Poll: Prostitution

[Wyatt]

Let's stop for a moment and think about the implications of this. Let's say your adult daughter or son becomes a murderer. Is it not your duty as a parent to stop them? Even forcibly if need be? I think that you and I will agree that no matter the age of your child there are certain things that a parent must do even if their child is an adult.

Governance is not a replacement of parenthood, but it extends its rights from it. This is why many people look to the government in such a light - bailout, hand outs, freebies, etc. I will agree with you that this is a distortion of government where it tries to replace parenting.

But you also recognize that government is also necessary. There are times when welfare is necessary. When government must take children away from abusive parents. When government must put rapists and murderers in jail.

everything you just listed was example of a government either protecting people whome cant protect themselves, or of helping people who cant help themselves. both dutys of any real government.

now explane to me how making sex for money illegal is doing either of those things? they arent protecting the hooker OR the john from any unreasonable dangers. its certianly no more dangerious to work as a hooker as it is to work as say ..... a US Marine, something the GOVERNMENT not only sanctions but in many cases in the pass has FORCED people to do, and they certianly arent HELPING them, stoping her from working or him from relaxing. i dont know about you but ive never seen a parent hand a their son a weapon and order them to either go fight in a war or go to prison.

this whole idea is nonsence.

Well, for one - the United States is not a Democracy. It is a Representative Government with a Congress as well as an Executive Branch. This was created precisely because the Founding Fathers of the United States recognized the problem of mob rule. They both created a limited government, but also recognized the problem of uninformed people ruling by their passions.

The United States government was founded on balancing these principles of regulating the passions of people and limiting the power of a government that may impose too much on how people may freely choose to live. I make the analogy of parenting to be the same - balancing the mob rule of children with limiting the authority of the parent to allow children to be self-determined.

every person that leads the government in all 3 branches is elected one way or another. with the president and all of congress being elected by the people and the court being elected by congress (who of corse owe their authority to the people)

the very first line in the constitution reads we the PEOPLE, not we the GOVERNMENT. basic civics here i should have to point out the obvious like this.

A single person can kill whole populations of people in as much as a mob can choose to slaughter millions. People forget that Iran is not a dictatorship, but a Democracy. So who are we to say that Democracy is always right and that people can't vote for oppression (like many pro-gay people are saying out in California)?

I think that the US Constitution is one of the finest documents ever created by man. But it is just that - created by man. Ultimately I do believe in a King and a Crown to rule over me. But that is because I am a Christian, and my King is my Lord. But as things are on Earth, I believe that the US Constitution and following its principles is the best form of government there is on the planet.

cant argue a bit about God being King. i can only say that When God shows up in the flesh and claims his crown and his angels start taking over for the FBI and local police in law enforcment THEN ill support prostitution being illegal. but untill then no government by MAN is going to tell me whats moral and what isnt without a fight. and they certianly arent going to claim that what a person does in their bedroom is so harmful and dangerious that it requires that we lock them up for it and in the same breath order people too die for their country in wars of ...... shall we say confused situations? in other words id TRUST God to be a proper King, ive yet to meet the MAN id trust to lead a starving dog to a gut pile.

But even as it says in the US Constitution, that the government is created to "establish justice" and to "ensure domestic tranquility." The Founding Fathers themselves would have argued against Prostitution as something that is an unjust practice and exploitation of women, as well as a disruptive force in society.

those saame 'fouding fathers' though owning black people was a really keen idea. i have to call into question their ability to dictate whats moral and what isnt on those grounds alone.

However, I will agree that as a culture, we have grown to accept that selling oneself is a commonplace practice. And as such, many laws that were illegal then are no longer enforced now, such as the "crimes against nature" laws.

I will say that as a whole, our society is much less cohesive because families are no longer staying together. Legalizing prostitution is only one more step in that direction. But it is only one more nail in the coffin. It wasn't the first nail. Nor is it going to be the last.

so you assume that death is our eventual end not too far in the future? that our society is 'falling appart' and that we are not only NOT making strides forward in our societys but we are in fact getting worse?

listen, im a Christian, i believe in the end times i believe that its all gunna come to a head just like it says in the Bible, there will be the war too end all wars, the 4 horsemen will stalk the land and eventualy Jesus returns and then Judgment day.

but i cant agree that our society is falling appart. i look around the world (admitedly from my peak of civilization here in America) and dont see that its as bad as it HAS been in the past. there are no hords of mongols invading the west, there are no crusades, no plagues that are wiping out half the population of the planet in less than 10 years, we are fed better and living longer than even just 100 years ago. no sir i just dont see the reason for all the gloom and doom.

i KNOW history, i love history and im telling you flat out that more people have been killed in the name of government (in one form or another) control than have ever died of any other reasons(s) COMBINED. the TRUE danger in our world isnt letting people live how they choose, the TRUE danger is trying to control people, one person deciding too commit a murder can only hurt themselves and whome ever their victim is, but when governments decide THEY are the authority on morality and its their 'duty' to start dictating to people how too live THATS what causes the worst injurys to mankind as a whole.

give me a million hookers too one Stalin, or even one G W Bush.

 

[Rankao]

I dare anyone to come up with a reasonable argument against legalizing prostitution.

Because... it increases the idea that people are in fact objects because they too have a price?

But truthfully I support legalization of prostitution.

 

[LostInTheCosmos]

everything you just listed was example of a government either protecting people whome cant protect themselves, or of helping people who cant help themselves. both dutys of any real government.

now explane to me how making sex for money illegal is doing either of those things? they arent protecting the hooker OR the john from any unreasonable dangers. its certianly no more dangerious to work as a hooker as it is to work as say ..... a US Marine, something the GOVERNMENT not only sanctions but in many cases in the pass has FORCED people to do, and they certianly arent HELPING them, stoping her from working or him from relaxing. i dont know about you but ive never seen a parent hand a their son a weapon and order them to either go fight in a war or go to prison.

Look at the history of US Wars from the American Revolution, the American Civil War (or the War of Northern Aggression if you prefer), and the Second World War. You had mothers sending their sons to war.

And as sad as it is, there are times when a parent must tell their child to turn themselves in - such is the case of a parent who finds that their son is a pedophile.

You also cannot say that there isn't people who are trapped as Prostitutes against their will or made to consent under circumstances such as poverty. Unfortunately, the legalization of Prostitution can easily pave the way for legal exploitation of women from poor countries seeking work - such is the case in Canada where legalized Prostitution hinders their ability to prevent sex-slave trafficking from Asia and Eastern Europe.

the very first line in the constitution reads we the PEOPLE, not we the GOVERNMENT. basic civics here i should have to point out the obvious like this.

Yes, and basic civics will show that the governed consent to give the government power and authority to enact the duties it enumerates: insuring domestic tranquility, establish justice, provide for the common defense among these powers.

cant argue a bit about God being King. i can only say that When God shows up in the flesh and claims his crown and his angels start taking over for the FBI and local police in law enforcment THEN ill support prostitution being illegal.

Why not now? Why wait till the master comes home to start acting rightly than try to do your best here and now - to improve the imperfections in the system, and at the same time, helping those get away from Prostitution through your own actions and words?

those saame 'fouding fathers' though owning black people was a really keen idea. i have to call into question their ability to dictate whats moral and what isnt on those grounds alone.

Actually if you read their writings, many of them believed it was a moral failing on their part and left it to future generations to figure out how to solve it. Because they believed it was a problem that could not be solved. Like how you argue that Prostitution should be legalized because enforcing laws to ban it may cause greater evils, the Founding Fathers thought the same about illegalizing slavery.

but i cant agree that our society is falling appart. i look around the world (admitedly from my peak of civilization here in America) and dont see that its as bad as it HAS been in the past. there are no hords of mongols invading the west, there are no crusades, no plagues that are wiping out half the population of the planet in less than 10 years, we are fed better and living longer than even just 100 years ago. no sir i just dont see the reason for all the gloom and doom.

In the calm after the storms of World War II, we found millions of people slaughtered and baked in ovens. We say them being used as human experiments for the sake of "science". And we said, "Never again." But it has happened, again and again since - and we have done so willingly - even happily.

Over 125 million babies have been aborted throughout Asia in a single year simply because they are found to be defective: they are women. In the United States, nearly half of every family ends in divorce, many never get married and the rates of children being born out of wedlock are strikingly high when the greatest demographic of poverty is single mothers. 50 million abortions have been performed since its legalization in the 1970s. The number one cause of deatg for pregnant women is murder, usually by their unwed boyfriend. There is an increasing rate of suicide and self-mutiliation, especially by girls who are under constant pressure to sexualize themselves at earlier and earlier ages. Child pornography has become the most lucrative industry on the Internet - $35 Billion dollars a year. Europe and Japan are having below replacement levels of children - Japan even fears a 50% population depletion with catastrophic effects on their economy.

I could keep going.

Fact is, I believe that the legalization of prostitution is an inevitability. After all, how many underage girls are posting raunchy pictures of themselves on the Internet thinking it is the "normal thing to do?" How many of them think that 3 dates and a few well-timed compliments are "payment" enough before they go down on a guy? And just as it has been pointed out many times on this thread - what is the difference if you're paid if the camera is on or off?

The writing is on the wall, dear brother. You have to read it. Especially for the sake of your children.

 

[SuperUberBob]

Selling is legal. Fucking is legal. So why should selling fucking be illegal?

 

[Wyatt]

friggen preview button, i had a whole epic 47 page reply wrote out yesterday that i must have previewed instead of posted. clunky ass forum anyhow.

Look at the history of US Wars from the American Revolution, the American Civil War (or the War of Northern Aggression if you prefer), and the Second World War. You had mothers sending their sons to war.

your not seriously setting there telling me tha those mothers , yes even the WWII mothers we watched in the propiganda films WANTED to send their sons off to war, they just relized they didnt have any friggen choice in the matter and decided to salvage a little something out of the shit sandwitch.

And as sad as it is, there are times when a parent must tell their child to turn themselves in - such is the case of a parent who finds that their son is a pedophile.

how many parents you know would tell their kid to turn themselves in for being a hooker? lets not lose sight of the actual topic while we are slinging around the doom and gloom death of the world by prostitute senarios, k m8?

You also cannot say that there isn't people who are trapped as Prostitutes against their will or made to consent under circumstances such as poverty. Unfortunately, the legalization of Prostitution can easily pave the way for legal exploitation of women from poor countries seeking work - such is the case in Canada where legalized Prostitution hinders their ability to prevent sex-slave trafficking from Asia and Eastern Europe.

first off, in America there are laws on the books to stop people from being 'trapped against their will' in ANY situation except ............ when they are doing something illegal. mexicans in this country illegal are 'traped' in shitty jobs, sometimes actualy treated as slaves because they are here illegaly and the people who 'own' them know that if the mexican squawks to the law about their life, than sure, the bad guy gets sent to jail (maybe, but after all whos guna take the word of an illegal mexican over a fine upstanding American?) but so does the MEXICAN. same with hookers.

second we have these problems NOW while prostitution IS illegal. making it against the law hasent stoped those things, in fact id argue that its made them worse. sex slaves are held in that situation by a simple threat that says if you turn me in you go to jail right beside me. a Pimp doesnt need to beat a hooker too keep her in line, the LAW does it for him.

Yes, and basic civics will show that the governed consent to give the government power and authority to enact the duties it enumerates: insuring domestic tranquility, establish justice, provide for the common defense among these powers.

i expected you would use that phrase to make your point. its a pretty good phrase innit? i mean sure its vague as fuck and no one can actualy define what it MEANS but it sure can and HAS been used as a justification for all kinds of hair brained ideas that get tossed about 'for the good of the people'.

perhaps you can apply that vague mass of horseshit to the actual topic? how exactly does making hookers illegal insure domestic tranquility, establish justice, OR provide for the common defense?

Why not now? Why wait till the master comes home to start acting rightly than try to do your best here and now - to improve the imperfections in the system, and at the same time, helping those get away from Prostitution through your own actions and words?

because i trust God. His judgment is better than mine , especialy on moral issues. ive yet to meet ANY man that i can say that about. right up too and including any Pope you would care to name, or any OTHER person in history that you would list as a good moral authority.

i totaly agree 100% with you when you say we need to act as individual people to try and live a better life, where we are arguing is that YOU have no right too force your moral code on ME. and while im certian you as an individual should we ever be real life friends wouldnt dream of holding a gun to my head over a question of say ... divorce, but you seem to have no problem expecting the Police to do that to someone you have never even met because they dont want to live by YOUR moral code.

now let me say again, i agree with most of the things you say. we both have a moral code that is more or less the same, but im telling you that even despite this i would NOT allow you to decide for me what was moraly right. and we AGREE on most things. this isnt rocket science here brother. when you can tell me what leaders moral codes should be enforced and why THEIR judgment is better than MINE or YOURS for that matter about whats right and wrong then we can talk. but im flat out telling you that aside from God allmighty there isnt a man woman or child on the planet that can speak for all.

Actually if you read their writings, many of them believed it was a moral failing on their part and left it to future generations to figure out how to solve it. Because they believed it was a problem that could not be solved. Like how you argue that Prostitution should be legalized because enforcing laws to ban it may cause greater evils, the Founding Fathers thought the same about illegalizing slavery.

so then we agree that the 'founding fathers' isnt quite the moral compass you implyed it was before?

In the calm after the storms of World War II, we found millions of people slaughtered and baked in ovens. We say them being used as human experiments for the sake of "science". And we said, "Never again." But it has happened, again and again since - and we have done so willingly - even happily.

and its gunna continue to happen untill the second comming. whats your point?

Over 125 million babies have been aborted throughout Asia in a single year simply because they are found to be defective: they are women. In the United States, nearly half of every family ends in divorce, many never get married and the rates of children being born out of wedlock are strikingly high when the greatest demographic of poverty is single mothers. 50 million abortions have been performed since its legalization in the 1970s.

ok so your anti-abortion again i have to ask whats your point? society is gunna fall appart tommorw because of abortion? there wasnt any abortion in all of history untill the 1970s?

these issues arent anything we havent been dealing with since mankind formed its first city. we dont have any MORE problems today we just have DIFFERENT ones. and in reguards to abortion that one isnt even NEW.

The number one cause of deatg for pregnant women is murder, usually by their unwed boyfriend. There is an increasing rate of suicide and self-mutiliation, especially by girls who are under constant pressure to sexualize themselves at earlier and earlier ages. Child pornography has become the most lucrative industry on the Internet - $35 Billion dollars a year. Europe and Japan are having below replacement levels of children - Japan even fears a 50% population depletion with catastrophic effects on their economy.

i dont give a flying fuck about 'the poor children' thats up too their PARENTS to take care of. i have a daughter and i couldnt think of a WORSE 'parent' for her than the friggen government or 'society' , its MY job, its EVERY parents job to train up their children in the way they should go. THIS argument is about that very thing. God himself KNEW that 'society' wouldnt ever be perfect and that the only way for a child to be raised properly is by the actions of the PARENTS, not some government buero or the 'village'. it doesnt 'take a village' to raise a child it takes a good PARENT.

if a teen girl is dressing like a whore than its the PARENTAS falt, not the TV or the internet. if a child is a victim of someone they 'met online' than guess what? its the PARENTS falt for not unpluging the friggen computer. i say lock up the PARENTS right along side the pedo they are ATLEAST as guilty of the abuse of that child as the pedo was. and again id point out that these arent new problems, dont you recall how the world was going to end because kids in the 60s listened to the beatles? or Elvis shook his hips on Ed sulivan?

that son of a bitching Sky has been falling for thousands of years now, i wonder when its actualy gunna hit us.

I could keep going.

Fact is, I believe that the legalization of prostitution is an inevitability. After all, how many underage girls are posting raunchy pictures of themselves on the Internet thinking it is the "normal thing to do?" How many of them think that 3 dates and a few well-timed compliments are "payment" enough before they go down on a guy? And just as it has been pointed out many times on this thread - what is the difference if you're paid if the camera is on or off?

The writing is on the wall, dear brother. You have to read it. Especially for the sake of your children.

you need have no fear for my child, ILL be there for her, ILL help her, and ILL teach her , but you can bet your ass it wont be by demanding that the government or society passes laws to do it for me. id rather have her keep her freedom and suffer a few hard knocks than have her be forced into marching lock step with someone elses idea of what the proper 'moral' code is. if i wanted THAT i may as well turn her over too Osama Bin-Ladin right now so she can be fitted for her burka and the can start braiding the rope to hang her with when she looks at her husband the wrong way.

 

[LostInTheCosmos]

friggen preview button, i had a whole epic 47 page reply wrote out yesterday that i must have previewed instead of posted. clunky ass forum anyhow.

What I tend to do is write my response out in something like Notepad so even if the Internet goes down when I click "Post" and it doesn't make it to the board, I still have a copy of it locally.

your not seriously setting there telling me tha those mothers , yes even the WWII mothers we watched in the propiganda films WANTED to send their sons off to war, they just relized they didnt have any friggen choice in the matter and decided to salvage a little something out of the shit sandwitch.

You never asked me if mothers WANT to send their kids to war or tell them to go to jail. These are hard decisions for anyone - no one WANTS war. But if a mother sends a kid off to war, they DO put a gun in their hand - you don't want them go unarmed.

how many parents you know would tell their kid to turn themselves in for being a hooker? lets not lose sight of the actual topic while we are slinging around the doom and gloom death of the world by prostitute senarios, k m8?

I never said it is the "death of the world by prostitutes." I think it's something that adds another nail in the coffin. And as I pointed out, tons of teens and adults act like prostitutes anyway - 3 dates for a BJ, 6 for intercourse, etc. And pornography is prostitution with cameras on and no one goes to jail.

first off, in America there are laws on the books to stop people from being 'trapped against their will' in ANY situation except ............ when they are doing something illegal. mexicans in this country illegal are 'traped' in shitty jobs, sometimes actualy treated as slaves because they are here illegaly and the people who 'own' them know that if the mexican squawks to the law about their life, than sure, the bad guy gets sent to jail (maybe, but after all whos guna take the word of an illegal mexican over a fine upstanding American?) but so does the MEXICAN. same with hookers.

second we have these problems NOW while prostitution IS illegal. making it against the law hasent stoped those things, in fact id argue that its made them worse. sex slaves are held in that situation by a simple threat that says if you turn me in you go to jail right beside me. a Pimp doesnt need to beat a hooker too keep her in line, the LAW does it for him.

How many studies have you looked at that show the results of legalized prostitution and whether or not it actually decreases the incidences of sex slave trafficking? Is this just theory that people should "mind their own business?"

Here is something I think you should consider reading:
http://www.rapereliefshelter.bc.ca/issues/prostitution_legalizing.html

And I'll pull out some notable quotes for you. Because these do look like what I would call, "disrupting the public peace."

In the one year since lifting the ban on brothels in the Netherlands, NGOs report that there has been an increase of victims of trafficking or, at best, that the number of victims from other countries has remained the same (Bureau NRM, 2002: 75). Forty-three municipalities in the Netherlands want to follow a no-brothel policy, but the Minister of Justice has indicated that the complete banning of prostitution within any municipality could conflict with "the right to free choice of work" (Bureau NRM: 2002) as guaranteed in the federal Grondwet or Constitution.

In January, 2002, prostitution in Germany was fully established as a legitimate job after years of being legalized in so-called eros or tolerance zones. Promotion of prostitution, pimping and brothels are now legal in Germany. As early as 1993, after the first steps towards legalization had been taken, it was recognized (even by pro-prostitution advocates) that 75 per cent of the women in Germany's prostitution industry were foreigners from Uruguay, Argentina, Paraguay and other countries in South America (Altink, 1993: 33). After the fall of the Berlin wall, brothel owners reported that 9 out of every 10 women in the German sex industry were from eastern Europe (Altink, 1993: 43) and other former Soviet countries.

The sheer volume of foreign women who are in the prostitution industry in Germany - by some NGO estimates now up to 85 per cent - casts further doubt on the fact that these numbers of women could have entered Germany without facilitation. As in the Netherlands, NGOs report that most of the foreign women have been trafficked into the country since it is almost impossible for poor women to facilitate their own migration, underwrite the costs of travel and travel documents, and set themselves up in "business" without outside help.

The link between legalization of prostitution and trafficking in Australia was recognized in the U.S. State Department's 1999 Country Report on Human Rights Practices, released by the Bureau of Democracy, Human Rights and Labor. In the country report on Australia, it was noted that in the State of Victoria which legalized prostitution in the 1980s, "Trafficking in East Asian women for the sex trade is a growing problem" in Australia?lax laws - including legalized prostitution in parts of the country - make [anti-trafficking] enforcement difficult at the working level."

That is just a small section of information on that site.

I think that evidence alone should suffice that in countries and places that have legalized prostitution, that it does more public harm than good - especially in how it exploits the poor.

so then we agree that the 'founding fathers' isnt quite the moral compass you implyed it was before?

I'm not saying that the founding fathers are perfect. I'm just saying that they were very wise in how they instituted our country's laws based on Christian values. So together with empiracle evidence of increases of abuse of women, I would say that this makes a strong case of keeping Prostitution illegal.

ok so your anti-abortion again i have to ask whats your point? society is gunna fall appart tommorw because of abortion? there wasnt any abortion in all of history untill the 1970s?

I'm saying that when a civilization starts committing suicide, then it's basically over. We're already seeing the economic fallout of Western Civilization. It'll be even more shattering when our social services cannot support the growing elderly class because there are too few young people as workers to support the medical needs of the elderly.

Again, you are right in that these problems aren't new. But once we start killing off our own citizenry to feed our greed, we know that our time is up and a new civilization will rise to take its place.

Personally, I like our civilization. I believe it is the best hopes of humanity. It has its flaws, but if we work through these pitfalls, we stand to be even greater than we are now. But this will not happen so long as we promote values that destroy our families and hide our hands because we have to "mind our own business."

Every divorce, every affair, every shattered family IS my business. The effects of broken families on children are devastating. And we all have to pull together to get through this. It's bad enough when you have society saying that it's perfectly legal (and even GLAMOROUS) to sell your body on camera. I have enough problems raising my children. That's just another thing I don't need when the government should work FOR me, not AGAINST me.

dont you recall how the world was going to end because kids in the 60s listened to the beatles? or Elvis shook his hips on Ed sulivan?

Jeez man. That was the time our society took some of its worse hits. Alfred Kinsey in the 1950s completely rewrote all our sex offender laws to make it easy on the sex offenders. That was when our society started to turn on its side and the Sexual Revolution started taking root. The 1960s perfected the pill and we started seeing a larger practice of sex before marriage, and swingers into the 1970s. This was especially driven by an increasingly nihilistic attitude combined with the Cold War and the threat of Nuclear War. Divorce rate jumped from 10%-50% within the decade. In 1973, abortion was made legal.

There are a lot of things new that are on the scene. Never before in the history of the world were we nearly as powerful in our weaponry - from nuclear, biological, to even the prevalence of machine guns.

And what's wrong with saying "the sky is falling" if the goal is to get people to wake up, see the families around them in devastation and try to fix it - starting with their own? Constant reformation and self-reflection is a good thing.

you need have no fear for my child, ILL be there for her, ILL help her, and ILL teach her , but you can bet your ass it wont be by demanding that the government or society passes laws to do it for me. id rather have her keep her freedom and suffer a few hard knocks than have her be forced into marching lock step with someone elses idea of what the proper 'moral' code is. if i wanted THAT i may as well turn her over too Osama Bin-Ladin right now so she can be fitted for her burka and the can start braiding the rope to hang her with when she looks at her husband the wrong way.

For that, I'm glad for. You go brother.

I think that our debate really is just a difference between a libertarian outlook and a conservative one. But I think you forget that while I am a conservative, I'm a CHRISTIAN conservative. I think you and I would agree that there is a lot wrong with our society, but we both would agree that the Muslim extreme is the wrong way to go. I would argue against Sharia law as much as I would argue against Prostitution.

But here is the irony for you. The countries that have lost their CHRISTIAN identity are the ones that are slowly being transformed into a more Muslim culture. In Germany, UK and Canada, where Prostitution is legal, they also allow Muslims to practice Sharia law within their own communities - including honor killings. The local authorities are unable to prosecute these murders because the communites keep hush about it.

In fact, in the UK, there has been a huge spike in "hymen reconstructive surgeries" for Muslim women who have "fallen" and need to present the bloodied bed sheet on their wedding night.

The issue I have is that the more we as a culture lose our Christian heritage, the quickly we are going to be replaced by more radical cultures - both on the right and on the left. The Christian heritage is the most balanced of the two. And, because of sheer numbers and tenacity, I believe that radical Islam will triumph over radical Secularism. Simply because Muslims keep their families intact longer and breed more. The #1 baby name in the UK is "Mohammed."

 

[Wyatt]

ok just one quote , but no more *snicker*

What I tend to do is write my response out in something like Notepad so even if the Internet goes down when I click "Post" and it doesn't make it to the board, I still have a copy of it locally.

im forced to do the same thing. with this clunky ass forum i have to work my posts over on notepad first. trouble was when i hit preview instead of post i just closed the window without checking if i actualy made the post or not, then i closed the note pad too without saving it and went about my business. it was a day later before i noticed that i hadent posted and my reply was looooong gone by that point lol. its not the first time ive done it either.


anyhow rather than continue the cut/paste style of argument i decided to skip it this time. that style usual ends up with the argument as a whole being cut up into 20 minor points that become more importiant than the over all topic.

i read your whole post and i just dont agree that the end of the world is here, im also very unlikley to get worked up over any 'studys' you post. simply because i allways wonder what the agenda is of anyone who actualy conducts these studys. and its not just an argument im using against you in this specific case, i dont trust 'studys' that support MY argument either. depending on what data one chooses to look at the results of ANY study could be made to say pretty much anything you want it too. for me a study is just like those political poll we in America have been flooded with for the last year or better. and about as meaningful.

now your point about how other countrys are being overrun by islam. welllllll all i can say is America aint other countrys. can you really see US "the great satan" ever being taken over by islamic laws? they hate us BECAUSE we arent supportive of their nonsence. what they get away with in other nations doesnt mean much to what they get away with here. and to my mind the practice of Sharia law is no worse than the mormons and their kiddy diddlin. HOWEVER, freedom doesnt mean much if your not free. as long as they obey the laws they are free too practice any kind of a religion they choose too here. if they DO in fact kill women because of some barbaric law then they WILL be cought and they WILL be punished, not for religious reasons but because murder is agains the law, the same as the mormons cought kiddly diddlin are punished for THAT, or Catholic Priests are punished for THEIR kiddy diddlin when THEY are cought, the same as average Joe the Plumber is punished for HIS crimes. religion and morality have nothing to do with the law. wich is my total and entire point.

the founding fathers may have indeed established our system of law based on Christian principal but id argue with you just like i have argued more than one with D James Kennedy when i hear him on the radio that just because aspects of our legal system were founded on Christian laws that doesnt make our entire legal system Christian. example. thou shall not murder. thats certianly one of those 'christian' laws thats made its place in our legal system but isnt it much more honist to say that not commiting murder is a sound legal principal in ANY set of laws? there is no legal system in the world, in ANY nation or society that allows murder on the books. the only thing thats different is how we/they define murder. the christian ethic is that murder is wrong in all cases. Jesus says if your slaped on one cheek offer the other too whome ever struck you, seems more than clear to me whats hes saying is that you shouldnt strike back no matter WHAT the provication. ergo there is NEVER an excuse for taking someone elses life, but we eget around this 'christian principal' by adding all kinds of exceptions and exemptions up too and including allowing (or DEMANDING) our Government itself to murder people either via a war or via capitol punishment.

if we are honist about this we will admit that our laws arent any more CHRISTIAN than any other nations no matter WHAT D james kennedy says. the people who framed them were certianly Christian and they certianly had a huge influence from their faith when they established our system but it was BECAUSE of that faith and the history of Christian states runing their laws by dicta from Rome and the Pope for the past 1000 years or so, or by Kings controlling a local church using religion in place of the rule of LAW that they made a pointed effort too NOT make laws based on religion but rather on the goal of allowing freedom of choice, and establish a system to make LAWS not only not based on but reguardless of any ethical code, religion, or other influence, and based on a person vote for what they feel will benifit themselves best.


im a great believe that people will find their own social ballance, that man was designed to adapt too their enviroment (social especialy) and what you see as causes for alarm i see as just another shift in a long history of social shifts in our species. every generation has a fear that the next will crash and burn and humanity will end. but thats not happened yet. what they REALLY fear is that the next geneation doesnt accept THEIR values and refuse to be limited by them. in truth all the next generation is doing is setting up a new social dynamic that THEIR children will reject. i grew up hearing from my parents that old saw about 'these kids now days' , my PARENTS heard that from my grandparent and so on back, IM saying it about MY childrens generation. but Gods still in charge of the Universe and i take much heart from that fact. my kids or their kids or their kids grandkids wont fuck up so much that God cant fix it.

it allways makes me laugh out loud when a fellow Christian gets so worked up about the state of the world. mostly because our faith TELLS us that the world is gunna end in a shit storm, so when we see the signes of that shit storm why bother getting upset over it? im HAPPY that the 'end is near'. rather than raise my blood pressure about things i cant do a fucking thing about anyhow im certanly ready to kick it all over to God and let HIM fix it all. God isnt gunna Judge us for anyone elses Sins but our own. hes not gunna Judge us based on wether or not we were American or British or from Iraq or China, hes gunna Judge US, each and ever person on this planet since Adam wil stand in Judgment for our OWN actions. and i contend that since ive never visited a hooker, and i dont KNOW any Hookers than what a hooker does or doesnt do has no bearing on MY Judgment at all. at most ill be guilty of this very post where i have the choice of either supporting a foolish policy like making a LEGAL decision based on MY morals, or speaking out against imposing ANYONE morals on ANYONE else. in other words i can support a dictatorship of man or i can let God be in charge and decide for Himself how to fix this problem , if it is one.

as ive said before if God wants me to be sticking my nose into a hookers bedroom he will cause me to come into contact with whome ever he wants me to help. i can only conclude that since ive got a full plate helping others with MUCH bugger problems that im not gunna be held responcable for ALL the problems in the universe. and im content. and im especialy not going to ADD too my otherwise full plate by sticking my nose into something that isnt really any of my business. IM not gunna tell a hooker that she cant fuck for money any more than id allow HER to tell me i cant reach my kids about Jesus.

She can live her life and she will stand her own Judgment, ill live mine and stand my own. thats Gods plan for all of us. anything ELSE that we as MEN try and dream up and use as an excuse to impose OUR morality on ANYONE else isnt part of Gods plan (Judge not lest you BE Judged). and i want no part of it.

 

[MsDevin92]

*cowers from the scary walls of text*

Er...Just to throw my two cents in, you guys actually made it a very good way to make prostitution seem like something that would be better legalized. My only problem is, if it became legal, what would happen to people who were forced into it? Would their pimps get off scott-free, or...?

 

[Twilight_guy]

I am against prostitution on religious grounds. It's interesting that such a large number of people here think it should be legal.

 

[LostInTheCosmos]

*cowers from the scary walls of text*

Er...Just to throw my two cents in, you guys actually made it a very good way to make prostitution seem like something that would be better legalized. My only problem is, if it became legal, what would happen to people who were forced into it? Would their pimps get off scott-free, or...?

That's been the reason why I've said that it shouldn't be legal. In countries where Prostitution is legal, foreign girls from really poor countries are trafficked into the country for "work" and are unable to get their way out because the Government legitimizes such activities.

 

[LostInTheCosmos]

ok just one quote , but no more *snicker*

Ditto.

Thing is, if we discount studies and evidence presented before us, then it's just one person's belief against the other. And there can really be no intellectual intercourse at that point once we decide to ignore the evidence presented from the opposing side.

I've read lots of pro-Prostitution arguments and most of it is concentrated on protecting the Prostitute from harm. However, by making Prostitution legal, it doesn't remove the moral hazards, entrapment and abuses that happen in the sex industry - it shifts it - gives it a different facet. It only creates another legal hole that in turn could be argued for being legalized as well. It's a viable slippery slope argument.

And just for your info, Sharia law is slowly being pushed in the US. Here is a Texas Court ruling favoring Sharia law: (TEXAS!)
http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/019862.php

Here is the problem with your "kiddy-diddling" argument and it goes back to the "hands off" approach of "who are we to judge other people's cultures?" Fundamentalist Mormons marry post-pubescent teenagers - not children. Many cultures in the world do that. Why are we imposing our cultural values on their culture? If you look at the case of the Fundamentalist Mormon raid in Texas, many of the children there resisted the authorities and many of the wives insist that many of these young girls consented to being married. Who are we to get into another person's bedroom business between consenting individuals? Different countries and states have different ages of consent, but why are we imposing our values on another cultures'?

You may brush off this argument, but this is the line of reasoning that is being pushed on our culture today from many angles - from advertising, movies, underage raunchy celeb pictures, and all these news stories of hot female teachers having sex with their teenage students. They are all targeted to subverting our prejudices against underage sex.

The idea of "thou shalt not murder" is a natural one to all cultures. But what do you define as "murder" is stretched. For the Australian Aboriginals, it doesn't count as murder if you kill a woman. For the Aztecs, you can sacrifice tens of thousands of your own people to the gods. For us, you can abort millions of unborn babies and even submit them to human experimentation. It all depends on what you define as "murder" or not.

I argue that the further away we stray from our Christian roots in our morality and how it affects the interpretation of our moral system, the easier it will be to subvert the meaning of the law.

The idea of "religious freedom" was a Christian one - tired of the old religious wars of Europe. But taken to the extreme, it could mean the freedom of Fundamentalist Mormons, Hindus and Muslims to having child brides. It could mean allowing Sharia courts and Honor Killings.

I'm a Catholic and therefore not a Rapturist hoping for the End of the World so that Jesus will set things right. I'm seeing the Lions' Den and the Fall of the Rome Empire. That was God's way of fixing a corrupt, debauched empire drunk on its riches, its prostitutes, and economic slaves. I'm hoping that it won't come to that.

I don't propose we fix everyone's problems. Just the small circles we travel - and that includes the people who read our words here on the Internet. I don't believe it's just me and Jesus and how you deal with Jesus is your own problem. It's all of us together. We're all in this together.

Christianity has never been about "minding your own business". If it was, they would have never bothered to crucify Jesus, all his Apostles and thousands upon thousands of his disciples for "not judging others." They died precisely because they did what they ought to do - be Prophets against the evil of their own age.

Nobody nails people to wooden stakes for being nice and minding their own business.

 

[joystickjunki3]

It's their own bodies; if they choose to sell them to others for pleasure or whatever, then let them. But I understand where the legislation is coming from. However, being coerced is not necessarily the same as being forced, so I'm not sure if it could classified as rape.

 

[Theophenes]

One of you mentioned Vegas. It's NOT legal in Vegas or Reno, but is legal in the rest of the state of Nevada. Brothels are cleanly run, administered over by reliable health officials. Also, we really keep a tight eye on labor records, immigration records etc. (most of the coercive forms of prostitution involve human trafficking and sex slavery, just to let you know).

Now, I'm all for legalizing and regulating it, mainly because if you make it legal and clean it up, you won't have the exploitative and psychotic elements of it (for the most part).

 

[Wyatt]

Ditto.

thing is your 'evidence' is nothing of the sourt. evidence is a smoking gun, not a pile of data based on a whole sea of information that the people writing the study cherry pick to get the results they are hoping for.

like i said last time this happens on BOTH sides of any argument. i could (if i could be assed too) provide 'research studys' that SUPPORT my argument. ive no doubt of this, its something i learned a long long long time ago in my net history. no matter WHAT point is put forward there is some 'study' SOMEPLACE that will support the point.

i also dont agree that all intellectual intercourse is impossable at this point, YOU have a mind so do i , let use our OWN minds. a 'study' is a cop out for me, it means your letting someone else do your thinking for you. i allways distrust anyone who does this. look the problem in the face, apply your own thinking and make your points. i have gaind much respect for your opinion here though i dont agree with some of it because you ARENT quoting what other people say (via studys) but your using your OWN arguments. this doesnt really have much to do with our debate. and i accept that most people just arent built to think for themselves. this is more of a personel issue for me and that most people are content to find some 'study' that supports their point of view and start treating it as some kind of Holy writ. hell one could even say we do this with the bible. but the thing is ive read the bible and ive formed my OWN opinions about what it means, and they arent based on what someone else told me they ment but rather on my OWN reasoning ability. anyhow, i dont really care to play the link counter link game. you and me are talking here along with anyone else that cares to jump in im not interested in reading someone elses self serving study, its really outside the scope of this debate. we arent setting real world policy here, we are talking one human to another about the topic. im interested in what YOU think about the topic not some self serving study written by who knows whome, for who knows what agenda, using who knows what collection of data.

now the kiddy diddlin bit, im not sure that i DONT agree that it shouldnt be legal. *wates for cosmo to pick himself from the ground*

ok hear me out. it seems more than clear to me that God created people, God created both a man and a woman for the purpose of reproduction, God created our psyical bodys to only be able to reproduce at a certian time, notice i said time NOT age. puberty is that time. to be blunt and abit crude if your old enough too bleed your old enough to breed. i contend that the age of concent has very little to do with Gods idea of how the world should work and very much too do with how MAN thinks it should. now im not arguing for removing all the laws against having sex between adults and 'children'. our society is built NOW days that a young person really ISNT ready for the responcability of sex. id argue that even today there are people in their twentys and even older that arent ready for the responcability.

i would argue though that this isnt how God intended it to be. this came about because the parents made the laws over thousands of years. what parent is EVER ready to admit their kid is old enough to have sex? my daughter wont be ready to have sex till shes 50 and finaly is allowed to leave the house, and even then she will only be allowed to marry the man i hand pick for her (im not really this way , just making my point). we find sex between an 'adult' and a 'child' to be wrong, we mostly define 'child' as anyone under 18 and even then you can ask almost any parent and they will tell you that their 18 year old child isnt really an adult in their mind. well guess what, law makers are parents too and they feel the same way. hell im ALL for freedom of choice and I feel the same way about MY child. but this doesnt change the basic argument that im putting forward, there is NO reason for the age of concent and the sexual laws in this country BESIDES parents fears for their kids. God intended it to be puberty, MAN has changed this to a rather high simple age limit and it would be higher if most parents could get away with it, hell just look at other forms of restrictions on young people such as a drinking age of 21, the age limits where we make the 'move' from 'child' to 'adult' are getting higher for most things not lower (im talking long term like the last couple hunderd years) the more 'civilized' we become the more we want to protect our kids and the less we actualy DO.

the walls of 'security' we build in our nation over our 200 year history have been riped down with the internet and we simply haven adapted to the new reality yet. when i was a kid my experiance with sex was the odd National Geographic picture of some african boobies, and one treasure of treasures an old playboy. sex WAS a mystery for me, i was NOT ready to make decisions about it because i was so sheltered that i not only didnt have any reliable information i had almost NO information at ALL. now days sex is there, BLAM every place you look, but especialy on the net, and not just the odd boob shot but anything and everything any person ever did in a sexual context, all just one click away. and whats really troubling for some (but i see as a good thing) is there is no way to stop it, because the nature of the net is such that we are more and more NEEDING it just to live our day to day lives but along with it comes sex, you can NOT teach/allow your kid to use the net and at the same time protect them from being exposed to sex. this i see as a good thing, it now forces parents to do their job and teach kids about sex in ALL its forms. not just give the 'birds and the bees" speach and let them get their true education on their wedding night (or in the back seat of a car at the drive-in). with sex being all the time in your face on the net parents have no choice any more but to actualy give their kids real information and REAL education on the topic. instead of expecting 'society' to 'protect the children'. its forces the onus of being a parent BACK on the actual PARENT where it belongs.

in case you havent noticed yet i place alot of the blame for our world on lack of good parenting. if your child dresses like a slut its not 'societys' falt if shes molested, its the parents. if your a mother sheep and you send your lamb into a wolf den with an apple in her mouth and a side of mashed potatos do you blame the wolves for eating the kid (pun intended) or do you blame the mother?

instead of the obvious commone sence answer we will instead gather a large herd of other mother sheep, launch a legal attack against the wolves, blatt and bleat for years about how we need another law to make wolves illegal so that all these 'caring mothers' and 'innocent children' can in fact wander in any wolves den in the world with apples and potatoes , can in fact go into any wolf den and actualy sleap inside their oven because they are 'INNOCENT CHILDREN' and because of this the whole world has to change for the sake of a few usless mothers who expect society to do THEIR job for them and ignorant (through no falt of their own) kids. i say screw this noise, im not a sheep im a wolf and ill protect my OWN cub thank you very much. and whats more ill educate my cub to protect themselves because no matter what laws we have or how many cops we put on the street, the sutuations that she will be in danger in wont have a cop around handy (or even her father) and the 'law' will be meaningless when it comes to actualy protecting her. and this education WONT take the form of teaching her to call a cop or quote legal texts in the face of the wolf. she may not end up being part of our orwell society, the perfect little girl but she WILL be armed with REAL tools and education she needs to make smart decisions in the face of an uncaring world.

now your last point about Jesus and the Cross. i submit too you that you need to think about this a bit more. the fact is Jesus WAS killed, the fact is Jesus DID say judge not lest you BE Judged its a lession NOT to make empty stands against the 'world' but rather to devote yourself to God and IGNORE the world as much as you can. Jesus wasnt killed to teach us to rebel against Evil Jesus was killed to show us that even though evil CAN kill us we will win in the end but only through OUR relationship with God, salvation wont come because we stood up to evil salvation will only come because we submit to God. Jesus didnt die on the cross as an example too us of how to too improve society through empty actions (reminds me of the old Army saw that gos "the idea son isnt to die for your country , its too make the other poor son of a ***** die for his), Jesus died on the Cross for each and every individual person on the planet, our PERSONEL sins. fixing the 'world' will come later and WE wont be asked to do a thing about that.

i think again you and i are butting heads because your programed dogma is getting in the way of thinking for yourself. i read the bible and take away one over riding concept, and that is the concept that God knows that he can take over the world and turn it into heaven, and he didnt put us on this planet to help him do that, he doesnt NEED our help to do ANYTHING. everything we experiance is for OUR benifit (good or bad) he didnt die on the cross because he needed our help to change society. Do you think I cannot call on my Father, and he will at once put at my disposal more than twelve legions of angels? he died to teach us the lession that salvation comes only through HIM, and NOT in following the rules of the law (mans or Jewish).

the Bible is chocked full of examples of Good MEN getting smashed by the world (Jesus being by far the most importiant MAN and thus the most importiant lession) and the ONLY times that Good wins is when God takes a direct hand in matters. our WORKS mean less than nothing too God, Good works wont buy us one second of heaven. thats been said over and over again by Jesus. And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God. rich doesnt just mean money here, it means the wealth of the world in all its forms.

think about it.

 

[LostInTheCosmos]

i have gaind much respect for your opinion here though i dont agree with some of it because you ARENT quoting what other people say (via studys) but your using your OWN arguments.

Thank you, I really appreciate that. Then maybe we should say that conjecturing that legalizing or illegalizing Prostitution will cause "x effects" in society should be out of bounds in our discussion because that is really subject to data and interpretation. I think we both largely agree that Prostitution is not a good thing. So the crux of our argument is whether or not we as private citizens or even as Christians have a right to "impose" our morals on someone else. I believe we do.

I've seen that many people have been cowed into "minding their own business" so much that they wouldn't speak up, that they wouldn't do anything. The reason I tend to speak up is because I believe that the whole diatribe of "judge not lest ye be judged" has been warped into a mantra to make us into moral cowards - to fear minding other people's business - especially in the privacy of the bedroom.

As I was writing this response to you, I got a phone call from a young friend of mine at 1 in the morning. My friend is a young woman, a recent college graduate, for whom I've become a surrogate father. Her own real father raped her mother and left her pregnant. My young family has become a second family to her.

After she graduated last May, she moved in with her boyfriend. I had been advising her to wait to have sex until she is ready to marry and have kids. And, like most people, she vehemently disagreed with me saying things like, "How can you expect anyone to wait when they really love someone?" "It's not like I haven't had sex before." "We're being careful. I'm on the pill." Etc. And of course, it's really none of my business what she does in the bedroom.

Last night, she told me that she's pregnant and that she needs help.

It has always been my business what she does in the bedroom ever since we became friends. As a friend, I would tell her that the guy she is sleeping with is not worth her time. I would tell her to wait. I would tell her that she needs to be on her own two feet before she moves in with someone. As a friend, it was always my business to look out for her best interest and to advise her on what I thought was the best course of action. But was it my business to tell her what she can and cannot do with another consenting adult?

My wife and I will be packing clothes, diapers, supplies, even food in the next few months to help out. I'll be contacting unplanned pregnancy groups, looking at State funding/tax-payer money for medical and pre-natal care and child medical insurance. But is any of this my business what goes on in the bedroom?

It always was my business - because I'm looking out for her happiness and even moreso now, becuase I'm helping her with the needs of her child.

The issue of sexuality is not truly a private affair. Sex is the origin of the family. And the times and circumstances on how a family is created is paramount for the stability of our society. Ideally, every child would have two parents who love each other, work as a team together, and raise children as a family. For every family that is broken by divorce, for every child that is missing a mother or a father in their family is a circumstance that affects all of us. The biggest poverty demographic after all, is the single unwed mother. And the biggest sadness of it all is that such a situation can be avoided.

My friend's mother did the best job she could. She was a single mother and tried at different points to have a father-figure for the girl, but none of her relationships panned out. There is only so much her parenting could have done even in the best of circumstances. Could I blame the mother for being raped? Could I blame her for being impoverished and not paying enough attention to her daughter for need of money? I hate the "victim" mentality as much as you do and that people need to shoulder responsibility, but I also believe that society and culture has its own influence as well. It's not always the parents' fault, nor is it always society's. Both have a role to play.

I understand what you are saying in that Jesus died for us to teach us to rely on God's strength and to follow in his example. But what I am focusing on is how he got killed in the first place. He didn't put himself there, his enemies did. How did he make enemies if all he was doing was telling everyone to "mind their own business"?

Jesus wasn't minding his own business. He was telling the prostitute he defended to "sin no more." He told the woman at the well that she had seven husbands and that the man she was with now wasn't even her husband - which she acknowleged as a sin. Jesus said that divorce and remarriage is adultery. Jesus scourged people out of the temple, destroyed their businesses and ruined their livestock. He said he came to set daughter against mother, son against father, that he came not with peace but with a sword.

And if we take the example of the people who knew him, spoke to him and spoke to the followers who first knew him - THEY didn't mind their business either. And that's why they ended up in the Lion's Den, stoned to death, and crucified. Certainly they didn't mind their business much less what happened in the bedroom. If John the Baptist stayed away from Herod's bedroom, he would have kept his head.

And honestly, I think that you and I actually agree on the issue of pedophilia. Your line of argumentation is actually the same line of argumentation that is being used by pedophiles and people in NAMBLA. The only real barrier to pedophilia is the remnants of Christian influence on laws - but this too is slowly being eroded away by the media through movies and celebrity jailbait photos.

In all cultures, there has always been an element of pedophilic activity from the Greeks, to child brides in Africa and India, to Mohammed's six year old wife. Even the Old Testament has no law against pedophilia, so much so that a Second Century Rabbi has said that it is legitimate to marry and consummate with a 3 year old. The real history of our modern law system against pedophilia is only traceable to Roman Law which was adopted by the Catholic Church. Roman Law instituted an age of consent of 16 years of age for boys and 14 years for the girl. Roman Law also forbade incest. The adoption of Roman Law by the Catholic Church as the basis of Canon Law is the origin of modern marriage laws and where the Western World imposed an "age of consent."

As Western Civilization moves away from these roots, it once again reexamines why child-sex should be illegal. And my assertion is that you will soon find pedophiles declaring themselves as a "sexual minority" and begin to push for legitimacy much like how polygamists and gay and lesbian activists have been doing these last 2 decades.

And when you have jailbait pictures of Mylie Cyrus running around, teenage girls with cell phones, and young hot female teachers having sex with teenage boys as news - when will people start thinking that fighting it is abnormal? Especially, when sensible people like you recognize that it is only the "Puritan" west that has issues with underage sex.

 

[ace_of_something]

This is so far down the line no-one will read it but.

Why is prostitution illegal, two consenting adults having sex; When filming two consenting adults having sex is legal?

What is it about the camera that makes it okay?

I feel you could have a legal prostitution ring for a while, as long as you film everything but the john's face.

 

[Mr.Pandah]

Alright, well it seems that this topic is still on track, so I'll throw my two cents in.

Prohibition. Making alcoholic beverages illegal changed nothing. In fact, people drank MORE because of it. They repealed that Amendment with another and people still drink, but its regulated now. You can't deny the fact that its better now then it was when that Amendment was put into place banning alcohol.

Same thing goes for Prostitution. Regulate it, people are going to do it regardless, why not make a profit from it? You can't solve the problem by "banning" it, just look at the "Drug War" in America -_- Yeah, thats going well *rolls eyes*

We should regulate drugs as well. I don't do drugs, but I believe they are still going about it completely wrong. The government is making money off of the Drug Wars by taking bribes and what not from the countries transporting it here. You can't make a profit off of Prostitution through the government unless you of course, you regulate it. Not only will money come from it, but safety for everyone involved in it.

Its simple, this isn't about religion or "morals", thats what Separation of Church and State is for.

 

[Kage Me]

*points to the Netherlands*

If it works for us, why wouldn't it work for the US?

 

[Lustwane]

If porn is legal, then prostitution should be legal. Why is it okay to accept money for sex if there's a camera running, but if not then everyone involved goes to jail?

George Carlin said it best:

Another women's issue, prostitution. I do not understand why prostitution is illegal. Why should prostitution be illegal. Selling is legal. F'ing is legal. Why isn't selling f'ing legal? You know, why should it be illegal to sell something that's perfectly legal to give away. I can't follow the logic on that at all. Of all the things you can do to a person, giving someone an orgasm is hardly the worst thing in the world. In the army they give you a medal for spraying napalm on people. Civilian life, you go to jail for giving someone an orgasm. Maybe I'm not supposed to understand it.

 

[Zykon TheLich]

I may be talking