Poll: School District about to Get Sued

[malestrithe]

Yes it's okay and should be permitted. Public schools are funded by taxpayers, therefore taxpayers should have the right to practice their beliefs, and their children should also have the right to practice their beliefs, in public schools and other publicly funded places. The same thing goes for kids not being allowed to bring bibles to school or whatever. This is just another example of the government forgetting who they work for; us. That's not to say people should be able to do whatever they want, but when it comes to restricting basic freedoms, such as freedom of religion, people should be allowed to make their own decisions about practicing their beliefs on school property.

Would be true, but you missed the part where the prayer was at a public assembly and the issue is not the prayer itself. The issue is whether or not the school has the right to have the prayer at a public event, As long as that school accepts and uses tax payer money, the answer is not it cannot. No matter how you spin it, having the prayer is a endorsement of one religious over another by a public entity.

The country is not founded on the principle of Majority rules. It is founded on the issue of equality for all. Since everyone has a different religion, the government is protecting all of its citizens from persecution simply by stating that we are officially neutral The government is working for the benefit of all of its citizens simply by not allowing the prayer in the first place. Otherwise, we would have to devote time to everyone. How about we give time to all other religions, say a prayer for the Muslims, the Jewish, the Pagans, the Shintoists or the Buddhists. In order to make this absolutely fair, either everyone plays or nobody plays.

Love how you think the government should only work to protect your beliefs and no one else's.

 

[JJMUG]

What I love is all the atheists bitching about how the religious people are forcing their beliefs on them, so they turn around and try to push a law through preventing the religious from practicing their religion. So basically it's unacceptable for someone else to tell them what to do, but totally okay for them to tell someone else what to do. I'd like to shoot these fucking hypocrites in the head with a 12-gauge shotgun.

The people you should blame for this are not athiests, but the Jehovah's Witnesses. The Jehovah's Witnesses had 40 separate cases leveled against them over their religious views and won most of them. Thanks to the witnesses, everything including school prayer, has been truncated.

Whatever you want to say about Atheists, please remember that the laws do not protect atheists. Rather, they protect minority religions from the majority.

Also, not very Christian of you to want to shoot people in the head with a 12 gauge. Remember that whole love thy neighbor, turn the other cheek thing you keep telling others? Does that not apply to you?

Actually that is very Christian, the bible says you should kill those who do not believe.
Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)

Read more: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_verses_in_the_Bible_advocate_killing_non_believers#ixzz1N3bMyTZk


If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB)

Read more: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_verses_in_the_Bible_advocate_killing_non_believers#ixzz1N3bZqx9H

 

[CM156_v1legacy]

As many are saying, it should not be forced. But really guys, read the First Amendment. Really, it is not what you think it is. ?Of? =/= ?From?

However, it should be allowed by any students and teachers who wish to do so together.

It was helpful to me to know that there was a group of like-minded people I could turn to for assistance

 

[Twilight_guy]

Yes sue the school. Your kids totally don't need those biology books and art classes that the school had to slash budgets to keep. Nope, teachers can totally teach with no supplies or books. Come on people, if you have to raise a stink at least sue someone who isn't constantly hurting for cash. eesh.

My question: Can he opt not to participate in the ceremony at all? Can he choose to have a muslum prayer prayer?
I can understand if the school is trying to put a particular religionious spin on this or is forcing people to participate. It seems a bit extreme and self-important to try and take the whole thing down though. I don't know if that was his intention or not of course but I don't see why choosing not to listen is such a hard thing. He is clearly in the minority and is interrupting an integral part of a tradition. I can see how he'd be upset and torn between participating and being nervous but I've sat though long boring school rituals before and so has everyone else. He can't really expect a largely religious school to bend for his singular will so I don't see why he cant argue for some other special accommodations. Why not just let him quietly leave during the prayer? This seems like an awfully big mess for what should be easily handled by school officials without much fuss.

 

[Bags159]

He can't really expect a largely religious school to bend for his singular will so I don't see why he cant argue for some other special accommodations. Why not just let him quietly leave during the prayer? This seems like an awfully big mess for what should be easily handled by school officials without much fuss.

Yes he can because they are breaking the law. It doesn't matter if they're a largely religious school; they're still publicly funded. What is up with everyone and using majority rule as the deciding factor here? I don't know anyone who likes speed limits; maybe we should just get rid of them eh?

Yeah, suing a school probably isn't the best course of action, but the law is the law. How do you cause change in a school? Threaten their funding.

 

[Twilight_guy]

He can't really expect a largely religious school to bend for his singular will so I don't see why he cant argue for some other special accommodations. Why not just let him quietly leave during the prayer? This seems like an awfully big mess for what should be easily handled by school officials without much fuss.

Yes he can because they are breaking the law. It doesn't matter if they're a largely religious school; they're still publicly funded. What is up with everyone and using majority rule as the deciding factor here? I don't know anyone who likes speed limits; maybe we should just get rid of them eh?

Yeah, suing a school probably isn't the best course of action, but the law is the law. How do you cause change in a school? Threaten their funding.

I'm not saying that majority makes it right for them to do that, I'm saying that majority makes it impracticable to stop having the pray. He said that he knows of three atheist people in town (or was it his class?). If he is in such a small minority the better option is to, instead of changing the ceremony, simply let him leave and return after the prayer. It takes two second to set him up in location where he can simply slip out when he's uncomfortable and come back in, noone gets sued and the whole mess is solved. Instead we have to have a big debate about it and have incendiary arguments over the whole thing. (I looked through some of those comments on that web page and my god its like rednecks praising religion but in reverse). There is no reason to make a big mess out of this when the administrations could have easily fixed the situation.

 

[ImmortalDrifter]

I don't really see what the big deal is. If you don't want to do it, don't do it. If they punish you for not doing it, then sue them.

Well my opinion has already been stated, guess I'll go gamble.

 

[Shadeovblack]

I find it funny that many people say "Let them pray, who's it gonna hurt?"
And many people also say "They can be gay, as long as they're not flamboyant about it."
How about "They can pray, as long as they're not flamboyant about it." and "Let them be gay, who's it gonna hurt?"

I'm putting that in my sig!

 

[Sparkytheyetti]

By the US Constitution their is a separation of church and state. Education is mandated by state. Therefore, logically there should be no prayer. Personally i don't care. Everyone is entitled to freedom of religion. However, religion should not be pressed upon to other individuals. And besides you can always not bow your head. Which is what i used to do at school.

This kid would get sh*t no matter what he did. But he deserves props for upholding the constitution and being FAIR and EQUAL about written law. Reminds me of a science teacher i had that was also a pastor. He would do speech's all the time in class. Finally one day in the middle of class i said " Mr. Whatshisface, i think i should be learning about the atomic structure of carbon, than paraphrases from a book that believes the world is only 2000 years old and that man and dinosaur lived together. As mandated by the law." Needless to say a religious student was pissed and bitched. I talked with the teacher and the principal. I said i was right regardless of what they wanted to do, so follow the states law as much as i had to follow the rules of the government established educational facility. They both said i was an ass in saying it, but i made a very "educated" argument and sent me on my way. Best day ever when you get to rock the establishment once and a while.

 

[infohippie]

Slightly off-topic, but this thread reminded me - is the Pledge of Allegiance still done in US schools? I've heard about it in books that were set in US high schools and it always struck me as kinda creepy.

OT: If some students want to pray, no reason they shouldn't be allowed to. However, teachers should not be able to organise any kind of prayer through schools or in them due to their positions of authority and influence over the students.

 

[Sparkytheyetti]

Slightly off-topic, but this thread reminded me - is the Pledge of Allegiance still done in US schools? I've heard about it in books that were set in US high schools and it always struck me as kinda creepy.

OT: If some students want to pray, no reason they shouldn't be allowed to. However, teachers should not be able to organise any kind of prayer through schools or in them due to their positions of authority and influence over the students.

Only elementary school students say it. That ends bout 5th or 6th grade. At least when i was in.

 

[alandavidson]

I have a question, if you really don't care what people believe, then why do you care if they pray, I mean how will that affect you in anyway?

I have the same question.

I have an answer based on speculation.

He lives in the Bible Belt, he's not religious. I imagine there's a lot of religious practice, and religious propaganda going around him.

Not having the misfortune of living in a Bible Belt, I can't speak from personal experience here, but maybe he feels suffocated, since saying you're an atheist in the bible belt is akin to social suicide. Maybe he just wants the school to adhere to the law, since religion is pretty much everywhere else.

I live in "buckle" of the Bible Belt, and it is not at all social suicide to say that you're an atheist. People generally let you be and don't roam the halls of schools hunting you down and hounding you about Jesus. Separation of church and state is very much as work here.

As far as "religious propaganda", unless you count cheesy church signs and kids doing carwashes to help raise money for some orphanage somewhere every weekend in the summer, there's really not a lot of that either.

It bears pointing out that while many CLAIM to be Christians, most are not practicing (do not attend church on a regular basis, serve in outreach, evangelize, etc).

So if he feels suffocated, it's a self-imposed strangulation. You are just as free to be an atheist in the Bible Belt as you are elsewhere.

As far as the prayer goes, the school is not forcing him to pray. He does not have to observe the religious functions that others partake in. Just as I do not join when my Muslim friends pray to Allah in my presence, I do not stop them from doing so because I do not believe that it is right to stifle anyone's religious freedoms. If you are completely confident that there is no God, then someone praying to a non-existent being should do nothing more than humor you.

The kid is suing to have "freedom from religion", which is a way of attempting to force Christians to believe what he does. How then is he any different from those he believes are forcing religion on him?

 

[Korolev]

If the individual student wants to pray, I don't have a problem.
If a whole bunch of individual students want to pray on campus or in the cafeteria, I don't have a problem.
If religious students want to wear symbols of their religion (crosses, jewish caps, head-wear), then I don't have any problems.

If the administrative staff exhorts and actively tell students to pray, THEN I HAVE A PROBLEM.

You want to pray? Fine. I don't. And I don't like being told that I have to. If you think you have a right to ask people to pray, then I reserve to right to stand up in the middle of the prayer and scream at the top of my lungs "BALONEY!".

 

[alandavidson]

It was just speculation, I have no idea what he goes through everyday, whether he's just an intolerant bigot or a regular guy who took a complaint a little too far out of frustration.

Not knowing the guy, I can't really say. Just an assumption on my part, he probably leans more on the "bigot" side. Which, if true, is really sad because there really is no need to freak out so much about religion being practiced around you.

But in the words of the great Jack Nicholson

 

[Shadowtek]

I'd say it's ok if people in the school want to have a big group prayer, but it should be perfectly acceptable for people to sit out. Saying that no-one should pray is just as bad as saying everyone should.

My thoughts exactly.

 

[DocMcCray]

This man is a hero.

Not because he got prayer taken out of a ceremony, but because he stood up for his constitutional right to be free from Religion.

I agree that prayer isn't a big deal. If you don't believe in a god, then you believe they're just talking to themselves. However, Religion has no place in an institution of education. The emotional ties one has to their religion brings to much of a bias into the system.

He may be hated by his community, but he's a hero in my book.

See, this is what irritates me the most.

It is "Freedom *OF* Religion" not "Freedom *FROM* Religion"

Some how this got twisted into "You can't pray in front of me because I find it offensive."

Anyone who doesn't want to be involved in the praying process, just don't pray! One person speaking up because he doesn't like prayer and trying to force others not to pray just because he doesn't share their beliefs goes against the letter and intent of the US Constitution.

 

[SL33TBL1ND]

I go to a Christian school and I'm an atheist and they very specifically say every time they pray. If you are not the sort of person who prays, please maintain a respectful silence, and I do. That is how it should be managed in the cases of religious schools. But in the case of a public school, religion shouldn't even be there.

 

[Lance Arrow]

So you're telling me this guy got kicked out of his home and run out of town because he stood up for what he believed in?

Shit's going down...

 

[malestrithe]

See, this is what irritates me the most.

It is "Freedom *OF* Religion" not "Freedom *FROM* Religion"

Some how this got twisted into "You can't pray in front of me because I find it offensive."

Anyone who doesn't want to be involved in the praying process, just don't pray! One person speaking up because he doesn't like prayer and trying to force others not to pray just because he doesn't share their beliefs goes against the letter and intent of the US Constitution.

Despite what you want to think, the issue is not the prayer itself. You are free to pray in schools and no one is taking that right from you.

The issue is where the prayer took place. At a publicly funded school and at a school event. The kid chose to say his prayer in front of a graduation ceremony, which is a school function. Because the school allowed it in the first place, that is tantamount to this school publicly endorsement one religion over another, which is against the Constitution. That is what the pending lawsuit is going to be about.

The First Amendment does not protect your right to pray. It protects you from the government imposing one ideology over yours. Allowing the kid to pray in front of a graduation means this government funded school is advocating one religion over another, which again is a violation of the constitution.