Poll: rape worse than murder?

[rasta111]

... Thank you...

I still don't think you understand the actions in question though. Everything happens for a reason. Rape is like murdering someone from the inside out while murder is just killing. One should not be made to fear death.

This is precisely how rapists make their victims feel. Most rapes happen behind closed doors by the people closest to a person. Most murders are spur of the moment defensive actions. If someone is threatening to kill you that probably means they don't actually want to they simply want you to be afraid enough to comply with their demands.

Of course there's always serial-killers who generally do actually commit both at the same time... Kind of puts the whole thing into perspective doesn't it?

Think about the cause before the effect and I imagine you'll gain a better understanding of the issues present.

 

[Lightknight]

Who said any of that?... *looks up*

I edited it for clarification.

 

[Sarge034]

I don't think either is "worse". They are both equally bad in my opinion and I can't choose. I say they are both in the same tier of shittyness and deserve equal punishment.

 

[McElroy]

How did it get so bad that the mere discussion of horrific things gets one uppity about the fact that some people are having this discussion?

OT: I have a fun analogy (the subject matter isn't fun though): Murder is Game Over and rape is Involuntary Hardmode. Some people can overcome this tougher living, but for others it's even harder or possibly just hard enough in the wrong ways to pretty much ruin the whole thing. However, as you can't insert more credits into the Grand Game of Life, I'd say murder is worse than rape.

Wow... This is all meaningless semantics. Have you ever been raped? How about murdered...? Yeah, personally I'm failing to notice a substantial difference in either case really from that point of view, both are horrific... Worse is not better and better is not worse. I still think my original point stands. Better to be stone cold dead. Do you understand what a rape victim goes through. Think of stockholm syndrome for comparison. A murder victim... Well to be frank the murderer is worse off from a psychological standpoint.

The disagreement comes from the fact that I (among others in this thread) think there being a rape victim living and dealing with anything at all is better than not. Y'know, the chance that this victim can be a part of that 70% or more who can eventually deal with it. Sure, I don't know any rape victims - good for me, right? - but even my rather meaningless sympathy is more than nothing.

If I killed a toddler to steal their lollipop, I would save them from the distress caused by a lost lollipop... and actually from all distress ever! Taking solace in the murderer being more effed up than the corpse in their wake isn't a mindset I would recommend.

 

[rasta111]

How did it get so bad that the mere discussion of horrific things gets one uppity about the fact that some people are having this discussion?

OT: I have a fun analogy (the subject matter isn't fun though): Murder is Game Over and rape is Involuntary Hardmode. Some people can overcome this tougher living, but for others it's even harder or possibly just hard enough in the wrong ways to pretty much ruin the whole thing. However, as you can't insert more credits into the Grand Game of Life, I'd say murder is worse than rape.

Wow... This is all meaningless semantics. Have you ever been raped? How about murdered...? Yeah, personally I'm failing to notice a substantial difference in either case really from that point of view, both are horrific... Worse is not better and better is not worse. I still think my original point stands. Better to be stone cold dead. Do you understand what a rape victim goes through. Think of stockholm syndrome for comparison. A murder victim... Well to be frank the murderer is worse off from a psychological standpoint.

The disagreement comes from the fact that I (among others in this thread) think there being a rape victim living and dealing with anything at all is better than not. Y'know, the chance that this victim can be a part of that 70% or more who can eventually deal with it. Sure, I don't know any rape victims - good for me, right? - but even my rather meaningless sympathy is more than nothing.

If I killed a toddler to steal their lollipop, I would save them from the distress caused by a lost lollipop... and actually from all distress ever! Taking solace in the murderer being more effed up than the corpse in their wake isn't a mindset I would recommend.

OK, you're not going to like this but I'm saying it anyway, you're all talk.

Your toddler analogy is laughable, how do you know the toddler wasn't better off, IT'S AN IMAGINARY TODDLER...

No one knows quite what death is like to make any kind of comparison to what many understand extremely personally and do not like presumptuous people making light of their suffering with superficial views and nothing but a pat on the back and the simple words 'get over it'.

I know you don't realise it but you're spreading fear of death.

 

[Lightknight]

I know you don't realise it but you're spreading fear of death.

A fear of death is primal. It's a biological differentiator that makes us more fit for survival than a species that is not afraid of death.

What I know now is that life is good. To me anyways. So the unknown of death is naught but a risk of loss.

What's more is that death is inevitable but life is fleeting. So would it not be more apt to protect the limited supply of life until a time where the infinite supply of death takes over?

A death of a person is not merely loss for the person, but of loved ones and dependents. Lives upturned by grief like ripples in a pond from a stone thrown to ruin the serenity of it.

Do you know or believe that death is somehow preferable to life? Or are you touting it's unknowability as being inherently better than something else? That would be somewhat oxymoronic. That because something is unknown the presumption is better when it could just as easily be neutral or worse. Such is the nature of the unknown, you know?

May I ask what kind of philosophical or religious background you're hailing from? If there is a label you mostly or entirely fall under, me knowing that label would go a long way in assisting me in understanding your frame of reference. If you're anti labels at all then I apologize if the question is offensive.

 

[chuckman1]

I'm not sure what you're still babbling about but my only point was semantics. Better is not worse. Worse can never be better. If you want to continue the horrific discussion though that's your business. Ciao.

If you can't be obliged to accept that words can have more than one definition and use then I simply cannot spend any more time in discussion with you. Some day, if you are ever a juror in a trial and some lawyer starts talking about the merits of the case you can bring your grievances against them instead.

Interesting you mentioned the raped Hitler, since in that Adam Sandler movie where he's the son of the devil, that's exactly what they do to Hitler, and everyone seemed to love it and thought it was a just punishment for him in hell.

I'm not sure if stuffing a pineapple up the ass qualifies but yeah, that did cross my mind.

Let's look at these two.
Justified murder, Hitler's right hand man shoots him in the back.
"Justified" rape, Hitler is raped by Soviet Soldiers. Not as satisfying or comfortable is it? I prefer my Hitler dead than raped and almost sympathetic.

Except, that wouldn't be considered murder. That would be considered killing someone to prevent further devastation to mankind.

I don't think the context of this discussion is regarding retributive murder or rape though. I think it's regarding the actions of a criminal against an innocent. The "in general" side of things to deal with a bigger picture. In general, which is worse?

Also, wrong, you should prefer your Hitler raped then dead.

The killer would be called a murderer for shooting the fuhrer and be executed there's no way to avoid it. Hell even killing Stalin seems justified to me, but it is still murder unless they have a gun pointed at you.

 

[McElroy]

OK, you're not going to like this but I'm saying it anyway, you're all talk.

Your toddler analogy is laughable, how do you know the toddler wasn't better off, IT'S AN IMAGINARY TODDLER...

No one knows quite what death is like to make any kind of comparison to what many understand extremely personally and do not like presumptuous people making light of their suffering with superficial views and nothing but a pat on the back and the simple words 'get over it'.

I know you don't realise it but you're spreading fear of death.

Hey, the toddler with the lollipop was supposed to be laughable. Probably not in the way you took it but still.

If having a shred of sympathy for rape victims or victims in general is making light of their situation then what would be the alternative? Would it be better that they didn't know what people might think of their situation? Attach an unknown element to that as well. I don't know. Maybe in some case, maybe not in another. But I have sympathy for people in horrific experiences - it's just there.

I get it, you're saying we shouldn't judge death but treat it as unknowable. However, I value life, and so instead of spreading fear of death I'd say I'm promoting survival.

 

[Adeptus Aspartem]

From the perspective of the victim? Rape, of course. You've to cope with that shit first. If you get killed, you're dead and you don't care.

From the perspective of everyone around you? The other way around. They feel sorry for you if you're raped, but can only help you by being there. But if you're murdered everyone around you loses you.

So it's a matter of perspective. Since the victim is the main "protagonist" in both cases i'd say rape, because as i said: if you're dead, you don't care anymore.

 

[sumanoskae]

You will survive rape. No matter how awful it is, there is still hope. Our culture is desensitized to the concept of violence, but (Here in the USA, at least) your average middle class citizen will never have to actually come face to face with the permanence of murder.

You can argue that the psychology of the rapist is of a higher class of depravity than that of the killer, but the cruelty of the act does not directly correlate with it's consequences.

Life can never be recovered or replaced. The damage caused by rape at least has the potential to be healed.

 

[sumanoskae]

I'm going to get crucified for this but it must be said:

Not only is murder far far worse than rape, rape is completely equivelant to torture and can be said to be just a different type of it.

I think the reason people think that rape is so bad is born of sexism, the notion that women that were raped are now "less" off a women or "defiled" is drilled into our heads from a young age causing us to view the act as ridiculously bad (it's still a pretty horrible thing to do) and make the victims think of themselves as lesser people.

You bring up an interesting point. I can't necessarily confirm it is fact, but it is a logical theory, worthy of examination. What I can agree with you on is that torture can be just as bad as rape, if it's performed in a destructive enough fashion.

 

[sumanoskae]

I think the reason people think that rape is so bad is born of sexism, the notion that women that were raped are now "less" off a women or "defiled" is drilled into our heads from a young age causing us to view the act as ridiculously bad (it's still a pretty horrible thing to do) and make the victims think of themselves as lesser people.

Your assumption that rape is automatically tied to women seems rather sexist itself. If that were the case we wouldn't see such a massive outcry whenever there's a report of a child having been raped. You don't see people going 'Meh, it wasn't a woman that got raped, it was just some 5-year old boy -- Who cares.'

The reason rape is considered so horrible is because sex is a primal instinct. It drives our perception, our behaviour and our interaction with other people. If that gets twisted and mangled, the ramifications are generally disastrous.

I think the point was that the cultural reaction to rape was first conceived in the context of sexism.

The argument seems to be:
"The idea that a woman's worth was somehow decreased by the act of rape is the basis for the shame and insecurity the victim is instilled with in the modern day."

I don't necessarily agree, but I don't think the assertion was sexist

 

[sumanoskae]

That may be the case in other countries, but in the United States more men are raped than women.

I would be interested in knowing where you came across that statistic.

 

[Varanfan9]

As an agnostic atheist... murder. I mean, that's it. You're dead. No more life experiences, no more fun, no more love. Your life is over. Rape at least has a chance for the victim to eventually recover, or at least partially do so, and they can still live rich fulfilling lives.
That said, they are both completely terrible crimes and I am appalled at how often rapists can get away with their crimes.

 

[Lightknight]

The killer would be called a murderer for shooting the fuhrer and be executed there's no way to avoid it. Hell even killing Stalin seems justified to me, but it is still murder unless they have a gun pointed at you.

It would be called assassination and/or treason. Treason only in Germany but assassination everywhere.

What's more is if they did it due to knowledge of the holocaust or some sort of time traveler knowledge then even if it were called murder back then we'd know that it was killing in defense of innocent lives.

That an area burns a person for being a witch does not make them guilty of witchcraft.

 

[Czann]

Murder, obviously.

Though murdering rapists should give you a medal.

 

[2012 Wont Happen]

Depends, you could justify murder in some way. Rape on the other hand...not so much if at all. I don't know why but rape just seems crueler to me, sure they're still alive but it's still a horrible horrible thing to do to a person.

People who say that you can justify murder don't understand what murder is. Murder isn't killing someone, murder is illegally killing someone without justification.

If you kill someone in the heat of passion it's not murder, it's manslaughter. If you kill someone in the defense of yourself or others it's not murder it's self defense. Murder can't be justified because to be murder it has to be unjustifiable, that's what makes it murder.

That would be true if we were talking purely from a legal standpoint. However if you look at the TC's example, killing someone out of revenge for killing a loved one, some people would actually find that justifiable. Is it still murder? Yes but some people can morally justify it.

That is a good example. I don't know if such a murder is justified, but it would be less immoral than rape by far.

 

[Seanfall]

Rape I think is equally horrible, but a different kind of pain. The mirror doesn't shatter. But it cracks, the lines still spread out. A girlfriend of mine had been raped. Even after several years it still hurt her to talk about it. Everyone handles it differently though. Some people break down retreat from society. Some become hyper vigilant.

It is a traumatic experience, but do you really think it is equivalent to "the mirror shattering"?

I'm not talking about whether or not it's actually terrible, it is. But do you think if given an option between a bullet to your head or a traumatic experience that is rape that you'd be indifferent between the two?

At least a rape victim gets to decide if they want to move forward from it.

I honestly don't know how to answer that. I've never had something like that happen to me, I have no frame of reference. I will say..that I would rather be alive. Only the living can heal.

 

[ZeroFarks]

There are numerous ways in which murder can be justified, both morally and legally.

Rape? Zero.

Or let's look at it from a gamer perspective: How comfortable are you playing games where you murder people? How comfortable would you be playing a game where you raped people?

Yeah, pretty obvious.

 

[Panthera]

Murder, it's disturbing to say otherwise. When you claim that murder is worse than rape, you're basically telling every rape victim in the world they'd be better off dead.