America was founded by Puritans, aka crazy religious nuts, DEAL WITH IT! But no on a serious note Its starting to get annoying anytime someone starts to cry foul, ANYTIME religion comes up in public schools, and to be blunt its been talked to death. We get it, there is a seperation between church and state, yadda yadda yadda, more facts about this typical subject, seriously doesn't it just make you tired even thinking about this subject? We get it, no we do, athiests you have the right to believe that there is no God, and thats cool, so in response to some prayer at graduation anyone who is atheist should be able to abstain from it, plain and simple.
Poll: School District about to Get Sued
- Thread starter Mcmuffin
- Start date
Recommended Videos
The student's error is in assuming he has a constitutional right to freedom FROM religion. He does not, and neither does anyone else. The First Amendment to the United States Constitution states that congress is debarred from either establishing a national religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, not that citizens have a right to disallow religious practices that they disagree with. Nor does it obligate government at any level to ensure that citizens are untroubled by the religious practices of others which they happen to disagree with.
That said, it's hard to say if the prayer in question is illegal or not. If the ceremony has a school functionary praying as a part of his official ceremonial duties, that could be construed as an establishment of a particular religion, and thus forbidden. If the prayer is a part of, say, the valedictory speech, then that would fall under freedom of speech, and the valedictorian would be within his rights.
That said, it's hard to say if the prayer in question is illegal or not. If the ceremony has a school functionary praying as a part of his official ceremonial duties, that could be construed as an establishment of a particular religion, and thus forbidden. If the prayer is a part of, say, the valedictory speech, then that would fall under freedom of speech, and the valedictorian would be within his rights.
You know, now that I think about it, what if this kid was Muslim? Or Hindi? or any religion not Christian? Then would it be okay for him to protest? A lot of people really have it in for atheists, but this is an issue that affects all non-christian beliefs.
I see nothing wrong with praying in school. As long as the prayers aren't mandated, or religious practices aren't in the curriculum or affecting the learning process, I couldn't care less.
The one thing I learned growing up as an atheist is to realize that in my neck of the world I am a vast, VAST minority. Regardless of my beliefs and opinions, people are going to think and do what they want, and if that involves prayer who am I to object?
Prayer was commonplace in my high school, even more so now than back when I attended, considering that a church that was damaged by floods now congregates in the auditorium. As long as it doesn't affect the actual educational process, I see no real problem with it. If you believe, more power to you. If you don't, just twiddle your thumbs for a few seconds while everyone mumbles mumbo-jumbo for a bit and get on with your day.
The one thing I learned growing up as an atheist is to realize that in my neck of the world I am a vast, VAST minority. Regardless of my beliefs and opinions, people are going to think and do what they want, and if that involves prayer who am I to object?
Prayer was commonplace in my high school, even more so now than back when I attended, considering that a church that was damaged by floods now congregates in the auditorium. As long as it doesn't affect the actual educational process, I see no real problem with it. If you believe, more power to you. If you don't, just twiddle your thumbs for a few seconds while everyone mumbles mumbo-jumbo for a bit and get on with your day.
Assuming that this is a public school we're talking about, it counts as a government institution and is thus bound by constitutional laws, meaning it's illegal for it to "establish" a religion by forcing students to pray to that religion while demonizing all others, which seems to be what was going on over here.aashell13 said:
A given person cannot go to a church and say "I don't like your religion so you have to stop!" however, people do have the right not to have religion pressed onto them (and given the captive audience nature of a school setting, it's hard to argue against the view that leading prayer in school forces religion on a student, especially in this case where he was ostracized just for standing up for his right to not have Christianity forced on him.)
Captcha: Only elaybl, only a label?
should it be allowed? yes.
should it be mandatory? no.
but seriously, why does it bother people that don't believe in god? why should it bother them?
should it be mandatory? no.
but seriously, why does it bother people that don't believe in god? why should it bother them?
Counter question: Did the event, in any way, promote one or more religions over other religions (or lack thereof)?gibboss28 said:
It isn't about him being forced to pray or not[footnote]Mainly because he wasn't 'forced', but if he was this would be about that[/footnote], it is that a public school showed unbalanced favour to a religion.
OT: He did the right thing trying to get the prayer removed from the graduation ceremony. They could have had a moment of silence to reflect upon their time at the school, allowing people to apply their own religious beliefs to the situation.
I went to a private Catholic school, so I'm not really sure about whether or not that girl leading fellow Christians in prayer is allowed or not (I think she was a student, so I don't know if it violates the American constitution or not. I mean, if it was her Captain's speech or something, then it is just her view, which she is allowed to express, but on the other hand, she did create a very 'pro-christian' environment by having a prayer session right there and then).
im having a difficult time picking sides here... For one i hate Athiest who cant accept other peoples beliefs and go along with something for a few short minutes. Deciding to instead stick their nose in it and excercise freedom of speech for the billionth time and change it cuaseing trouble for everyone else and doing more harm then good.
BUT i also hate left winged Religous nuts who believe their gods the one true god and will bible bash you in the face if you disagree. That speech was so passive aggresive it could have been a silent hill villian. My friend had a girlfriend that when she was getting Baptised they gave a similar speech, with him and her family all different religions.
So yeah, I dont know which one pisses me off more and i will be leaving now seeing as though i got work in the morning...
BUT i also hate left winged Religous nuts who believe their gods the one true god and will bible bash you in the face if you disagree. That speech was so passive aggresive it could have been a silent hill villian. My friend had a girlfriend that when she was getting Baptised they gave a similar speech, with him and her family all different religions.
So yeah, I dont know which one pisses me off more and i will be leaving now seeing as though i got work in the morning...
Yeah those arsehole atheists who stick rigidly to a rigid constitution because it's all that can protect in scenarios such as these...Blemontea said:
owait.
If religious people are tired of atheists speaking up when the state/church line is crossed.
Stop doing it.
No, it wasn't right for the student to be ostracized. But allowing a prayer as a part of student participation in graduation ceremonies is not the same as establishing a particular religion; the student making the speech with prayer in it is not a school official, and the speech is merely her thoughts on high school and graduation, not an instrument of school policy. Unless the school is forcing the atheist student to recite the prayer along with the speaker or otherwise alter his behavior from what it would be in the absence of the prayer, I don't see that he has much of a case.Duskflamer said:
Duskflamer said:
First off I am going to openly say that I'm atheist.Jegsimmons said:
Indeed the student has a constitutional right to 'mention' god in his or her speach, BUT not to lead a full-fledged CHRISTIAN religious prayer. The freedom of religion portion of the first amendment also implies a freedom from religon in goverment or a public place, your freedom of religon extends right up to the point that it is forced upon those who do not want it around them.
There is a similar arguement given to me by my government teacher of my senior year in high school. I have the right to punch you in the face right up until my hand makes contact with your face then I'm violating your right not to get slugged. When applied to this argument it changes into. You have the right to speak of your beliefs right up until those that are listening feel that you are violating their right to not have it forced upon them or their children. This only applies to areas like: schools, government buildings, and privately owned property. You can preach all you like in parks and the side of the road.
Or expoused views contrary to a particular Christian sect. Happens all the time to us catholics.Mechanix said:
The valedictorian speech is not released prior to the cerimony, all he would've had access to was the program itself.aashell13 said:
QED it violations the establishment clause.
I go to a public school in the shit town of Tucson. We have a Christian club, and I think thats cool. There is a time and place for everything, and if even the shittiest public school district is willing to accept that, it goes to show how outspoken athiest nazis are assholes. Most my friends are athiest. I have had Jehovah's Witness friends, and need I remind that Tucson is swarming with Mormons so that goes without saying. My friends have never been offended by prayer.
I think the issue here is that this athiest was surrounded by christians so he felt sensitive and vunerable. So i guess the point I'm trying to make is that its cool to be athiest, or morman or whatever. But there is always one outspoken ***** that ruins things for everyone, and those people can just rot.
I think the issue here is that this athiest was surrounded by christians so he felt sensitive and vunerable. So i guess the point I'm trying to make is that its cool to be athiest, or morman or whatever. But there is always one outspoken ***** that ruins things for everyone, and those people can just rot.
The people you should blame for this are not athiests, but the Jehovah's Witnesses. The Jehovah's Witnesses had 40 separate cases leveled against them over their religious views and won most of them. Thanks to the witnesses, everything including school prayer, has been truncated.Dense_Electric said:
Whatever you want to say about Atheists, please remember that the laws do not protect atheists. Rather, they protect minority religions from the majority.
Also, not very Christian of you to want to shoot people in the head with a 12 gauge. Remember that whole love thy neighbor, turn the other cheek thing you keep telling others? Does that not apply to you?