Poll: NYTimes covers sexual harassment in the gamer community

[Treblaine]

I am in favour of grassroots change, things have to work at the business end, right in the servers.

PC gaming I've found to be quite clean from admins policing on a one-to-one basis, their server, their responsibility. Much like how this website has effective moderation.

Microsoft's problem is their top-down control can never get the right balance between stopping abusers and not over-reacting and banning people for harmless banter.

Console could learn from the PC privately run server model with accountable admins and moderated community and forums. This is going to come from the bottom up but the responsibility of the big companies is to allow and encourage this.

This shit again?

Tell me something, what exactly is the difference between a quick mute/block function and a boot off the server from the harassed individual's point of view? Not a whole lot.

A mute option can be implemented at whim. And you may play on servers with admins who give a shit, but that is hardly the majority. There are just as many if not more servers with little to no work done by the admins to keep it clean. And that's not even accounting for the servers where the admin is the one doing the harassing.

But by all means keep pretending the PC community is any more mature than the console community.

The difference with bans and kicks is the perpetrator pays the penalty and is discouraged from doing it in future rather than everyone else on there having to hunt around for the abusers name from a list and not silence them, just deafen themselves to them. Really the harm they can do before muting them just detracts from what should be a good experience and continues because they are never kicked out. If you did this in a pub or bar you'd soon find you have to change your attitude just to avoid the inconvenience of all the decent latency servers blocking you.

What I am talking about with servers is good grassroots movements, something much easier on servers where individuals take personal responsibility, rather than COD style matchmaking console-hosted model. So many Minecraft projects would not work at all without servers that are policed by dedicated users to stop trolls breaking everything that people make, not that breaking shit doesn't happen but only amongst good friend who know what the limits are.

The thing is the intimidation value of admins kicking bad sportsmen keeps many from trolling for risk of being banhammered from a valuable low lag server.

The results speak for themselves, playing on PC you get much less abuse and trolling than you find on Xbox 360. I have had enough with Xbox 360, fugging done with it.

 

[Aeonknight]

snip

You're assuming that a banhammer even intimidates these people. they're not there to play the damn game, they're there for the same reason that anyone that trolls people ever has.

Minecraft is a different game, there's no competitive nature to it so naturally there's going to be less trolling.

pop in TF2 and see how many porn sprays you find, despite it being the oh so mature PC master race.

Hell you're more likely to be kicked for being better than the admin than to be kicked because you harassed a girl (unless the girl is hooked up with the admin.)

 

[Treblaine]

snip

You're assuming that a banhammer even intimidates these people. they're not there to play the damn game, they're there for the same reason that anyone that trolls people ever has.

Minecraft is a different game, there's no competitive nature to it so naturally there's going to be less trolling.

pop in TF2 and see how many porn sprays you find, despite it being the oh so mature PC master race.

Hell you're more likely to be kicked for being better than the admin than to be kicked because you harassed a girl (unless the girl is hooked up with the admin.)

I'm not saying it terrifies them but it has more of an effect than a few players muting them imperceptibly.

The thing is largely they are there to play the game and even if they just came there to troll they get kicked out and soon will end up blacklisted.

Porn sprays? 358 hours of TF2 I can't remember any and certainly none "obscene", faintly remember seeing a spray like a topless woman once. You can't get away with sprays, as what you spray stays on the record and is easy to hold against you.

Are you sure you didn't mean to say "Pony Sprays" as they are EVERYWHERE.

Again, the results speak for themselves. I have hears Westbro Baptist rants on Black Ops on Xbox 360. On PC Black Ops I heard a guy ask another guy out on a date and agree to Steam message their phone numbers to each other. Not a single homophobic comment. not even an "eeeeeww". Just one account.

I can't emphasise enough change; comes from the bottom. But change isn't going to happen with the current way XBox Live is arranged.

 

[Phasmal]

Snip.

Just gonna add I play a lot of TF2 (though not as much as I would like, my laptop runs like a slideshow), and I can definately attest to the porn sprays. Seen a bunch of them.
I'm not saying that Xbox Live isn't a shit-pit, because it clearly is, but PC gaming is not exactly clean either.

 

[Treblaine]

Snip.

Just gonna add I play a lot of TF2 (though not as much as I would like, my laptop runs like a slideshow), and I can definately attest to the porn sprays. Seen a bunch of them.
I'm not saying that Xbox Live isn't a shit-pit, because it clearly is, but PC gaming is not exactly clean either.

Hmm, maybe I tune the porn out, yet I remember the pony sprays? Maybe you join more servers in a different region from me with different predilections.

 

[Phasmal]

Snip.

Just gonna add I play a lot of TF2 (though not as much as I would like, my laptop runs like a slideshow), and I can definately attest to the porn sprays. Seen a bunch of them.
I'm not saying that Xbox Live isn't a shit-pit, because it clearly is, but PC gaming is not exactly clean either.

Hmm, maybe I tune the porn out, yet I remember the pony sprays? Maybe you join more servers in a different region from me with different predilections.

Could be something like that, could also be that I do tend to look for sprays because I've seen some really funny ones in my time (my boyfriend had one that was the portal cake from far away but when you got close it was a Spy with a cake mask).
The awesome sprays usually well outnumber the disturbing ones, though.

 

[Treblaine]

Snip.

Just gonna add I play a lot of TF2 (though not as much as I would like, my laptop runs like a slideshow), and I can definately attest to the porn sprays. Seen a bunch of them.
I'm not saying that Xbox Live isn't a shit-pit, because it clearly is, but PC gaming is not exactly clean either.

Hmm, maybe I tune the porn out, yet I remember the pony sprays? Maybe you join more servers in a different region from me with different predilections.

Could be something like that, could also be that I do tend to look for sprays because I've seen some really funny ones in my time (my boyfriend had one that was the portal cake from far away but when you got close it was a Spy with a cake mask).
The awesome sprays usually well outnumber the disturbing ones, though.

Yeah, awesome outnumbering the disturbing, that's a good idiom for the internet.

 

[Andre Rapp]

A good read for the most part, however a few things are left out.
- they write the article as if gaming is the only place of bigotry
- they make it seem like bigotry is exclusively flung toward women
- they never mention Sarkeesian went trolling on 4chan to get her "proof" of abuse

Other then that it's a well written article, and it does outline the very real problem with this ever growing community.

Those things aren't really relevant to the topic of sexual harassment against women on games. One of them doesn't concern games, one of them doesn't concern women and one of them is completely irrelevant. Plus I'd say sexism is far more commonly associated with gaming than say homophobia or racism.

http://www.twitlonger.com/show/g65iqn

Ah you misogynistic fuckwit, bet you were surprised when your shit got the attention of a national newspaper. "Mild hostility"?! There's trash talking then there's bullying, one is ok, one means you've probably ended your career right there.

unfortunately for your point, they ARE deeply related to the topic. I don't care what gender you are, to me your just another person online, and every now and then i run into a girl who finds the fact that i don't change my demeanor as insulting. so the issues DO go both ways, in fact it has been proven that our society is more tolerant of women abusing men then the other way around. it isn't just gaming, and the only reason gaming has so much hate in the chat is because it is an anonymous forum, you can find the same thing across the internet.

and yes, that jackass from that tournament is a horrible person, and such issues need to be addressed, but we should be careful not to go down the slippery slope of "political correctness". A truly equal society is not one where nobody is ever offended, its one where nobody fears offending other people, and where people can be offended and deal with it like adults.

 

[runic knight]

This shit again...

Ok, where to start. Could go with the mention that "gamer community" is about as fair a statement to describe gamers as "cat community" is to describe felines ranging from house cats to lions. Game players are a varied band of people often solely comparable to another only though the shared hobby. You can find misogynist assholes, feminist, Liberals and conservatives all playing games. Trying to point to one subgroup as representative of the whole is like pointing at one denomination of religion and saying they represent the whole. It is bullshit logic, clear and simple. I've argued this time and again when that stupid kickstarter caused a fuss a while back and I will again if I have to.

The simple truth is that gaming is a hobby, not a philosophical measuring stick that can reveal the assholes. It is open to a lot of people and unfortunate as that is, you will get vocal asshats, especially noticeable because they are so vocal. That is not the fault of the hobby though, and any attempt to say the hobby gathers them ignores reality (and the fact most players are decent enough people), and forgets that people will come together over hobbies they share, and with something as broad as gaming, were 60% of the populating and up play it, that is a lot of people.

Now, you can make a case that the industry follows similar themes and many triple A titles and publishers rely on sexist ideas and terrible story telling cliche's. This is true and certainly deserving of change. But it seems wrong to look at the audience of these games the same way. I am willing to put up with poor customer service if the food is good at a restaurant. There is a limit but I can deal with a little attitude to get good grub. I feel the same about video games. I can put up with cliche's and stupid representations if the gameplay is fun or the story slightly interesting as a whole. I am sure most gamers feel the same, to one degree or another.

A lot of what is brought up as issues is not limited to gaming but to anonymity. Put an asshole held in check by societal restrictions behind a wall of anonymity, and watch them become the true asshole at heart they are. You see this online in chats as well as games, it is just often the medium used is gaming as it is a reason victims are hanging around in the first place. If people want that to change, they either have to give up anonymity or actually promote a society that gives a shit about how other people are affected by their actions. There is reason and benefit to anonymity, though I think it is the easier route to take to remove it. A sad day and one I would fight, but certainly seems how a lot of game companies have been addressing things.

 

[Shpongled]

snip

You're assuming that a banhammer even intimidates these people. they're not there to play the damn game, they're there for the same reason that anyone that trolls people ever has.

Minecraft is a different game, there's no competitive nature to it so naturally there's going to be less trolling.

pop in TF2 and see how many porn sprays you find, despite it being the oh so mature PC master race.

Hell you're more likely to be kicked for being better than the admin than to be kicked because you harassed a girl (unless the girl is hooked up with the admin.)

With PC games with dedicated servers you can just choose servers that moderate themselves effectively. There are plenty of them. I can't remember the last time i saw any sort of harassment take place on any of the servers i play on of the various PC games i play. Because people know if they start shit they're just going to get banned right there and then. I've never seen an admin kick someone for being better than them, if you have, then read above, go find a better server to play on, there are plenty out there for all games.

With xbox live this option does not exist, servers are never moderated directly by individuals actually playing on the server, the worst that players can expect for harassment is a report, and then a possible ban in a couple of weeks time.

If you're experiencing harassment on PC games with dedicated servers then you just aren't trying hard enough to avoid it to be quite honest. Not to say that doesn't mean it's a problem, but the fact of the matter is that playing PC multiplayer games are overall more pleasant experiences than xbox live games.

As for porn sprays, jesus christ get over yourself. There's porn everywhere and if it ain't porn then its pretty much porn only with nipples covered up plastered over billboards and saturated on TV. If porn is a problem at all (which i whole heartedly disagree with, it's just a human fucking body for christ sake) then it's a problem ingrained in society itself, it's fuck all to do with gaming.

And to the females in this thread, you aren't the only people online being harassed for no apparent reason, i got the same shit all the time playing xbox live just for having a northern english accent. Don't feel victimized, this isn't about bigotry or sexism, it's about kids being idiots and not getting punished for it, perpetuating their idiocy. Yes, it sucks to get abuse just for using your mic, i know exactly what you're talking about, but for Gods sake make use of that mute button, it's there for a reason.

 

[Easton Dark]

The more attention it gets, the better. I want parents to read this and think back to if their child has ever said anything along those lines and take action.

Harassment to anyone is wrong. Some people are fucking pricks, and I wish anonymity wasn't a thing. I have no problem saying who I am, because I'm polite.

Just wanted to point this out though:

Are you sure you didn't mean to say "Pony Sprays" as they are EVERYWHERE.

No one was mentioning ponies, no one was referencing them, none of them anywhere. If a pony discussion sparks, it's on your head.

 

[Something Amyss]

So, how do we sound?

Largely, like dicks. I'd say this would be a great time to step up and make ourselves look better, but most people will make excuses, blame the victim, or pretend it's not happening.

Who is we?

And more importantly, why does my "we" even include some weird fighting game tournament perverts and a few "trolls" who got entirely too butthurt over someone running a small time con on kickstarter.

I don't even know or care about any of these people.

Mmmm...Downplaying the issue.

- they write the article as if gaming is the only place of bigotry

No, they write it as if it's the place that's being looked at.

- they make it seem like bigotry is exclusively flung toward women

They look at it as though it's the issue they're addressing. And since they even mention how much of it is geared toward women, their not covering everyone is apt.

- they never mention Sarkeesian went trolling on 4chan to get her "proof" of abuse

[citation needed]

 

[ProtoChimp]

A good read for the most part, however a few things are left out.
- they write the article as if gaming is the only place of bigotry
- they make it seem like bigotry is exclusively flung toward women
- they never mention Sarkeesian went trolling on 4chan to get her "proof" of abuse

Other then that it's a well written article, and it does outline the very real problem with this ever growing community.

When did she troll? Did I miss something?

 

[Pearwood]

so the issues DO go both ways

I'm not arguing, just saying that's a different topic. Personally I don't think the real-world impact of sexism against men extends much further than needing to ignore a few annoying people now and then, the more extreme situations like the one I mentioned before where someone was sabotaged when trying to win a huge amount of money are almost exclusively against women. Bringing a case where someone got all pissed off over a man opening a door for her hardly compares to that so why would any journalist bring it up? Perhaps the lack of inclusion of an equally severe case of sexism against men in gaming suggests there simply wasn't one recent enough to call news.

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

snip

Perhaps you would like to listen to this BBC documentary that offers actual proof. Including a woman being harassed that he is interviewing at the time and a guy defending gaming compares it to a 'strip club...' I'll let you draw what you want from that analogy.

Denying there is a problem, when there clearly is one, isn't going to help anybody at this point.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p00s9jly

 

[A Weakgeek]

It easier to be a bloke gamer, I know. I've experienced it, pretending to be a guy does make it easier so I don't blame any girls who do.

This interests me. Ofcourse, it depends alot on what kind of games you play (Voice chat ofcourse is a thing on its own), but how often, and in what kind of situations do you need to pretend to be male online? Because I feel that whenever I play online, even though I chat alot with strangers, the gender never comes up. Never do I feel that something I say or do indicates that I'm male.

I've read studies that indicate that mmos are popular with girls and women. So I guess MMOs ,where you are more probable to spend more time socializing with the same people, it might come into play more often. I don't play alot of MMOs so maybe thats why I find the whole gender issue a bit weird.

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

snip

So I'm guessing you didn't actually listen to the documentary then which not only takes opinions from each side of the argument but also states that it's a vocal minority that needs sorted out. This defensive knee jerk reaction is just going to set it back. It also doesn't involve Sarkeesian... Mentioning Anita Sarkeesian's name is like mentioning Lucifer at the moment I swear.

You may also want to check out these two sites

http://fatuglyorslutty.com/
http://www.notinthekitchenanymore.com/

Which have plenty of proof on online sexual harassment. I guess you think that is all swamp gas though yeah?