Poll: PC Gaming, what type of mouse?

[malmodir]

How much buttons I use depends on the game, but I already used all the ten buttons my mouse has when playing MMO's.

 

[Treblaine]

Such as caps-lock toggles M2 from "stab with knife" to "fire under-barrel grenade launcher".

Toggles mean modes and modes are crap UI in general. Not just my opinion, but researched fact. There is usually little reason to use them. Use quasimodes (= hold down) instead, and if there is a transition between modes (like pushing gun forwards to go into ADS) don't let that block any other actions (like firing) which would not logically be blocked by it, not even for an instant.

The other problem with that example is that you have assigned a default command to Caps Lock. A lot of folks I know have long since remapped their Caps Locks to something more useful. One of my keyboards doesn't have a Caps Lock to begin with.

At least until stereoscopic 3D is standard and works very well, I regard the "click to stab" mechanic defective, because it hinges on very accurate time-and-distance tracking that just doesn't exist on a first person view through a 2D screen with inaccurate movement control. It is a fun kind of challenge IRL - I do fencing - but I believe close combat in a FPS should mostly occur automatically. There are some games where melee has been integrated decently in different ways, for instance Action Quake 2 and Aliens vs Predator (1999).

Lean:
In a lean-enabled FPS I use Q to lean right and E to lean left. In practice you always want to lean in the direction you are moving, and doing the buttons the "right way" prevents that because the same finger would have to press both.

As for the mouse, I have one of the best mice on the market when it comes to the accessibility and quality of M4 and M5 buttons (Razer Lachesis). Nevertheless, I never use anything but M1 and M2 because just like you, I feel doing so affects my aiming speed and control - not even when I made a foray in a MMO and sorely needed more buttons, having already used all conceivable combos including Ctrl+G for spells.

Hmm, I've tried "Shift = Aim Down Sights" in many FPS games as both Modes and Quasimodes... I find my pinkie is not up to the job of holding down on the key firmly without unduly affecting using the other keys. It just got too uncomfortable, I find mode/toggle to work best though often depend on any action though that mode is cancelled with any extreme action like initiating sprint, melee or something.

Though I am still left with the dilemma of how to handle:
(1)weapons' alternate fire, like M203 grenade launcher
and
(2) throw-able weapons ranging from grenades, to knives to flashbangs

I don't think those can be left to be fired/thrown directly from a keystroke, and also I don't think I can mount them to M4/M5 as you said, even if the buttons are there (and for half they are not) they seem to interfere too much with aiming ability.

I'm experimenting with using Z+X for lean by reaching under with my Left thumb. The thumb is so under utilised, being used pretty much solely for "Space to jump" in conventional game layout and really the last thing you'd need to so when leaning round a corner is jumping. I think this has the advantage in that the WASD finger position remains essentially unchanged for moving left and right and so on.
Though I'd really like a game that had an automatic lean, so if you just peek around a corner, an enemy perspective will see your torso hugged in behind the cover. Or some how a "sticky lean" so you just have to press the lean to hold your lean in that direction, then exit ADS mode if you need to get back in cover quick.

One area I'd really like to look into is analogue hight adjustment. That is you can continuously adjust you eye level to just peek over the top of cover and get the perfect angle through small "loopholes" in walls.

"Use quasimodes (= hold down) instead, and if there is a transition between modes (like pushing gun forwards to go into ADS) don't let that block any other actions (like firing) which would not logically be blocked by it, not even for an instant."

I'd like to directly address this.

In CoD games (for example) to use your weapon's secondary attack (under-barrel grenade-launcher) you have to press a button... you might as well be selecting a whole new weapon it takes so long and to spite holding a rifle like an M16 you can't fire the rifle in self defence while reloading. Which goes back to what you are saying "don't let that block any other actions" it effectively is here. The design brief for the real-world M203 was entirely based on the idea the soldier could still shoot in self defence while reloading.

Though I can see the dilemma, how "crap" it can be to enter a mode where all of a sudden you cannot melee but the melee button fires a grenade.

Hmm, maybe Caps-lock button could be to directly fire the weapon's alt-attack. A bit awkward, I don't have that much control over my pinkie, I couldn't depend on it for as millisecond-perfect timing of shot nor rapid fire.

 

[octafish]

I think you can safely rely on people having a three button mouse with scroll wheel, anyone else can rebind actions to their other buttons. It makes sense not to limit anything to only those who have gaming mice. I'll nearly always bind something to my thumb buttons, usually grenades or reload, but that should be an option not standard..

 

[e2density]

My Whole TF2 Binds CFG

Spoiler

bind "e" "+mate_forward"
bind "s" "+mate_moveleft"
bind "d" "+mate_back"
bind "f" "+mate_moveright"
bind "mouse1" "+attack"
bind "mouse2" "+attack2"
bind "mouse3" "+quickswitch"
bind "mwheelup" ""
bind "mwheeldown" "+jump"
bind "0" "mate_slot10"
bind "1" "mate_slot1"
bind "2" "mate_slot2"
bind "a" "mate_slot3; bind g toggle2"
bind "4" "mate_slot4"
bind "5" "mate_slot5"
bind "6" "mate_slot6"
bind "7" "mate_slot7"
bind "8" "mate_slot8"
bind "9" "mate_slot9"
bind "mouse4" "mate_call_medic"
bind "g" "toggle1"
bind "u" "say_team"
bind "y" "say"
bind "x" "taunt"
bind "i" "mate_toggle_minmode"
bind "," "changeclass"
bind "." "changeteam"
bind "\" "toggleconsole"
bind "-" "mate_toggle_netgraph"
bind "m" "open_charinfo"
bind "n" "+quickswitchmenu"
bind "space" "+cj"
bind "c" "+duck"
bind "p" "exec autoexec.cfg"
bind "kp_minus" "hud_reloadscheme"
bind "tab" "+mate_scores"
bind "escape" "cancelselect"
bind "shift" "+mate_joinclass"
bind "rshift" "+mate_joinclass"
bind "z" "say got 'em coach"
bind "3" "mate_slot3"
bind "home" "exec m.cfg"
bind "b" "+voicerecord"
bind leftarrow +attack2
bind rightarrow +attack
bind uparrow +jump
bind downarrow +duck
bind "kp_ins" "demoui"
bind "shift" "+mate_joinclass"
bind "ins" "mp_restartgame 2"
bind "v" "von"
bind "0" "togglesay1"
bind "q" "lastdisguise"
bind "f5" "jpeg_quality 100; jpeg"
bind "f1" "vol1"
unbind "t"

Most of them are very specific, so you wouldn't know what they do, but that shows my ESDF movement, G to toggle between slot1 and slot 2 (you'd have to see my aliases.cfg in order for it to make sense, though)

And on my mouse I use mwheeldown = jump (cant get rid of those old bhop tricks); mouse4 = call for med, mouse5 = talk in mumble; mouse3 = quickswitch items; mouse1 = fire; mouse 2 i use depending on the class.

I do have a really large tailored config with very specific things, so I need every button on my mouse I can get. I'd prefer to have a couple more, actually. Again, G500 mouse.

 

[Nutcase]

Hmm, I've tried "Shift = Aim Down Sights" in many FPS games as both Modes and Quasimodes... I find my pinkie is not up to the job of holding down on the key firmly without unduly affecting using the other keys. It just got too uncomfortable, I find mode/toggle to work best though often depend on any action though that mode is cancelled with any extreme action like initiating sprint, melee or something.

The pinkie is the weakest finger. The thumb is the strongest. I find the very best buttons for actions for someone using WASD are C, V and space. For the most critical and frequent actions (in your game's case, maybe ADS, secondary fire and melee?) those are the buttons I try to use.

Though I am still left with the dilemma of how to handle:
(1)weapons' alternate fire, like M203 grenade launcher
and
(2) throw-able weapons ranging from grenades, to knives to flashbangs

I don't think those can be left to be fired/thrown directly from a keystroke, and also I don't think I can mount them to M4/M5 as you said, even if the buttons are there (and for half they are not) they seem to interfere too much with aiming ability.

You probably should have alt-fire on a single keystroke anyway, it's important enough.

Regarding grenades, in a fast-paced, less realistic game like Counter-Strike, I find it fun and good to have one button which equips and throws a grenade on the same press, and another button for flashbangs. If the game was on the realistic side, the process of switching to a grenade would be a good deal slower to begin with, you wouldn't have such reflexive grenade-throws as in CS, so the requirements for UI are different.

Knife throwing? "Select knife, fire mode select, fire" perhaps? Action Quake 2 does it like that. AQ2 doesn't have alt fire, but if it did, I suppose it could also go "select fire, alt fire" to throw straight up. Throwing kind-of makes sense as a separate mode because the initial grip is different than the one used for stabbing.

I'm experimenting with using Z+X for lean by reaching under with my Left thumb. The thumb is so under utilised, being used pretty much solely for "Space to jump" in conventional game layout and really the last thing you'd need to so when leaning round a corner is jumping. I think this has the advantage in that the WASD finger position remains essentially unchanged for moving left and right and so on.

No good. Z is a virtually useless key due to how hard it is to reach with the thumb and/or the ring finger.

Though I'd really like a game that had an automatic lean, so if you just peek around a corner, an enemy perspective will see your torso hugged in behind the cover. Or some how a "sticky lean" so you just have to press the lean to hold your lean in that direction, then exit ADS mode if you need to get back in cover quick.

You could indeed make it sticky (moving while "lean" pressed leans you in that direction, any movement without "lean" pressed cancels leaning, but you can remain leaning without pressing anything). If you do this, I think X would be fine. The QE setup is slightly better for control, I think, at the cost of one more key.

One area I'd really like to look into is analogue hight adjustment. That is you can continuously adjust you eye level to just peek over the top of cover and get the perfect angle through small "loopholes" in walls.

This is an interesting direction of thought that hasn't really occurred to me. It ties into the whole business of how to simulate use of cover, movement, and how the human body does those things. Crouching, prone position, leaning and sprinting are just different expressions of this. I wonder if some kind of comprehensive system for this stuff which controls better than the current games is possible.

"Use quasimodes (= hold down) instead, and if there is a transition between modes (like pushing gun forwards to go into ADS) don't let that block any other actions (like firing) which would not logically be blocked by it, not even for an instant."

In CoD games (for example) to use your weapon's secondary attack (under-barrel grenade-launcher) you have to press a button... you might as well be selecting a whole new weapon it takes so long and to spite holding a rifle like an M16 you can't fire the rifle in self defence while reloading. Which goes back to what you are saying "don't let that block any other actions" it effectively is here. The design brief for the real-world M203 was entirely based on the idea the soldier could still shoot in self defence while reloading.

Yep. That reminds me: if a game goes for realism, it should also be possible to shoot one shot while reloading, if you still have a bullet left in the chamber.
For a game that is really, really bad at UI, see Crysis. Modes everywhere (at least three ones you have to keep track of at the same time), terrible melee. It even has this thing where switching a rifle from semi-auto to automatic or vice versa actually takes time (and blocks firing, of course) even though that would be a reflexive action for any person trained to use that weapon properly, and the character would do it in approximately the time it takes me to press the button on the keyboard.

 

[Alexxandere]

I like the G9x for FPS or RP games. Having the zoom button to the left and out of the way of the LMB is really easy for sniping.

 

[viranimus]

Honestly... I find the number of buttons beyond 3 irrelevant. What is infinitely more important to me is tracking, so I would take a 3 button laser mouse 100 times over an optical with 5-8 buttons.

But honestly... 9 times out of 10 I would just use Xpadder and map everything to a 360 gamepad anyway, making the whole point of having either type of mouse kinda moot.

 

[Infinatex]

Razer Naga. SO that's 17 in total

 

[GBlair88]

Standard M1 + M2 buttons with a mouse wheel and a small button behind the mouse wheel that did open a browser window until I disabled it. Two buttons on the left side, one being my Ventrilo PTT key/forward and the other being the backward key. Also a switch type control on the left side which lets me switch between windows and/or programs.

If you scroll the mouse wheel quickly it sort of disengages, so you can go up or down a page very quickly with a small flick.

Spoiler: This one

http://www.amazon.com/Logitech-Revolution-Cordless-Laser-Mouse/dp/B000HCT12O

 

[Savagezion]

I use M1, M2, M3, Mousewheel and M4 on the side. I use it for certain specific actions in multiplayer games and thats about all I use it for. It makes no difference to me really.

This. Anything more is a bit overkill since you have a keyboard at your other hand with "90" buttons on it.

 

[Denamic]

Just what's with all these people saying that more than 2 or 3 buttons 'get in the way'?
It's really, really not that hard to learn where the buttons of your mouse are.
It's like saying that more than an A and B button on a gamepad is too confusing.
Just doesn't make sense to me.

It's not that they "get in he way" just that they are slightly too awkward to use in a fast paced shooter and that will get you killed.

The problem with mounting knife-melee (CoD4 type) to M4 is that button can only be pressed with the thumb, but the thumb isn't over it, the thumb is clasping the mouse against the ring finger. So in a sudden confrontation you can't just twitch your middle finger to melee... you have to MOVE your thumb, then FEEL for the button, then press it at just the right moment.

You shouldn't have to clasp the mouse to move it.
It should be easy to move even if you're just resting your hand on it.
Besides, clasping gives you carpal tunnel syndrome.

And you really don't have to move your thumb and 'feel'.
Using a mouse over a long period of time will make you learn your mouse with muscle memory.
You'll push buttons without thinking, and you'll know exactly where they are and what they do.

That may seem insignificant but when you are running at each other in full sprint, milliseconds count. Moving your thumb to find M4 takes a moment, and in that moment you cannot move the mouse, your aim is locked.

As opposed to what?
Having melee attack bound to F?
So you have to move your finger from D and be unable to strafe right?
ALT, so you have to move your thumb from the space button and be unable to jump?
Right click, so you have to sacrifice whatever function is on RMB by default?
Those are both much bigger movements than sliding your thump up a few millimetres, too.

So what can you mount to M4 or M5 button that wouldn't do just as well on the keyboard?

Grenades, melee attacks, the grab button in Fallout/oblivion, VATS, commonly used spells/abilities in wow, moving your camera to your bases in SC2, weapon binds in TF2, etc.
There's a shitload of things you can use them for.

The thing with keyboards is that most of your fingers are already engaged with WASD, space and shift/ctrl.
Any other button presses means you have to sacrifice the ability to move in a certain direction.
Pressing Q, you can't move left.
E, F, R, G, C, V; can't move right.
Number buttons, basically sacrificing all movement for a moment.

Really these extra mouse buttons seems to be a problem as to use them you have to compromise so much control of the mouse it doesn't seem to be worth it. Mainly with M4/M5 buttons that can only be pressed by the thumb, you practically have to stop aiming with the mouse to use them.

Again, if you have to stop moving your mouse just to tilt your thumb up a few millimetres, you're doing it wrong.

Well, whatever.
It's all preference in the end.
My point is just that they're extremely useful once you get them hard-coded into your brain stem.
Especially when you use them in every-day environments, like when surfing.

 

[Crazie_Guy]

I use 3, but dont use the m1/2 buttons for any games. The two main buttons, scroll wheel, and middle button on the wheel are pretty much essential for games though. Extraneous buttons are best left to your keyboard hand.

 

[Treblaine]

That may seem insignificant but when you are running at each other in full sprint, milliseconds count. Moving your thumb to find M4 takes a moment, and in that moment you cannot move the mouse, your aim is locked.

As opposed to what?
Having melee attack bound to F?
So you have to move your finger from D and be unable to strafe right?
ALT, so you have to move your thumb from the space button and be unable to jump?
Right click, so you have to sacrifice whatever function is on RMB by default?
Those are both much bigger movements than sliding your thump up a few millimetres, too.

No, I bound Melee to M2. So just twitch my right ring finger to attack.

 

[Voodoomancer]

I Usually use a 5 button mouse (with M4 and M5 on each side), but it's started doubleclicking at random so I'm currently using another 5 button mouse (both M4 and M5 on the thumb side).

 

[Woodsey]

Why would you want to create a mod that requires as many mouse buttons as possible when you have 30+ keys on the keyboard?

I find it much easier to do stuff on the keyboard since my hand covers a number of keys.

Unless you're a weirdo, your mouse thumb and pinky aren't being put to proper use.

"Unless you're a weirdo"

You know, I think a few amputee patients might want to have a word with you. And my left hand still covers more keys and is more comfortably to use.

 

[Vault101]

I always found it funny that you could spend 100+ dollars on a gaming mouse, I have a cheap microsoft one with two buttons and a scroll wheel which works perfecly fine

 

[Cali0602]

Saitek's Cyborg R.A.T. 9... That's all the mouse you'll ever need. It's good to have as many options on your mouse hand as possible. After all, your keyboard hand can't do everything.