Poll: MMO's don't require skill.
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Skill? Maybe. I guess it depends on the game. Many F2P games don't require more skill than click and hit your skill hotkeys as fast as possible and hope you don't die. However, there are a few games that require some level of skill.
Sigh... Most MMORPG's require skill to some extent. I've played end-game wow going into T6 content. You can tell when there is someone who absolutely dumb. The entire raid WILL DIE.
You can't say WoW doesn't take leadership or organizational skills. Have you ever tried managing a guild of 100-300 people, making sure there are enough raid spots for everyone, and that no one gets really mad and leaves? Or else organizing 25 people into a coherent force so that they work as an effective machine? I haven't, but from what I've seen it looks pretty damn hard.
There are no unbiased opinions, whether you play them or not. Even if you play MMORPG's devoutly, you can still think they take no skill. Example: I play shooters, I'm pretty good at them, I think they don't take much skill besides quick reaction, spatial intelligence, and situational/strategic awareness. I find them easy, whereas someone who is not as skilled marvels at my amazing feats of headshotty goodness. =P
MMORPEGERS usually have very low level entry points and not an incredibly high learning curve. It is a basic business formulae. Make the game as accessible to everyone as you can, while offering LOTS of extra content to those who wish to pursue it. WoW had to have something to it to be able to build such a large player base, it didn't start with however many million people...
This is almost the same indignation PC shooter players felt at the release of the console. They feel a condescension towards console players, and their lack of skill, much as many people feel a condescension towards MMORPG's because they too do not graps some of the skills required.
Every type of game can be boiled down the same way as people do MMORPG's, thus proving they too require no skill:
Shooters: Point and click and someone dies. Run around shooting things.
RTS: Make ressources, make units, kill the other guy.
Fighter: Mash the attack button 'till the other guy dies.
However, I believe everyone who plays these games beyond a basic level will argue that I am dead wrong, that the game is deeper than that, and that it does require skill!
"That game is not the simple atrocity you are trying to make it Sir! That is only a very shallow overview of some of the basics of that type of game, I am outraged!". you say.
And thus I make my point.
/end nerdrage
You can't say WoW doesn't take leadership or organizational skills. Have you ever tried managing a guild of 100-300 people, making sure there are enough raid spots for everyone, and that no one gets really mad and leaves? Or else organizing 25 people into a coherent force so that they work as an effective machine? I haven't, but from what I've seen it looks pretty damn hard.
There are no unbiased opinions, whether you play them or not. Even if you play MMORPG's devoutly, you can still think they take no skill. Example: I play shooters, I'm pretty good at them, I think they don't take much skill besides quick reaction, spatial intelligence, and situational/strategic awareness. I find them easy, whereas someone who is not as skilled marvels at my amazing feats of headshotty goodness. =P
MMORPEGERS usually have very low level entry points and not an incredibly high learning curve. It is a basic business formulae. Make the game as accessible to everyone as you can, while offering LOTS of extra content to those who wish to pursue it. WoW had to have something to it to be able to build such a large player base, it didn't start with however many million people...
This is almost the same indignation PC shooter players felt at the release of the console. They feel a condescension towards console players, and their lack of skill, much as many people feel a condescension towards MMORPG's because they too do not graps some of the skills required.
Every type of game can be boiled down the same way as people do MMORPG's, thus proving they too require no skill:
Shooters: Point and click and someone dies. Run around shooting things.
RTS: Make ressources, make units, kill the other guy.
Fighter: Mash the attack button 'till the other guy dies.
However, I believe everyone who plays these games beyond a basic level will argue that I am dead wrong, that the game is deeper than that, and that it does require skill!
"That game is not the simple atrocity you are trying to make it Sir! That is only a very shallow overview of some of the basics of that type of game, I am outraged!". you say.
And thus I make my point.
/end nerdrage
I once had a hilarious "game" that was modelled after an mmorpg with all the time-consuming parts cut out. Moving between locations for example, finding fetch quests, selling loot, and even combat, since in an mmo everyone uses the same abilities in the same order anyway.
You just put it on, and then either watched it or just went and did something else and watched your character slowly grow. Since everyone in an mmorpg knows the best gear too, the game takes care of that for you as well, and skills and stats.
It shows pretty well how much skill is actually involved in playing most mmo's, when a computer can do it just as well as a player, if not better.
You just put it on, and then either watched it or just went and did something else and watched your character slowly grow. Since everyone in an mmorpg knows the best gear too, the game takes care of that for you as well, and skills and stats.
It shows pretty well how much skill is actually involved in playing most mmo's, when a computer can do it just as well as a player, if not better.
Aimbots? Super-Nazis that can spot you 500 yards away and headshot you?Silver said:
Unfair enemy fighter AI?
Cheating AI that automatically get resources?
The computer can do everything better than a human can, regardless of genre, that's why there's "Hardcore" modes where the AI is suped up and you die in 2 shots, or how the computer can get a whole battalion on your base, or how it can counter every single move you throw at it.
So you found an app that displays some numbers that grow periodicaly? Or does the computer actualy play the game in the same way ai bots play in an fps? If no, your argument is invalid. I can write a program that displays the text "# headshots made so far" that slowly increases as time goes on but that doesn't mean playing an fps is easy as that too.Silver said:
They both require skills, but different ones. FPS games require fast and accurate clicking and limited situational awareness. MMO's require organisation and management abilities. Neither of them is any more "real" then the other and both have their uses. Yes, playing an mmo doesn't make you a great shot in an fps but neither is the average halo/cs/cod player going to win an old style alterac valley match.
If MMOs don't require any skill then how come so many people suck at them? 
MMOs require a somewhat different skillset. They rely more on social skills, teamwork, planning, working the numbers, etc. On the other hand, action games (FPS, fighting and such) rely more on twitch and reflexes. MMOs still benefit from twitch (especially in PvP) and FPSs benefit from teamwork, but both to a lesser degree than the other.
Saying that all it takes to kill an enemy in an MMO is to click on it and wait for it to die is about the same as saying all it takes to kill an enemy in singleplayer FPS is to point at it and click. Yeah, it's technically true, but that's hardly the pinnacle of the genre's challenges...
Also, using WoW as an example of the MMO genre is a low blow since WoW is generally a bit on the easy side. However, it still requires fairly elaborate strategies to take down many of its high-level raids. Add to this the logistics of organising and running raids on a regular basis, guild dynamics, building characters (gear and specs), etc. etc.
Overall, MMOs require skill and the OP is biased.
MMOs require a somewhat different skillset. They rely more on social skills, teamwork, planning, working the numbers, etc. On the other hand, action games (FPS, fighting and such) rely more on twitch and reflexes. MMOs still benefit from twitch (especially in PvP) and FPSs benefit from teamwork, but both to a lesser degree than the other.
Saying that all it takes to kill an enemy in an MMO is to click on it and wait for it to die is about the same as saying all it takes to kill an enemy in singleplayer FPS is to point at it and click. Yeah, it's technically true, but that's hardly the pinnacle of the genre's challenges...
Also, using WoW as an example of the MMO genre is a low blow since WoW is generally a bit on the easy side. However, it still requires fairly elaborate strategies to take down many of its high-level raids. Add to this the logistics of organising and running raids on a regular basis, guild dynamics, building characters (gear and specs), etc. etc.
Overall, MMOs require skill and the OP is biased.
None of the ones I ever played needed skill, just a lot of free time and a high tolerance for repetition. I have neither of those.
I'm voting "no" simply because "to a certain degree" is too easy of an answer. Everything existing in degrees.
MMORPGs are generally low on player influence in success or victory in the game, because the main reward mechanic is focused instead on persistence. They don't want to scare away players with a little thing like needing play the game well, so rewards are not based on how good of a player you are but rather how long you've played.
Sooner or later, many players come to realize this. At that point, they are a MMORPG burnout. Congratulations on reaching the ultimate level: the level in which you realize how pointless wasting your time to accumulate artificial levels is.
Fortunately, modern MMORPGs which are attempting to attract the attention of the burnouts are beginning to realize they need to add a bit of G to their MMORP. As for how effective they have been in these measures... well, lets cut them some slack and say that it is, after all, rather difficult to overcome the technical overhead of a massively multiplayer architecture.
MMORPGs are generally low on player influence in success or victory in the game, because the main reward mechanic is focused instead on persistence. They don't want to scare away players with a little thing like needing play the game well, so rewards are not based on how good of a player you are but rather how long you've played.
Sooner or later, many players come to realize this. At that point, they are a MMORPG burnout. Congratulations on reaching the ultimate level: the level in which you realize how pointless wasting your time to accumulate artificial levels is.
Fortunately, modern MMORPGs which are attempting to attract the attention of the burnouts are beginning to realize they need to add a bit of G to their MMORP. As for how effective they have been in these measures... well, lets cut them some slack and say that it is, after all, rather difficult to overcome the technical overhead of a massively multiplayer architecture.
I'd say I agree to a point. The only people with true skill on WoW and the like are level 80 people who have mastered power leveling...and frankly, that's no skill to be proud of...
depends on what you compare it to, if you compare it to fps games, its about the same level of skill to become good at the game, but if you compare it to something that actually requires real skill, such as competetive RTS gaming, such as Starcraft and the like, MMO's take no skill (when compared to RTS), but yes, if you want to become good in an MMO, you need to have some sort of a skill.
It varies greatly depending on what MMO you play, WoW for example is the easiest MMO i've ever played, takes next to no skill because its all about the gear, but Guild Wars for example, that takes alot of skill to master at higher levels of competetive play, i know, i used to play with some of the best players on american servers back when i played it, and in order to win you had to know exacly what specc to use, what spells to equip and what runes to use before the battle even started, so it took alot of planning and consideration.
Conclusion: compared to RTS games, it takes almost no skill, but there are MMO's that take skill and not just gear.
It varies greatly depending on what MMO you play, WoW for example is the easiest MMO i've ever played, takes next to no skill because its all about the gear, but Guild Wars for example, that takes alot of skill to master at higher levels of competetive play, i know, i used to play with some of the best players on american servers back when i played it, and in order to win you had to know exacly what specc to use, what spells to equip and what runes to use before the battle even started, so it took alot of planning and consideration.
Conclusion: compared to RTS games, it takes almost no skill, but there are MMO's that take skill and not just gear.
TF2 and TF:Classic require (the games you gave as examples of skill):Arsen said:
1. Knowledge of attack patterns (i.e. rocket jumping soldiers + grenades)
2. How to use your own class (don't forget to uncloak in front of an enemy as a spy it's foolproof)
3. Movement technique (STRAFE DAMMIT STRAAAAFE)
I have played both a healer and a tank in end game raids (pre-tbc and tbc), and your argument is really flawed, none of those things are hard if you have the gear for it, for example, healing isnt harder than clicking a target than clicking a button, and as a tank, and ill use your example, when aoe tanking as a tank, you need to position yourself correctly and then spamm 3-5 buttons, it isnt harder than that, and i've tanked both as a warrior and as a paladin in end game raids...zacaron said:
Yes, it can get stressful, no doubt about it, but its not hard at all, takes like 1-2 days of instance/heroic/raid to get the hang of it, after that its easy as hell.
This is complete bullshit.Arsen said:
You could make any genre seem easy by simplifying its goals.
FPS - Shoot people, easy!
Sports - Score, easy!!
RTS - Make loads of guys, and kill the enemy, easy!!!!
See?! That is essentially what you have done. And your poll is biased. Throwing your contrary stance, indirect as it was, into a poll that is supposed to be even, is biased.
And as for your last statement, just because someone plays an MMO, doesn't mean they won't be good at other games. Oh, and by MMO, I'm guessing you mean MMORPG. Because MMO isn't specifically a genre. You can have MMO sports games, MMOFPS games, MMORPG games... The list goes on.
Just because it takes a different kind of skill, doesn't mean it takes no skill at all.
It's not graphical, if that's what you're asking. It does play the game. You can check on all the stats, you can check what it's doing all the time, it tells you what it does all the time, that it's selling stuff, that it's buying stuff, etc.Asehujiko said:
And yeah, I imagine some parts of an mmo does take management skills. Most people in the game though, aren't affected by that part. And I suspect a computer could do it just as well, especially with other computers.
No. No, no, no. No. With the same information, and the same tools as a human has a computer can be beaten, in a fair fight. If the computer has the same information as I have, and nothing more, then I (referring to me as a human, and not an individual, necessarily) can beat it. Not in an MMO, no, probably not in an RTS. In a shooter, yes, as long as I don't try a frontal assault. In a strategy game, yes, definitely, just look at chess. A human can outsmart a computer, and thereby outmanouver and defeat it. That's why it's more fun to play against other humans. It adds another aspect. Sure, a computer will always know better than you just how to maximize their damage output while minimizing the damage it takes, whatever the game, a computer is going to be faster than you, and a computer is going to be able to micromanage everything much better than you, but for all that, it can't outsmart you. It is not capable of creative thought or adaption, something that is required in many games, but not in mmo's. You can sneak up on it. You can divert its attention and you can trick and trap it.Jumplion said:
What you're talking about is abusing a game's mechanics, or even bending a game's mechanics to suit the computer "player". That's not what I'm talking about.
it depends on what mmo you are playing. the only one i ever played was runescape and it really only took persistance and effort to get by. combat was basically arena style sit back and watch stuff. sometimes you used healing stuff but that didnt have much strategy to it.
