Poll: Obesity: fat people or true illness?

[Seldon2639]

Obesity does not happen over night. If someone can see that they are becoming obese, they should exercise a bit more & eat a bit less than someone else. Clearly they do not need to eat as much as a regular person, which should be a benefit to them financially speaking, but instead they carry on eating too much/not doing enough exercise for no reason other than they can't be bothered to change.

Like I said, we're going in circles. The difference between cancer, then, and obesity, is the ability to see the outward changes, and alter behavior as a result. Let's ignore that obesity is a positive feedback loop (the more overweight you become, the easier it is to become more so). The immediacy of the outcome is what you find different between obesity and "disease". That's fine in a normative sort of way, and like I said it would make it easier to detect obesity earlier and arguably treat, but that doesn't resolve everything. What you end up having to argue (based on your acceptance of differing levels of risk) is that those who are at risk of obesity must not only act normally, but act better than normally in order to prevent becoming obese. That's fine, but then why is obesity itself not a disease in the same way diabetes is a disease? You can take steps to prevent it, but the risk is always there? Why is it not like alcoholism, or cancer, ect? Why don't we divorce the two ideas: the risk of obesity from the reality of it. Why not say that the risk of obesity is a disease (even if it's under control, and even if it never "flares up" as it were), while the reality of obesity is the failure to control the disease? If I have MS, there are ways for me to lessen the episodes, and depending on the type even eliminate them for long periods of time. But I'll still have MS, whether it shows or not.

My assumption is that even if someone is more susceptible to becoming fat, they could very easily change their diet and lifestyle to accommodate this. But for whatever reason, they do not. Not to mention the millions of people that comfort eat, which is about as healthy as smoking, and for the same reason. If it did not harm anyone else that would be fine, but it costs people more in taxes and many other social issues.
I have never said that obesity is always a choice. I don't always write it as repetition shouldn't be needed, but my view here is a general one. Of course people who are obese due to physical or mental conditions such as asthma do not fall into the "they can easily change their lifestyle" category. But with the rise in obesity and lack of it in the past, it is clear medical reasons are not the cause of the obesity crisis, but simply a lack of moderation.

This is were normative words like "moderation" give us a hiccup. Moderation (in this sense) is usually used to indicate the average normal actions, or at least what is acceptable for the average person to do. The issue is that what is acceptable for the "average" person would cause obesity in a pre-disposed person. The issue is not a "lack of moderation" but a lack of taking extra steps beyond moderation. There are simply not that many cases of obese people who eat grotesquely more than "normal" people. So, let's eliminate the groups that you accept aren't a choice (other medical conditions), and the ones I don't dispute are all choice (grotesque overeating). For the vast majority in the middle, the reason they gain more weight is because they are physiologically predisposed to do so even if they act in ways similar to non-obese peers.

You say that someone should adjust for their risk factors, and I agree. But that doesn't make it any less a purely medical disease. Take someone with melanoma. If he was told when he was young that he had a higher risk, but chose to sunbathe anyway, would you say "nope, you don't get any sympathy, because it's not a real medical disease, you chose the actions that gave it to you"? Or would you say "damn, that sucks. You shouldn't have sunbathed, but that still sucks." If the latter, now imagine that he *didn't* know his risk factor. You'd probably just say "god, that sucks".

Before you say "but people can't tell if they're getting cancer": a tan (much less a sunburn) is a physiological indication of damage. They can see themselves being put at risk for cancer, yet choose to do it anyway. What's the bloody difference?

 

[shannon.archer]

Why should somebody who is overall endangering the human race through the over consumption of resources along with the mutation that they are doing to their own genes by maintaining that lifestyle be sympathised for.

Because they are not overconsuming resources. We could all be fat if there were just *less* of us.

If anything, obesity is keeping us from overtaxing the planet by reducing our fertility. It's the people who are having too many kids, not too many cheeseburgers that are creating overconsumption.

Speaking of which, someone who stays fat on sustainable agriculture is less of a tax on the resources than someone who consumes less food, but consumes it from agriculture that is not sustainable.

so what your saying is that being fat is good becuase we will be unable to bear youth. and that all fat people eat staples??? And what is agriculture that is not sustainable. Im pretty sure that all current agriculture is sustainable otherwise it would not exist thanks to capatilism. If a plant was unable to be grown and sold at a reasonable price who would buy it??? therefore who would produce it. Your argument is flawed and is unable to stand.

I am sure that when we look to the future and see everyone as over wieght will we regard obesity as a disease? Or will we look back and think geez that was the most awful decline in humanity since the dark ages.

There were no 'dark ages'. That's a concept made up by the Renaissance people because they didn't like the culture of the middle ages.

Example...

Fat people deserve to be prejudiced against as without criticism how will they ever motivate themselves to change?

One, why should they change?

Two, did you ever think of supportive encouragement as a way to motivate them to change?

Ok so when you have needed to get something down what has helped you get something done faster??? Someone jumping down your throat or someone gently coaxing you along. Aggresive motivation is what they need they get the satisfaction after they have lost the weight and if we make it pleasant what stops them from merely gaining the weight again??? Aside from the guarentee of hell if they do not stay fit.

My hope is they become sterile before they get a chance to have children who are bound to share the same misguided qualities as there parents

I'd much rather have fat but kind, industrious, and clever people breeding then fit people who behave terribly towards their fellow human over so superficial a characteristic as obesity.

Oh yeah that makes sense. How about we look at what the human being is capable of and how letting our standards drop so that obesity becomes "acceptable" is ridiculous. Think of the health problems that come with it. Our bodies are reduced to lifespans up to half of what they can be. Obesity related diseases would flourish "taxing" our medical facilities. All types of human made objects would have to be created to suit the obese person. through obesity the human race is limiting itself severely and it is easy to see obesity as a disability. People abuse their bodies and then when they are told its wrong see fit to cry and make excuses. I dont think so. Why should everyone be accepted when sometimes it is obvious that they are doing the wrong thing. Nothing good comes from obesity therefore why should good be shown to those that are obese. Sure they are good people but that is even more initiative to be fit so that the good people of this world can prolong their lives and share what they have to the rest of the world. I have no problem with obese people but i do have a problem with those people who excuse what they do and complain when they recieve criticism.

 

[shannon.archer]

Yes but via stopping obese people are not subject to death are they?

Not sure what you're asking me.

Haha i get what you mean. Obesity is a disease just not one of the physical sense. Like anorexia and bulimia the reasons for it are completely psychological therefore can be cured by the person and not any number of miracle cures.

 

[shannon.archer]

You go on about how people should respect one another, but how can you expect people who clearly have no respect for their body, health, or life?

First of all, expect WHAT? Expect them for dinner? Expect them like one waits for mail, all Lost and Dropped, and Canceled? Try complete sentences next time.

Second, again--none of that is a response to what I said.

Sorry--you're either unwilling or unable to have a responsive conversation with.

+1 for being pedantic.
How can you expect people to respect the obese who (in generally) clearly have no respect for their body, health or life?

That's a valid question. However, because you have no interest in sticking to questions and their logical follow-ups and will instead use any substantive response from me as an excuse to spam the thread with more hate speech, I decline to discuss it with you.

Bull, that's a cop out.
Plus, you never have once said why someone should be fat or the advantages of being fat. Until you can give some, it deserves the social stigma as it is nothing more (in general) then people refusing to eat in moderation.
Again, no reason why someone should have to pay because of someones lack of moderation.

It just kinda proves that when this guy is cornered he just calls time out. Hmm make a great politician though. Knows how to avoid the hard questions by just blatantly and ignorantly ingnoring them.

 

[Matronadena]

I'm of the world where I have a hyper thyroid, however what it does is not keep be gaining weight, it's hard for me to keep it. I have to consume almost three times the suggested calories/carbs/complex, and simple proteins to stay functional, when my diet is thrown off I get very very fatigued, irrational, almost like Im hypoglycemic, which later goes to trigger Transient Ischaemic Attacks ( micro strokes, or small seizures ( basically the fat in the brain is broken down that neurons misfire and I short out"

this is all very very controllable, so it's not really a threat but being a woman that stands at almost 6 foot, keeping myself in the 150lb ( 150-160 is perfect for my height and body frame) range can be tough, more so if Im sick...

so all that rambeling to the side there is alot of things in the body that can go wrong and screw with weight.. and again the body frame and even genetic/ancestral adaptations can play a major roll in this, but when it is something that is negatively effecting ones health, there usually is something that can be done about is should someone really want to " though admittedly some of those options can be costly should one go that route"

 

[Peaterson Is Back]

I feel that being fat is your own chioce because you can work off the acsess fat

 

[Svenparty]

It depends on what you view an addiction, if you view addiction as a illness then obesity is an illness.

 

[dwightsteel]

Ok, this is a topic that I personally find myself talking about a lot. Matzy, I disagree on your last point. For some, it's not easily avoided. Weight has always been an issue in my family. I am, slightly obese. Fortunately, I don't fall under the people who are 400+ lbs, and have trouble walking without getting winded, but none the less, I can easily claim to be heavyset. Do to hormones and metabolism, there was no way for it to be "easily avoided" in my case. I do agree that obesity has no advantages, and that it's not beyond anyone to take steps to either correct or avoid it, but to claim that it's a simple issue is a narrow minded view. I've been eating better and exercising regularly, and hopefully one day, obesity won't be an issue for me, but for someone like me, the process is an incredibly slow one.

It's true that there are people blessed with speedy metabolisms, and that they manage to beat them and gain weight regardless, and I would also agree that frivolous lawsuits to places like McDonalds don't do obese people any credit, but not all obese people are like this. It's a stereotype like any other. People need to take a look at their prejudices against obese people, and see it as it is, a problem, a fixable problem, but one that isn't as clear cut as you would feel better believing.