korten12]

Christ you people are bitter about nothing.

It's cool that you love the Mass Effect series and all, but in actuality, it's not all that important to throw a fit over.

Just make up your own ending for your Shepard if it bothers you that much.

Ok, I did that.
http://www.fanfiction.net/s/6376514/1/Mass_Effect_New_Origins_V2

The thing is, I shouldn't have had to. I didn't pay 80$ for a game where I have to make my own ending.

Wait... YOU wrote that? Dang that is good, need to continue it, I think I got to chapter 50 or so, but then didn't have time. Need to reread it.

Well...at least it's not terrible anymore. Still don't feel satisfied with it(wasn't expecting to either), but oh well. At least the Krogan are good. This time around though, picking the Destroy option did make me feel a bit guilty since it flashed EDI's face real quick instead of Joker. Wasn't expecting that.

The detail I did like that was added in was

Spoiler

showing Adm. Anderson's name on the Normandy's wall and your LI holding Shepard's name.

...but then wait. Why is the breathing scene still there?!

As much as I want to, I can't forget the original ending. *sigh* I'm off to watch the 'new' Control and Synthesis endings. The refusal ending was just a laugh xD

It may have been said already, but if you picked destroy, all good choices, and have 5000+ EMS, it STRONGLY implies that you lived.

 

[Savo]

It was... alright. It was clear that they were listening to the fans and wanted to address some of the issues that fans had with it. I no longer hate Bioware for the endings and am open to buying more of their games in the future.

This is being petty, considering that they are a major company, but does anyone else still feel upset about the blatant lies they told in interviews regarding the game? I really wish that they would come out and apologize for those lies.

On another note, I'm honestly disappointed (but not really surprised) they didn't go with the indoctrination theory. There's enough of a groundwork in the game for Bioware to have to pulled it together and sounded fairly convincing. That combined with an epic ending where Shephard duels Harbinger for the fate of the galaxy followed by a 20 minute fully animated epilogue detailing the consequences of your actions throughout the trilogy would have blown the fanbase away.

Ah, what could have been.

 

[Smeggs]

Well, there are still some new minor questions raised by some things in these new endings, and they are still quite identical, but honestly if these had just been the endings in the first place I and many others would have been okay.

Still not perfect, but I never expected the endings to be, just not as castratingly terrible as the originals were. At least they seemed to cover all of the most glaring plotholes from the originals.

Still, the fact that Bioware had to be goaded into fixing such blatant failings in the endings does not sit well with me, especially since they outright insulted their fans. I'll just have to see where the following year or two takes them. Of course in reality it was the gnarled cock of EA shoved up their butts that was the result of all of this in the first place, I'm sure.

Rush jobs for more cash at a quicker rate is just up their alley.

It may have been said already, but if you picked destroy, all good choices, and have 5000+ EMS, it STRONGLY implies that you lived.

"Strongly Implies?" Where the hell was that part? I must have missed it, was it after the part where it shows the mangled body of shepard lying alone in smoldering rubble take half a dying gasp? Shit, everyone already thinks you're dead, it must have been at least a few weeks of time as far as the travel back to their home planets with no relays is concerned, no way Shepard has survived that loong without food or water, alone, in such a mangled, bloodied state as he had been.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

Finally got around to seeing the new endings.

1. Some plot holes were closed, and while people are still acting somewhat contrary to their established personalities in parts, it's no longer egregious and confusing.
2. Unfortunately, in closing some plot holes, they've also really buggered the pacing, particularly in the assault on the beam. What was once a somewhat terrifying/surreal sequence is now borderline comical as Harbinger toots and piddles about for a minute while you medivac some wounded off the field. Time out!
3. Star Child is just as irritating as ever. I'm not surprised to see they're still clinging to him. He was such a monumentally terrible decision they pretty much NEED to try and own it.
4. The "Rejection" ending is quite the brazen middle finger to complainers. When I read the outline of it, it sounded like "everyone dies, but you'll get the reapers next time for sure because of it". It's not like that at all. It's "everyone dies, and you beg the next cycle not to be hopeless fuck wits like you were".
5. The extended cinematics/picture cards with voice over are alright, but they feel like the bare minimum. I'm a little shocked they took several months to put this out, because honestly it feels rather slapped together. If the original ending was like coming home to discover your house had burned down, the new ending is like coming home to discover your house has burned down, but someone has thoughtfully hung some potted plants in the wreckage.

"Strongly Implies?" Where the hell was that part? I must have missed it, was it after the part where it shows the mangled body of shepard lying alone in smoldering rubble take half a dying gasp? Shit, everyone already thinks you're dead, it must have been at least a few weeks of time as far as the travel back to their home planets with no relays is concerned, no way Shepard has survived that loong without food or water, alone, in such a mangled, bloodied state as he had been.

The crew also refuses to place your name on the wall o' death, and act quite smug and cheerful about it. Which is really kind of weird if you're not dead, because why have this faux ceremony in the first place? And really gross and inappropriate if you are dead, because they all look really pleased with themselves and make a big show of coyly NOT putting your name on the memorial wall.

I think it's fairly obvious you're meant to infer that Shepard is alive, or at the very least clinging to life, however physically impossible it is.

 

[JWC1993]

A retort

50,000 year cycles aren't ridiculous by any means - it only takes a single generation to spawn a race of synthetics capable of total genocide (as the starchild has observed countless times) - whereby 50,000 years allows a hefty amount of sapient flourishing. The starchild was given the directive to sustain organics, but it realized how futile an effort that is conventionally. So it preserves the likeness of organic species within the reapers. From a sort of meta-Lockean identity theory, this tactic makes a good amount of sense. The police analogy is simply faulty, you ignore the preservation of the species in the reapers, which is the entire point of the culling. I don't disagree that the ending is a bit trite and contrived but hell, it beats Lost. The objection that Mass Effect's ending is somehow patently irrational is simply false.

 

[thahat]

Christ you people are bitter about nothing.

It's cool that you love the Mass Effect series and all, but in actuality, it's not all that important to throw a fit over.

Just make up your own ending for your Shepard if it bothers you that much.

cant. modtools + bioware = NOPE!
'hi there, lets ban you for modding singleplayer, K, thanks, bye!'

 

[thahat]

I don't care anymore. Shepherd's story is over, they may continue the franchise with a new main character, and the series was pretty damn awesome for 99% of it. The ending to 3 wasn't great, but everyone forgets that part because it's the LAST THING THAT HAPPENS.

Did you forget the fun parts of ME3? Did you forget the cool storyline minus the ending?

I'm probably the only person on the planet who didn't hate the ending. AND I enjoyed the new ending.

Can we be done with this now? I've already moved onto Diablo 3 and am quite enjoying Nimblebit's new game.

and in your last sentence, there is the difference between you and the complainers.
they want a game you can re grab and play over and over gain, cause face it, it had the potential all over it. ... but then the starchild happened.

you know what a good ending can do? it can re invigorate your entire story arc. to keep people coming ( in time, driving up later sales of the game long past its golden days )
example, prince of persia sands of time ( 1/2/3, not the stuff pushed in the middle that doest count ) they made the ending to part 3 lock into the START of part 1, and even overlap with the schismatic. for a series dealing with time travel forth and back all over the place, it was masterful. and keeps you replaying it cause as soon as you get to the end of 3, you feel like the beginning of 1 again. what does the bioware ending do? shit on you, make you want to throw the games in some cupboard not look at them again. so yeah.

 

[sobaka770]

The EC couldn't have satisfied me from the moment it became obvious that they won't change the original choices and mission. The whole sequence after London is a mess and should have been redone.

The effort to cover up the plot holes is honorable, however considering the horrible gaps in logic in the original ending it was the very least they could do unless they wanted to tarnish their image completely. Face it, the EA PR department decided that it will be profitable in the long run if Bioware fixes endings and then sells more games. People were really, seriously, royally pissed. They didn't give them enough money to make a new and logical one so they fixed the existing crap with a few feel-good slides and some dialogue. And the new dialogue is actually good.

The problem is that no matter how well written the parts are, the whole concept of the ending (despite whatever the philosophers and other intellectuals might say) is fundamentally flawed and is completely disconnected from the main narrative. narrative comes first. If you can fit your great ideas into it, good for you. We have great backstories about AI vs Organics, control, impossible odds etc in ME universe. In the end the logic and grounded narrative are forsaken to drive an ideological point and that should not have been the case.

Is EC satisfactory? Well for a free DLC with some poignant dialogue and scenes, it is satisfactory. The ending of ME3 (and the culminating point of the whole franchise) is still abhorrent. Stop feeding me ideological/philosophical crap. It didn't exist in this game and has no place in the front row.

 

[Vegosiux]

50,000 year cycles aren't ridiculous by any means - it only takes a single generation to spawn a race of synthetics capable of total genocide (as the starchild has observed countless times) - whereby 50,000 years allows a hefty amount of sapient flourishing. The starchild was given the directive to sustain organics, but it realized how futile an effort that is conventionally.

Yeah, why the fuck should anyone ever actually try harder when things get tough. Just take the path of least resistance and employ some insane troll logic as to how it's the only way to do it. Sorry, not buying this.

So it preserves the likeness of organic species within the reapers. From a sort of meta-Lockean identity theory, this tactic makes a good amount of sense.

If you can say to my face that getting yourself turned into gray goo and then used to construct a contraption that carries some vague bits of your DNA signature equals preservation/immortality for you, then I concede this point.

The police analogy is simply faulty, you ignore the preservation of the species in the reapers, which is the entire point of the culling.

I'm not ignoring it, I just don't see that as "preservation" at all. Because there's more to a "species" than the DNA signature. Society. Culture. History. Context in which it exists. And all that gets wiped out. Preserving the genetic signature is worth bugger all when everything else that is just as, if not more important to a species' identity is destroyed.

Besides, the entire "preservation" stance takes another blast to the head when you consider there's a complete absence of any new Reaper other than the human one. Never once was it even vaguely implied that turians, asari, krogans, etc., are getting Reaper'd too.

Also, there's a complete absence of even a hint of a prothean Reaper. We're expected to take the glowbrat's words at face value. The least he could do was actually back up his words with something other than "Because I said so". For all I know, he could be lying.

Oh, but why would he lie? Yeah well, path of least resistance again.