Poll: Role Playing With Moral Choice

[AwkwardTurtle]

Well because I'm new here and I love hearing the imaginary voice that says everything that I type out, I have a question for Escapist users~

Did you actually role play and either think about what you personally would do or what the type of person you thought your Shepard/Hawke would do in the situations presented in Mass Effect 2 and Dragon Age 2?

I really like BioWare games because they are able to present me with situations in which a choice must be made, and I, the player, am able to consider the possible consequences of the action and then decide what to do. Of course the events of the game has no real life consequences on myself, but I can't help but take these decisions seriously so I find them extremely enjoyable to think about.

I personally took Mass Effect 2 way too seriously as it was my first foray into the wonderful story that BioWare is well known for making. My first time through the game ended somewhat neutral, but leaning slight towards the Paragon side of things. I ended up having a couple teammates who weren't loyal to me since I didn't have enough Paragon/Renegade to choose the option that resolved issues when two people had fights. I wondered how I could have play differently so that I could keep everyone happy and loyal. So I did a quick search and found out that the answer was really quite simple.

Just pick Paragon or Renegade and stick with it the entire game so you completely fill the bar.

This kind of ruined the whole role playing aspect of the game for me, since I started to question the point of being part Renegade and part Paragon, when the game specifically rewards players who stick with one type of response the whole way through.

*Disclaimer, This statement is pure opinion please try not to get offended by it*
I came to the conclusion that basically despite the game's boasted freedom of choice in the end, I feel like the designers wanted to just have a game where Shepard was just automatically completely Paragon but was forced to make a Renegade option to keep with the whole freedom of moral choice thing. In fact it seems being Renegade was discouraged in the form of Shepard's facial scars getting worse.

Now comes my experience with Dragon Age 2. The thing that really broke any chance of me taking the choices in conversation with other characters seriously were the party member bonuses based on whether you were a 'friend' or a 'rival'. All I ended up doing was looking at their skill window, seeing which bonus I would inevitably want, and just kept picking the option that would push their like/dislike of me in that general direction.

This once again seems like a reward system for being completely one sided. The thing is, I find completely one sided characters to be extremely boring. I like the idea of freedom of choice because it implies the construction of a complex character, but it just seems like with the whole 'this option is good' and 'this is one is bad' system coupled together with the 'here's a reward for only choosing the same exact option throughout the game' system defeats this idea.

What if these mages I meet are complete pricks that have been killing people, but the guards chasing after them just happen to be bigger pricks that have been killing people in the name of revenge cause the mages called them a twat? Then you're given the option of saving the mages as 'good' and helping the guards as 'bad'. By what standards are 'good' and 'bad' being determined? Is there no gray area to be found somewhere in between these two extremes? Can't I just kill everybody for being pricks?

Lastly I just want to say although I find problems in the Mass Effect 2/Dragon Age 2 system of approaching moral choice, I liked Dragon Age: Origins' approach by simply giving you a variety of different choices to make. The worst in game consequence aside from the direct consequences of the choice itself was whether your party members liked you or not, which never totally detracted me from doing what I felt like doing.

P.S Since I haven't played many other games with a moral choice system I have only discussed BioWare's Mass Effect 2 and Dragon Age 2 since they are the most recent ones (although still a bit old) to come out. Feel free to bring up or discuss any other games that had a moral choice system whether it was good or bad.

 

[Clive Howlitzer]

I usually take the choice that most suits the character I am playing for that game, even if it results in losing out on rewards. I also have a tendency to never reload saves if things don't turn out how I planned.
I will admit that trying to be the bad guy in RPGs usually just means you get less quests, less loot, and less storyline. It kinda sucks. I had that issue a couple times with my Shepard since he was basically a good guy but also kind of brutal and hard in his decisions. So I had a mix of Renegade and Paragon, which prevented me from earning loyalty from one member.
I also failed to earn Zaeed's loyalty because I took the choice that made sense for my Shepard, despite knowing it'd fail to earn loyalty.
A great game that doesn't fuck you over for choosing to play differently is Planescape: Torment.

 

[werty10089]

All moral sliders in games should be removed and either replaced with a reputation system with several factions, or just not be there at all. Making choices is unrewarding if you end up just picking between two options. They might as well just notify you at the beginning of the game, and ask you which side you want to be, so you don't have to waste time clicking one of two buttons for the entire game. I highly value a game that makes me stop and think every once and a while. The decisions presented should never be clear black-and-white; help-your-grandmother-cross-the-road or stay-inside-and-make-torture-porn-with-dad kind of choices, but instead offer a unique social or political situation that can not be gauged by a slider.

 

[MordinSolus]

I always thought about what would most likely happen before I said anything in Mass Effect and Dragon Age, because I was afraid of being mauled by high level dudes.

 

[RatRace123]

It depends on the game and what sort of playthrough I'm going through at the moment. But usually in RPGs I role play rather than act like myself. I usually pick a few of the options and get a sense for what type of character I'm making, and then I just let that characters personality and motives come to me during my playthrough.
As an example for my Mass Effect 2 playthough I went as a neutral, with a bit more of a paragon leaning. I tend to see reactions to my moral choices as just reactions to the choices, if I can't persuade someone or if I can't lock down a character's complete loyalty then, oh well, that's how it goes.

I do try to manipulate events in my favor so I can do those things, but if it doesn't happen I just consider it another effect of my character's choices.

 

[Luke Bean]

I completely agree; I made a thread a lot like this a little while back. I think incorporating the ability to undergo character development over time without the game penalizing you for it would take games a lot further along the road to being art.

I sort of liked the Origins solution to it too, but I think that it has flaws of its own-- the good thing about morality bars is that they let the game recognize when you're behaving consistently as a character, which Origins couldn't really do. It might react to you siding against the mages in any single situation, but if you consistently sided against mages, it wouldn't really notice that you had made bias against mages a character trait.

Maybe a hybrid system would help: instead of having one Good-Bad morality meter, have tons of smaller, hidden meters. So, for example, being Renegade in Mass Effect consists of several different behaviors: rudeness, xenophobia, violence, and disrespect for the law, which aren't necessarily connected to each other. You could have a game measure them separately, and notice if you're playing as an outwardly polite, polished person who's willing to do brutal things when the going gets tough. The more fine-toothed you make the system, the more complex it is to implement, but the more the game is able to recognize your character.

 

[neonsword13-ops]

I just read everything... I feel complete inside. Go Team!

Anyway, I just play games, I don't play for morality systems. If I play Mass Effect or Dragon Age, I will aim for paragon or nice guy. Always have, Always will. (I hate being the bad guy.) I find Mass Effect's Morality system to be a bit broken. You have a good choice and a bad choice. It even highlights the choices in the corresponding color. On the other hand, Dragon Age: Origin's system was MUCH better because I actually got to choose what choice I wanted without being told directly that "THIS IS OBVIOUSLY THE GOOD CHOICE". I went through the game how I liked, not by what the game picked for Good and Bad choices.

Spoiler: *NOT SURE IF SPOILER OR NOT*

So when I met the possesed child who was being controlled by the spirit, I chose to do the exorcism on him and send Morrigan inside to purge him of the demon. The mother agreed with my choice and she sacrificed herself to save her child. When I was done with the purging, I went back to camp and Alistair hated me for the rest of the game because I used "Blood Magic" to purify the boy. So the choice had some good and bad morals to it.

So I like how games don't tell you what is good and bad, and maybe both. All actions have consequences, as Heavy Rain taught me.

 

[DeadlyYellow]

As they stand Moral Choice systems can go bite the big one. I find it hard that games adopt an arbitrary and annoying Universal Perspective. It always boils down to Lawful Good against Chaotic Evil, rather than incorporate the ambiguity that so permeates choice of action.

Fallout New Vegas had a small step in the right direction with their faction system: Crimes and offenses against one particular faction would only raise hostility from them. Of course they still kept the Universal Perspective idiocy (Karma,) but its role was downplayed from the previous installment.

I also find that altering the physical representation of the character based on a moral system to be incredibly stupid. Maybe I don't want to be a platinum blond that glows in the dark and shits fairy dust just because I gave a kid an apple or killed a bandit, Peter.

 

[Ryenji]

I definitely make the choices in Mass Effect and Dragon Age particularly as my character would. I find it really interesting how many different justifications i come up with for choosing the same options on different characters. I also don't worry much about "filling the meter" either way.

It also annoys me to no end when people complain about them lacking rpg elements. There's more to rpg than stats and levels, like ya'know playing a role, which I think those games do better than any I've played.

 

[Kopikatsu]

I usually take the choice that most suits the character I am playing for that game, even if it results in losing out on rewards. I also have a tendency to never reload saves if things don't turn out how I planned.
I will admit that trying to be the bad guy in RPGs usually just means you get less quests, less loot, and less storyline. It kinda sucks. I had that issue a couple times with my Shepard since he was basically a good guy but also kind of brutal and hard in his decisions. So I had a mix of Renegade and Paragon, which prevented me from earning loyalty from one member.
I also failed to earn Zaeed's loyalty because I took the choice that made sense for my Shepard, despite knowing it'd fail to earn loyalty.
A great game that doesn't fuck you over for choosing to play differently is Planescape: Torment.

Yeah, I try this as well. It came out weird in Deus Ex: HR, though. I kept imagining Jensen as a hardened badass, but he kept getting all touchy-feely on me during the persuasion segments. It sounded like he was on the verge of tears at points...in his extremely deep, gruff voice. So much confusion.

 

[Something Amyss]

The thing that really chafes me about moral choice is you never really progress. In Mass Effect, it may unlock a few more dialogue options, but the basic dialogue rarely changes at all. There are fairly token changes, it seems, but nothing of consequences. That's because an actual branching script is more work, possibly unfeasible with deadlines and console considerations and whatnot.

It gets worse the further down the ladder you go.

The significant choices we are given are generally limited in terms of impact.

 

[AwkwardTurtle]

I just read everything... I feel complete inside. Go Team!

Anyway, I just play games, I don't play for morality systems. If I play Mass Effect or Dragon Age, I will aim for paragon or nice guy. Always have, Always will. (I hate being the bad guy.) I find Mass Effect's Morality system to be a bit broken. You have a good choice and a bad choice. It even highlights the choices in the corresponding color. On the other hand, Dragon Age: Origin's system was MUCH better because I actually got to choose what choice I wanted without being told directly that "THIS IS OBVIOUSLY THE GOOD CHOICE". I went through the game how I liked, not by what the game picked for Good and Bad choices.

Spoiler: *NOT SURE IF SPOILER OR NOT*

So when I met the possesed child who was being controlled by the spirit, I chose to do the exorcism on him and send Morrigan inside to purge him of the demon. The mother agreed with my choice and she sacrificed herself to save her child. When I was done with the purging, I went back to camp and Alistair hated me for the rest of the game because I used "Blood Magic" to purify the boy. So the choice had some good and bad morals to it.

So I like how games don't tell you what is good and bad, and maybe both. All actions have consequences, as Heavy Rain taught me.

It's just when I decide that I'm going to go through the game just choosing one option, the moral choice system loses all meaning. I played through Mass Effect 2 with absolutely no feeling, consistently clicking the upper paragon option over and over again with few exceptions to gain loyalty. I mean I suppose it does keep a consistent storyline, but then it no longer feels like this character is a realistic portrayal of what my own values.

 

[AwkwardTurtle]

The thing that really chafes me about moral choice is you never really progress. In Mass Effect, it may unlock a few more dialogue options, but the basic dialogue rarely changes at all. There are fairly token changes, it seems, but nothing of consequences. That's because an actual branching script is more work, possibly unfeasible with deadlines and console considerations and whatnot.

It gets worse the further down the ladder you go.

The significant choices we are given are generally limited in terms of impact.

This is very true, because I mean in the end (I assume o-o haven't gotten around to playing Renegade cause he just seems pointlessly violent) a Renegade Shepard still saves the...universe right? He still saving something or other at the end of the day. If he truly was Renegade it'd be nice to have the insane option of using the resources provided by the Illusive Man and going batshit crazy on the universe and crown yourself king.