Poll: Nintendo's Quality In Consoles (i.e. Motion Controls and 3D)

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TeeBs

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VikingSteve said:
TeeBs said:
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/innovate

By this definition, motion controls are innovative. That does not make them good, not at all. It's much more convenient to not have them. In an era where convenience is a huge asset, motion controls have no place.
I find that convenience is a really horrible argument, are you saying the inconvenience of finding enough room to use the motion controls or inconvenient to stand up to play an actual game, because the former only effects some of the population while the latter could probably be seen as a positive to people who care about their fitness.
 

Chibz

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Phoenix_XIII said:
I respect your opinion. Everyone's opinion varies.

My only problem is that I was born in the controller era. Naturally, motion controls and everything with that seem strange and weird to me. I guess it just has to do with what generation you are. The younger kids can embrace the Wii because they have no real point of comparison. And then others are just better at adapting. I'm not too good with adapting to the new generation of gaming.
It seems that I failed in conveying my message, and for that I apologize.

I don't hate all controllers. Just stupid ones. Like the N64's.
 

MasterV

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Phoenix_XIII said:
The solution:

They need to make something new. And soon.
They already did new things. They were just too afraid to tell the people. Imagine, if Other M was introducing a fresh heroine with a traumatized past. It'd be easier for people to sympathize than it's disastrous inclusion in Metroid canon.

Epic Yarn was to be named Prince Fluff, after the second player's chracter, but they opted to name it Kirby. Why? It was fresh and new. And NOTHING like Kirby anyway.

I could go on, but there's one thing that bugs me and Nintendo (and noone else) never did with the Wii. A great action/adventure game, based around how awesome it'd be to wield your Wiimote as your sword or other weaponry. That's what the Wii lacks and what Nintendo COULD deliver with Skyward Sword. We'll see how that goes.
 

Phoenix_XIII

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Chibz said:
Phoenix_XIII said:
I respect your opinion. Everyone's opinion varies.

My only problem is that I was born in the controller era. Naturally, motion controls and everything with that seem strange and weird to me. I guess it just has to do with what generation you are. The younger kids can embrace the Wii because they have no real point of comparison. And then others are just better at adapting. I'm not too good with adapting to the new generation of gaming.
It seems that I failed in conveying my message, and for that I apologize.

I don't hate all controllers. Just stupid ones. Like the N64's.
N64's was kind of insane. It was big and had a lot of buttons really spread out.
 

Phoenix_XIII

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MasterV said:
Phoenix_XIII said:
The solution:

They need to make something new. And soon.
They already did new things. They were just too afraid to tell the people. Imagine, if Other M was introducing a fresh heroine with a traumatized past. It'd be easier for people to sympathize than it's disastrous inclusion in Metroid canon.

Epic Yarn was to be named Prince Fluff, after the second player's chracter, but they opted to name it Kirby. Why? It was fresh and new. And NOTHING like Kirby anyway.

I could go on, but there's one thing that bugs me and Nintendo (and noone else) never did with the Wii. A great action/adventure game, based around how awesome it'd be to wield your Wiimote as your sword or other weaponry. That's what the Wii lacks and what Nintendo COULD deliver with Skyward Sword. We'll see how that goes.
Nintendo just needs to not be afraid. Hell, if all gaming companies were afraid, we wouldn't have Bulletstorm and we wouldn't have Duke Nukem Forever. Wait... We STILL don't have Duke Nukem forever....

Whatever. Point made. Nintendo needs to take Eminem's advice and not be afraid!
 

CrystalShadow

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VikingSteve said:
Regardless, Sony has kept pretty much the same exact controller design for around 16 years, Xbox changed theirs to mimic Sony's to an extent. Nobody copied anything from Nintendo in the last 15 years except rumble and that is literally it when it comes to controllers.

That should about cover it.
Eh. You are probably correct on most of that.

Of course, the Xbox controller shows it's history in reverting the symbols and colours used for it's buttons to being XYAB in Red, Blue, Green & Yellow.

The most obvious comparison is to a Sony DualShock controller, but that in itself is a very blatant copy of the layout of an SNES controller.

So, Sony made a wholesale copy of another design (presumably changed primarily due to the risk of lawsuits), gradually bolted on extra bits over the years, then a competitor copies their design, and 'coincidentally' makes it look quite a bit like the original that Sony copied?

Actually, hold an Xbox controller next to an SNES controller (Use a European or Japanese Snes controller, because the US one messes up the colour scheme) and it's kind of spooky how much the button layout looks alike.

Sure the order of X and Y, A & B has been swapped, as has the colours of A & Y, but otherwise, it's the same layout, but with a few extras, and a massive ergonomic improvement.

To say it's copied from Sony is technically accurate taking all the additions into account, but a copy of a copy which has an aesthetic design more reminiscent of the original is unlikely to happen completely at random.

Actually, scratch that. You claim Xbox has changed theirs to mimic Sony's, but the layout of the original isn't that different to the current form, and what's more, the current design has always existed, but only for the japanese Xbox. (Later released worldwide as controller 'S' - Presumably because it was designed with smaller hands in mind, and then going on to inspire the standard Xbox 360 controller.)

Best not to point out how people get 'history' wrong (such as the N64 not being the first system with an analog stick) if you're going to make several obvious blunders yourself.

But anyway, I'm sure we can collectively keep correcting each-other for quite some time before we run out of things to correct...
 

Deacon Cole

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Phoenix_XIII said:
...3D? ...something that movies started doing in the 80's and 90's?
Actually, what you're calling 3D is actually stereoscopy. I was invented back in 1838 and was first used in movies in 1952 with Bwana Devil. Incidentally, they used primarily polarized glasses back then, not the red and blue anaglyph as is typically thought. Polarized glasses are used today in most theaters. It has been improved a bit in the last 50 years, but not much.
 

Phoenix_XIII

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the antithesis said:
Phoenix_XIII said:
...3D? ...something that movies started doing in the 80's and 90's?
Actually, what you're calling 3D is actually stereoscopy. I was invented back in 1838 and was first used in movies in 1952 with Bwana Devil. Incidentally, they used primarily polarized glasses back then, not the red and blue anaglyph as is typically thought. Polarized glasses are used today in most theaters. It has been improved a bit in the last 50 years, but not much.
Sorry about my time error. XDD

I just like complaining about how 3D pretty much ruined one of my favorite movie series. Friday the 13th. But as stated earlier, it could've been bad with or without the 3D.
 

Delusibeta

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I can see "the gimmick phase" as you call it to become standard amongst all of the console manufacturers. With increasing competition from the likes of smartphones, tablets and services like OnLive promising to stream games straight to your TV, consoles need to differentiate themselves from the crowd, and frankly MOAR GRAPHIX won't cut it. I can see Microsoft and Sony follow Nintendo in incorporating major changes to get the attention of the audience.

The NGP is rumoured to have a reverse touch screen, and if you incorporate that with a motion controller we could have the next generation of the PlayStation Move. But it's a handheld.

Such a pity that the original post is blatant pandering to the Escapist forum crowd, who generally speaking hates Nintendo. I realise I'm tarring with a broad brush, but that's what I think is the consensus around here.
 

MasterV

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Phoenix_XIII said:
Whatever. Point made. Nintendo needs to take Eminem's advice and not be afraid!
Haha! Pretty much!

Also to stop shoving motion controls down people's throats. I remember when the Wii was marketed as a "play however the feck you like" console. They had motion controls out of the box, but also kept touting the fact that you could hold it sideways for 2D games, attach a classic controller for regular games or even plug in your old GC controller!

And then they go and release DKCR which requires you to shake the controller to attack, when the button 1 is perfectly suited to the task. Or even the, you know, OTHER controllers that could be used by people not comfortable with the wiimote? And now that I said "other", same goes for Other M.

EDIT: It should be noted that, although I seem quite critical of Nintendo, I actually love their games. Not all of them, but when they make good games, I believe they arguably make some of the best games.
 

Phoenix_XIII

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Delusibeta said:
I can see "the gimmick phase" as you call it to become standard amongst all of the console manufacturers. With increasing competition from the likes of smartphones, tablets and services like OnLive promising to stream games straight to your TV, consoles need to differentiate themselves from the crowd, and frankly MOAR GRAPHIX won't cut it. I can see Microsoft and Sony follow Nintendo in incorporating major changes to get the attention of the audience.

The NGP is rumoured to have a reverse touch screen, and if you incorporate that with a motion controller we could have the next generation of the PlayStation Move. But it's a handheld.

Such a pity that the original post is blatant pandering to the Escapist forum crowd, who generally speaking hates Nintendo. I realise I'm tarring with a broad brush, but that's what I think is the consensus around here.
Again, I have a problem getting my words and thoughts organized correctly so I may have accidentally said something I didn't mean. Maybe if gaming companies would put aside their differences and worked together, they could beat smartphones and things like that.
 

CrystalShadow

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Phoenix_XIII said:
CrystalShadow said:
]Eh. The Wii is one thing...

But 3D is hardly new for Nintendo. Seriously look up your history.

Virtual Boy...
Gamecube (yes, the gamecube has the ability to output 3D buried somewhere in it's hardware. It's never been used, but it's there.)

Now the 3DS...

It goes back quite a long way.

And no, duckhunt in 3D wouldn't have been as easy to do as you'd think.

For technical reasons, 3D is trivial once games are in '3d', but quite complicated before that.

When did '3d' become almost standard? N64/PS1 era.

about 95% of current games are '3d' from a technical point of view, they just throw out the depth information to be able to show it on a 2d display.

From that perspective, the 'gimmicky' part of 3d is that the display devices suck.
If that weren't the case, 3d games would be a no-brainer, because most of them already are 3d behind the scenes.
I meant Duck Hunt with wireless motion controls, not 3D.

But I do follow your points and they are very valid.
Lol. My bad. Actually, funny thing there. Did you know old light-gun games (like duck hunt) no longer work on modern TV's?
(The aiming mechanism in a light gun relies on doing something to the display timing on a TV, but it fails when the TV in question isn't a CRT display.)

I've actually seen several such games re-released for the Wii, probably because it's been a while since that was possible on a home console with traditional light gun tech, and because the Wii has something similar built-in in the form of the pointer.


Hungry Donner said:
CrystalShadow said:
For technical reasons, 3D is trivial once games are in '3d', but quite complicated before that.
Good point.

A while back someone released 3D glasses for the PC with an interesting twist, rather than expecting game developers to support this they did the hardware support themselves for every individual game they supported (since this was a single piece of hardware, and no an industry standard, the market was too small to expect developers to support it). From my understanding it was pretty good although I don't believe it lasted all that long.
Hehe. That's another hidden feature in PC graphics hardware that rarely got implemented in the drivers.
Nvidia made a big deal about it for a while in their really old hardware (like around 2000),
But ATI has never mentioned it at all.

Yet, if you see the low-level hardware docs when they gave the info needed to make open source drivers, it makes mention of a 'sync' signal whose only purpose is to allow 3d glasses to work.

More recently, NVidia has brought back their 3d glasses, and interestingly Ati, while not making any glasses available, has given people access to a program that can turn on 3D in a variety of formats suitable for different hardware setups at the driver level.

I played around with it for a while (I have an ATI card), because one of the options is the really cheap old-fashioned red/blue anaglyph glasses...

Suffice to say that makes most games look horrible, but the key thing is that it can be turned on in the driver, and thus works with any game.
(And I've done my own tests, and have yet to see it fail with anything, despite none of the games I tried having been designed with that in mind.)

That's when you realise 3D games might play better in 3D if designed specifically to be in 3D, but it's otherwise entirely down to the hardware to do it, and it can be done with a large proportion of the games made since about 1996 or so.
 

MasterV

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Phoenix_XIII said:
Maybe if gaming companies would put aside their differences and worked together, they could beat smartphones and things like that.
No no no. Please don't fall into this trap. Smartphones have no bearing whatsoever on console and PC videogames. Don't believe everything you see written by people who have interests supporting this notion. People buy smartphone devices as smartphone devices. Not as games consoles. They may have games, yes, but that is hardly a reason people buy them. See the Sony Experia and apparent lack of sales of games for it. Never saw THAT coming mwhahaha.

Trust me on this:Consoles and PCs are not going anywhere. At least not because of th so-called casual gaming or crap like that. The only thing that can destroy the game industry is itself.
 

Phoenix_XIII

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MasterV said:
Phoenix_XIII said:
Maybe if gaming companies would put aside their differences and worked together, they could beat smartphones and things like that.
No no no. Please don't fall into this trap. Smartphones have no bearing whatsoever on console and PC videogames. Don't believe everything you see written by people who have interests supporting this notion. People buy smartphone devices as smartphone devices. Not as games consoles. They may have games, yes, but that is hardly a reason people buy them. See the Sony Experia and apparent lack of sales of games for it. Never saw THAT coming mwhahaha.

Trust me on this:Consoles and PCs are not going anywhere. At least not because of th so-called casual gaming or crap like that. The only thing that can destroy the game industry is itself.
Dude.... That's deep.
 

Ice Car

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MasterV said:
*snip for large post*
I pretty much liked a lot of the stuff you listed as bad, except how long it took to get the sword. If you played it before though, it takes somewhere around 10 to 15 minutes to get it, and even on my first run I got through the "Metal Gear" section in a period of an hour. I actually quite liked that "Metal Gear" section too.

I found the overworld to be interesting, yes, a lot of places were small islands with little to mediocre purpose, but they provided lots of playtime for completionists. Exploring each island and figuring out how some things on the island works, and even revisiting the major islands and finding new things adds a lot of playtime for me. It had a bunch of sidequests to do, the story and game was quite lengthy, the combat was fun as you stated, and there was a lot of optional stuff for completionists like myself to do. Hell, it is among my favorites. My favorite goes back to old school like Link to the Past and Ocarina of Time, and even Majora's Mask, which is my number one favorite. That game is way too underrated. It was fun as hell.

I see what you are saying about how it slowly changed throughout the years, but your idea of them taking a completely different game and slapping names and characters on it is more than a little overboard. To be honest, I've never played the first Zelda game, but I've played just about every other Zelda game to date, and looking more in depth after that post, see how it has changed.

But I don't understand why that is a bad thing. It changed, sure, but was it to something bad? The puzzles are fun to solve, especially in dungeons. If everything was a straightforward "kill everything to move on" it wouldn't be a fun or challenging game. The whole game often gives you something to look forward to, like that new piece of equipment at the next dungeon, or you see some structure that you are sure a piece of equipment utilizes and you want it, like perhaps the targets for the Hookshot/Longshot for example. Sometimes these aren't even straightforward, it takes logic and thought as to how to use some items and other things to move on or get to your desired destination. For example, Twilight Princess in the desert dungeon. The treasure was the Spinner, and a majority of the dungeon had a series of mechanisms utilizing this, and often it involved puzzles and challenges. I believe I got stuck on one part for half an hour as I kept missing the timing or getting hit by the rail running enemies that deal damage and knock you to the floor. The boss battle? I loved it. It was very creative with the usage of the spinner in fighting it. It was fun and challenging, that's for sure...

Backtracking. Now that is a major boosting factor I liked, and as a person who likes to do everything there is to be done in a game before moving on, I do this in every game I've played. It adds many hours of playtime. The main reason I liked the DS Games was probably because it maintained some aspects of Zelda games while allowing me to play it while I can't be sitting in front of a TV. They are not true Zelda games, I acknowledge that completely.

I might also bring up some other games to the discussion of "slapping franchise titles to completely different games".

The Mario and Luigi RPG games. 3 of them, all of them are fun as hell, and are rather humorous. It involves puzzle solving, typical RPG elements, a nice battle system, just an overall good game and it maintains the same Mario-esque feel. It does not feel alien to me at all, and if it does, that is with good reason, as it is purposeful. Example given, the second game has the whole kingdom in destruction for half the game. The plot was wacky, but it was still like an extension of the first game with even more of the stuff I liked.

I also find Fire Emblem and Advance Wars, both similar to each other, to be great games. It involves a large degree of strategy in various areas, logic, etc and is a fun game to play.

Overall, I both agree and disagree with some of your comments. Things have changed over the years, they aren't quite the same, and that they aren't as good as they were back then, but I retain my opinion that things are still good for Nintendo, they crank out great games all the time, and as long as they keep doing the same, taking years to develop a quality game rather than less than a single year, I will remain loyal to them. I do play other consoles and see where Nintendo fails and others succeed, but where Nintendo succeeds and others fail, I stand by them.
 

starwarsgeek

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VikingSteve said:
...

You've got 3 games to support that "we have hardcore games" argument?

Well, I think you've already lost then. Why would I buy a Wii for just 3 games? You're going to have to do better than that.
Nintendo, their subsidiaries, and third parties working on Nintendo titles:

New Super Mario Bros. Wii, Kirby's Epic Yarn, Mario Kart Wii, Wario Land: Shake It!, Punch-Out!!, Donkey Kong Country Returns, Metroid Prime 3, Super Mario Galaxy, Super Mario Galaxy 2, Super Smash Bros. Brawl, Super Paper Mario, Fire Emblem: Radiant Dawn

Capcom:
Monster Hunter Tri, Zack and Wiki: Quest for Barbaros' Treasure, Resident Evil: The Umbrella Chronicles, Resident Evil: The Darkside Chronicles, Tatsunoko vs. Capcom

Sega:
Sonic Colors, House of the Dead: Overkill, Klonoa

Other:
No More Heroes 2, Red Steel 2, GoldenEye Wii, a boy and his blob, Muramasa: The Demon Blade, Deadly Creatures, Blast Works: Build, Trade, Destroy, Jett Rocket, de Blob, Epic Mickey, Little King's Story, Sin and Punishment: Star Successor, Tales of Symphonia: Dawn of the New World, Opoona, Mad World

Non-exclusive games:
The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess, Silent Hill: Shattered Memories, Mega Man 9, Sonic the Hedgehog 4: Episode 1, Cave Story, World of Goo, Konmai's REbirth series, Sam & Max Beyond Time and Space, Sam & Max Save the World, Tales of Monkey Island, No More Heroes

Re-releases of older games:
Super Mario All Stars, Metroid Prime Trilogy, Okami, Resident Evil 4 Wii, Metal Slug Anthology, and the Virtual Console

Backwards Compatibility:
Everything on the Nintendo Gamecube


---
There's a partial list for you. The point I was making in that last post was that the major criticism Nintendo receives is always contradictory to the point that they'll probably never escape from it, not that they make or release "hardcore" or "casual" games, which are just idiotic marketing terms anyway...



Edit: While I'm at it, I may as well respond to the second half.

I'll tell you what people want. They want Nintendo to grow up. The rest of the consoles have done so. Bring in high power tech. Not hardware from 2006. Make some new games that cater to the audience you lost. Stop making so many God damn cutesy children-appeal games so that we can stop labeling you as the kids console. In other words... stop appealing to people under the age of 15.

That's just a start.
There's no reason for consoles to be on the cutting edge of graphics technology...I don't want to see consoles costing 4-digits sometime in the next decade. All it seems to do is tempt people into making boring, terrible looking "realism" games anyway.

As for "growing up", I'm tired of writing, so I'll just leave you with a quote from C.S. Lewis. "When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up."
 

Phoenix_XIII

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I think Nintendo is doing what it's always been said to be (kind of). They're trying to be a family gaming company. And that's why they don't appeal to a lot of us. Most of the games they advertise (Along with everything from Microsoft's Kinect) are family games. And that is EXACTLY why they don't appeal to a lot of us. A lot of us don't want family games. I'm actually kind of anti-social. Strangely, I like Animal Crossing. Though it's forced faux-social interaction, it's funa nd kind of makes me feel like I'm really interacting with them. And I'm okay with games like that. I own the Wii version and DS version of Animal Crossing (plus I owned the original) and they were good. But they were more of a personal thing. There was no true multiplayer in the first one, and when they added it in, it got better.

What I'm getting at is, Nintendo obviously won't appeal to everyone. Even though they're trying to appeal to non-family gamers, they aren't doing TOO well with that. Some of their non-family games are good, but then you've got Other M which ruined Samus' character completely.

My Point? Other M was bad and shouldn't have been a Metroid game. It should've been a different game. Then it would've been good.
 

Waaghpowa

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Phoenix_XIII said:
Other M was bad and shouldn't have been a Metroid game. It should've been a different game. Then it would've been good.
The attempt at story and characterization was poorly executed, gameplay was new and interesting. Nothing like jumping around dodging attacks while blasting alien faces off.
 

Troublesome Lagomorph

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The DS has been pretty good, imo. Some annoying things like voice control and blowing into the mike. Seriously, you don't want to do that when you're on the bus or something.

The Wii... awful.