Poll: Rushing and you

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LordWalter

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Catalyst6 said:
I'm curious about everyone's thought on the subject, so I'm going to copy-paste something I wrote for somewhere else. I know most of you play RTSes, but bear with me in case some don't.

I hate rushing. It's true.

For those of you who don't play Real Time Strategy (RTS) games, a "rush" is when you dump every resource into making a group of your most basic offensive unit and "rush" it into the opponent's base. The idea is to get the units in before he has a chance to build something to repel them. This applies in most RTSes, but Starcraft made it famous with the Zerg rush, since the Zerg have quick-building units called zerglings that are basically paper with claws. The lings could be run into the enemy base and cause havoc if they weren't repelled. Nowadays I think that Protoss is more infamous for it with the Zealot rush.

Before someone starts calling "noob" on me, yes, I know that I suck at Starcraft. I am simply horrible. Yes, I know that it's relatively easy to repel a rush if you work quickly and skillfully. That's not what I'm talking about.

I've always viewed RTSes as complex thought games in disguise, or as I like to call it, "Exploding Chess". A proper player needs to have an extraordinary sense of awareness and must be able to use everything at his disposal to defeat his enemy. It's really an elegant game, if you look past the gore.

This elegance is what drives me mad about rushing. It's such a barbaric tactic, one that leaves no room for alteration if the plan goes wrong. A proper player would never put every chip into a single hand unless he was positive that he would win, something that a rusher never knows. In short, it's a stupid tactic.

However, that's not the biggest problem. I view it as if a chess player were to simply attack with every single non-pawn he had, regardless of the consequences, in the hope that he might win. Yes, it might occasionally work, but it usually won't and you're a complete dick for even trying. The name of the game is strategy, you're supposed to make a clever, longer-term plan to trick your opponent into letting you win, not simply taking everything you have and throwing it at them. In fact, that is the reason why I like Starcraft: unlike every other RTS, where most of the battles are simply building up the most offensive units and throwing them at each other, SC requires a lot of thought and manipulation. It's the smart man's RTS.

And yet, these rushers defile it, and it drives me mad. I don't care if it's a "legitimate tactic", or if it's "avoidable", it's still utter crap. For all you "normal gamers" who stick to the MW2-alikes, think of rushers as the guy who sprints around knifing everyone. Yes, it works and you could stop him, but he's still a dick for trying.

It's funny. I actually enjoy losing, if I fall victim to a clever plan. For example, I was playing in the beta oh so long ago against a Protoss player. Of course, I was worse at SC then than I am now, an amazing feat of failure, and didn"t keep a unit to watch my base entrance. The player was able to sneak a Gateway (Protoss unit-producing building) into the front of my base and started popping out Zealots, completely unknown to me. By the time I had blocked off my ramp, it was already too late. I got cocky and got screwed. I applauded the man on this cleverness, said "gg", then surrendered. (Note: This wasn't a rush tactic, he had a base building back home).

This is, of course, different than the guy who simply built three gateways and popped out a ton of zealots, destroyed one of my supply depots blocking the ramp (I play Terran, obviously) and overwhelmed my Marines that I had made since I had sunk money into building a factory instead of a thousand marines. I just told that guy to learn how to play a real game and quit.

In short, rushers, screw you.
I understand what you mean, in that rushing is an example of failed potential in a game, but frankly they're very easy to survive. Anyone outside of Bronze league should understand enough about the mechanics to pull off (in Terran's case) A wall off or skillful use of bunkers. Rushes "keep you honest" in that you can't just sprint up the tech tree. You need to be cautious and scout out to see what's coming rather than going right for a factory (etc).

I play in Diamond league, and by and large "Rushes" are just "Openings". A good example is Toss vs Zerg, in which Toss opens with some 2gate Zealot aggression to force a Roach build onto Zerg, then transitions to Colossi/Stalkers.

The effectiveness of rushing is largely due to many new RTS players lack of experience (SC2 is certainly one of those "magnet franchises" that pulls both Pro and N00b into its community by virtue of sheer size and ubiquity). Give it a couple months and this thing will slow down, until then, practice and optimize your early game to survive against rush tactics, and you'll be in a good position for victory.

See you on Bnet =]
 

Eldarion

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Sep 30, 2009
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In a game where teching up even seconds before an opponent can give you a game winning advantage, rushing exists to try to deny your enemy resources/buildings/tech time. If there was no chance of early aggression, nothing stops you from just climbing up the tech tree and then, whats the point? A fight in an RTS is a deathmatch in tier 0, then tier 1, then tier 2, ect.

If you die to a rush, your opponent used his units more skillfully than you could counter. You lose, good game.
 

Arkhangelsk

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LordWalter said:
You're in Diamond League? Impressive, dude. I'm still stuck in Bronze, and I'm not going up much. I lack the tactical thinking to use every troop to their fullest, and my reflexes are still very slow.
 

Last Bullet

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Apr 28, 2010
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Catalyst6 said:
And yet, these rushers defile it, and it drives me mad. I don't care if it's a "legitimate tactic", or if it's "avoidable", it's still utter crap. For all you "normal gamers" who stick to the MW2-alikes, think of rushers as the guy who sprints around knifing everyone. Yes, it works and you could stop him, but he's still a dick for trying.
This one confuses me. The guy has a knife. You have a gun. I've played the game, and unless the guy gets me from behind knifing doesn't work much. And... if he managed to sneak up on me like that, he could probably just blow my virtual brains out. Maybe I haven't play it enough, not sure.

Rushing can get a bit annoying, but I personally would say the "pros" (if you can call them that) outweigh the cons. If you manage to repel the rush, things could get interesting very quickly. I still find it weird protoss can rush so effectively, though.
 

SL33TBL1ND

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Nov 9, 2008
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I think you're overreacting and are intolerant. Rushes can be part of a much larger scheme. I think you'll find that the people with the APM and skills to rush well also have numerous back up plans if the rush fails.
 

LordWalter

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Arkhangelsk said:
LordWalter said:
You're in Diamond League? Impressive, dude. I'm still stuck in Bronze, and I'm not going up much. I lack the tactical thinking to use every troop to their fullest, and my reflexes are still very slow.
Sir Yes Sir, check it out, about a week ago I was first in my Division (I'm now 8th because I'm multitasking with another game and Brutal campaign mode =p ) :
http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs307.snc4/40664_424188932043_597107043_4693811_1650950_n.jpg

To be fair, I had some great practice with the Beta, and I've played SC1 since I was but a small lad. Actually, SC1 was probably my introduction to RTS and has since kicked off my massive love affair with it (and PC gaming, generally. [Not that I'm in anyway knocking consoles, which I also love])

The Bnet ID is waltZOMBIESLAYER@AIM.com if you're ever up for a game =D hehe.
 

MikailCaboose

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Jun 16, 2009
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From the games I play (Sins of a Solar Empire mainly), it's not really possible to do that. With the distances separating each side's home planet (and the fact that you're never quite sure where the phase-lanes will lead all the time), it would be nearly impossible to rush with a bunch of the most basic frigates. Especially since the enemy will almost definitely have their free Capital ship up and running long before then. Plus, the pirates and neutral enemies would clean you out before then anyways. It's quite simply impossible.
 

Flying-Emu

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Oct 30, 2008
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The fatal flaw in your argument is assuming that Chess is about deep, intelligent strategies you use to defeat your foe.

This is false.

Chess is about defeating the enemy any way that is possible. If you can win with only pawns, why not do it? RTS's are the same way. They're about defeating your enemy any way you can find. Besides, rushing is an ineffective tactics; you're better off using that 'rush' to scout and harass supply lines.

As for your DEFINITION of rush...

Isn't floating barracks to the front of your base and then spamming marines a STRATEGY? It's certainly not something I would think of. Sure, it may be a cheese tactic, but if you were so obsessed with deep, thoughtful strategy, you'd have some overly complex way to beat it.

War strategies, even in REAL war, tend to be rather simple. I mean, what was D-Day but a massive marine rush? The pincer maneuver in real war is used in RTS', and it's not particularly complex. Drawing your enemy out and then striking at their base? Done in real war too.

You assume too much. The game isn't about intelligence, it's about who is the better commander. If an intelligent strategy is required, the good commander will use an intelligent strategy. If an idiotic, some might say foolhardy strategy is required, the good commander will do that.

Hell, my favorite thing to do is build a bunch of defensive structures after I have a large army, build a nydus network, and then wait until they attack ME so I can open a Nydus worm and hopefully wipe them off the map before they wipe away my hidden hatcheries.
 

Arkhangelsk

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LordWalter said:
Arkhangelsk said:
LordWalter said:
You're in Diamond League? Impressive, dude. I'm still stuck in Bronze, and I'm not going up much. I lack the tactical thinking to use every troop to their fullest, and my reflexes are still very slow.
Sir Yes Sir, check it out, about a week ago I was first in my Division (I'm now 8th because I'm multitasking with another game and Brutal campaign mode =p ) :
http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs307.snc4/40664_424188932043_597107043_4693811_1650950_n.jpg

To be fair, I had some great practice with the Beta, and I've played SC1 since I was but a small lad. Actually, SC1 was probably my introduction to RTS and has since kicked off my massive love affair with it (and PC gaming, generally. [Not that I'm in anyway knocking consoles, which I also love])

The Bnet ID is waltZOMBIESLAYER@AIM.com if you're ever up for a game =D hehe.
A match against you? I'd be slaughtered. But sure, if only for the laughs. I had only played a little of the beta, and I'm just now getting the hang of it. I'm Bronze rank 42 in my division. It's getting better as I'm learning how to use the Protoss. I find them easier to use than Terran.

Feel free to add me if you like. My name and character code is Dalakan 316 (e-mail's a bit too personal)
 

Meemaimoh

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Aug 20, 2009
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I'd never hold anyone's tendency to rush against them. I don't see it as any less valid a tactic than any other; if the game's mechanics allow it, then it's meant to be allowed. But then, I also believe in the validity of sniping and using RPGs/bazookas/whatever in FPSes, so maybe I'm not the kind of gamer you're looking for to back you up.

Having said all that, I don't personally like to rush as my sole tactic. It might be weird, but I just like having long games. I guess I just like that feeling of an epic battle of wits.
 

Shock and Awe

Winter is Coming
Sep 6, 2008
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I hate them the first few times, but when I get to where I can repel them without much problem I love them since it makes my job easier!
 

Ridonculous_Ninja

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Apr 15, 2009
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You are describing what we in the Starcraft community call an "all in".

This is only one kind of rush, the Zealot rush you also mention is more of a timing attack, you can recover if it fails. A 4pool from a Zerg is instant loss if they don't win outright or kill every worker their opponent has.

If you scout a weakness and you know you can win, attack. I'm against all in rushes every game, but a ling runby from a 9 pool speed or something similar is a completely valid tactic.
 

Ironic Pirate

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May 21, 2009
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Pardon my noobery*, but it seems like fun. Defending at the Alamo, helms deep and all that. And if you win, you'd be defeating a larger force than yours several times over through sheer skill, tactics, and technology. If there was more sex it would practically be the American dream!

Although I can see being angry if you did lose...

*My experience with RTS's is Age of Empires; Age of mythology, which I got pissed at when I realized flank attacks were useless and then just fucked around with the map creator.
 

s0denone

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Apr 25, 2008
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Catalyst6 said:
Sapient Pearwood said:
I don't see it as a barbaric tactic, I see it as an extremely effective but more expensive scouting technique. If it works then great, I win but if it doesn't I get to see what you're building and set you back in resources so much you can't afford to just change strategy on the spot. Even in the event of a total failure I see in your base and can counter what I think you'll build based on what I see.
When I say "rush" I don't mean "send in ten zerglings", it's more like the people who build three miners and dump the entirety of the rest of their resources into barracks, which then fly to the entrance of your base to start pumping out marines. Or the guy who builds only a couple miners and a forge, then puts as many photon cannons in front of you as possible (no units at all). Gimmicky crap like that.
What can you do? It's really, really funny when you do it yourself.
If someone cheeses you up with a gimmecky strategy? Either crash the game or ragequit, if you don't think you can clean him out.

No reason to be so bothered, I think.

What annoys me are things like voidray-spams, and the like. That is just fucking awful.
 

Ridonculous_Ninja

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ShadowKatt said:
I hate rushing, mostly because I was never any good at it. I used to play with someone who excelled at Starcraft. He had his keyboard mapped, he knew every map, every unit down to how fast they could move so he could time everything to the split second. He could rush anything. Zerglings in one minute, marines in three minutes, zealots in four minutes.

36 carriers in ten minutes

I stopped playing with him. There was absolutely no chance of beating him. Ever.
I don't... I just... How could you...?

If he had 36 carriers in 10 minutes, you let him take 5 expansions and he built no army. Or you were playing fastest maps. If you attacked him or scouted him at all I can't see that being possible...
 

IxionIndustries

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Mar 18, 2009
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I hate rushes, especially fucking zealot rushes. Those things are so damn hard to kill with lings, and somehow, the computer opponents and human opponents always seem to get like 8 of the fuckers.

Yeah, that's why I don't do melee. I always go for the custom games.
 

Trebort

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Feb 25, 2010
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People hate me for it and constantly ***** at me.

But I never ever rush, ever.

I'm always the dopey one at the back strolling along happily. I don't rush. I just think, if I'm going to be late, I'm late. Nothing I can do about it. It's not like the world will end if I'm not somewhere on time.
 

Bourne

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May 8, 2010
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The Austin said:
I don't understand people who ***** about rushing.
Do you honestly expect me to divide my forces and all that? No! I'm just going to rush the shit out of you, and you are going to like it!
I wonder, have you ever had "fun" playing a game, and not the "fun" you think you are having from winning... That is satisfaction, a very different feeling.
 

Lancer723

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Dec 12, 2008
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Catalyst6 said:
Proxy gateway is way worse that any rush tactic. You can scout an early rush, but on certain maps it's almost impossible to find proxies unless you're really diligent or very lucky. And Proxy gatewaying (I just made that word up) is waaaaay more of an all-in than any kind of rush, because at least if you lose a rush you can still throw down a cybercore or the other race equivalent and have some chance of winning depending on how much damage your rush does. If your proxy fails, you lose your production facilities which basically means auto-loss, even if you have some buildings at your main, the inability to produce enough units is almost always a killing blow.

If you ever watch people who are really good at SC2, you will see that most games, at least one person rushes to an extent, they almost never win with it, but that's not the point. The point is to force your opponent into an uncomfortable position and gain an advantage in the early game that they can exploit later in the game. To use a chess analogy, they are trying to force the opponent into a defensive posture while at the same time not giving him time to formulate a plan.

Yes, rushing can be used as a cheap way to win. However, you yourself said that it can be countered to good effect. The thing to take away from this is that rushing can often be construed as part of a larger plan. The game must be played at 5 minutes in the same as it must be played 25 minutes in. Having a good plan for the late game is no good unless you can actually make it to the late game, thus players have to be proficient at all times in the game.
 

DazZ.

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Jun 4, 2009
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Ridonculous_Ninja said:
-snippet-
Hey! You're not Irridium.
[/avatarRelatedStatementOfJest]

OT: I don't see a problem with rushing, I play CoH mostly and it's pretty much needed to beat the British, once they have their frontline defences up it's going to take you a long time to get past, you need to get in before that.