Hm, I get annoyed about female characters that are just there for tits and fanservice, or if they're all ridiculously girly, but being a tomboyish woman m'self, ya can kinda guess why.
Then again, sometimes I'm sexist towards women myself. I've gotta stop insulting groups of people that I belong to. (Namely women and British people.)
Male here. I don't consider video games "sexist" in the slightest unless those games actively imply that women can't do certain things that men can. But often some people seem to think that "sexy" and "sexist" are the same. They're not. There's nothing wrong with sexiness. There's nothing wrong with showing a little skin. And thus, there's nothing wrong with making games where characters show a little skin. Or a lot. I don't get why anybody thinks there's something wrong with it. Promiscuity is a right, and if developers want to design promiscuous characters who are proud of their figures and have a very positive body image, they should be able to do that. To say that they can't do that and to imply that they are sexist for doing it is a form of discrimination. The only thing wrong here is getting offended by it.
The only thing sexist about it is that there aren't more games with buff dudes for ladies to check out. I wouldn't beat sexism by ending sexy games. I would just beat it by making MORE sexy games that pander just as much to women as they do to men. Hell, let's have a "Dead or Alive Xtreme Beach Hunks Edition". Or a "Skullguys". Y'know, in Soul Calibur 4 you can design some pretty showy outfits for the men too.
I'm female and I'd rather play as a sexy female than a fully covered up one, though if I had a choice I'd prefer one somewhere in between.
With regards to Skullgirls? I don't find it sexist, at least I don't find skinny girls with big...assets...and not much clothing any more sexist than huge beefy men in say Modern Warfare etc.
With regards to sexism in general? As long as the character is well developed and interesting I couldn't care less what she looks like or what she's wearing.
As a male gamer, I think it's ridiculous to say that sexism isn't a problem in games sometimes. I think the sexist card may be pulled out a few too many times, but it's really really hard to say that it doesn't exist or isn't a problem when I can scroll over to several RPGs on my desktop, and compare a massively bulky male warrior who I'm not even sure is actually located inside the layers of high-tier plate, and the willowy female warrior who's best armor is basically an armored thong and sports bra. Or, alternately, costumes for the normally sensibly-armored female characters that go right down the fanservice road, while the unlockable/buyable male costumes are just different variations on the textures and models of standard armor (I'm looking at YOU Dungeons and Dragons Online!)
Video games in general doesn't by any chance cover tournaments? Cause I'm pretty pissed at the BM that there is girls only tournaments and if the same thing was being done with guys, that tournament would hear an outrage from everyone for not letting females participate...
I'm male, and I really don't pay attention to it. Hopefully, developers try to figure out what people would be wearing, and base the models around that. It doesn't always work that way in practice, such as the totally impractical outfits that adorn most women in fighting games, but I like to think that at least some thought to practicality goes into the design process.
Thing is... if you look at a game like Golden Axe as an example that comes to mind, people might mention how impractical and revealing the only woman's armour is, while the fact that the tall burly warrior is wearing even less in the form of skintight blue speedos would probably go comparatively unnoticed.
The intent and how the audience are meant to engage with it are everything, it's not just about counting the square inches of skin shown. The problem is that the woman is wearing that for no reason other than to appeal to men. Objectification reduces the character and marginalises the female audience.
Whatthe said:
xXxJessicaxXx said:
This is what women have to put up with everyday in games, movies and comics. Female characters are put on display for men while male characters have relevant character based poses. It's pretty indicative of the attitude towards female characters.
(particularly love Iron Man in the usual Samus pose...)
Is there a reason that this is considered sexist? I know that you say that this indicates the attitude toward female characters but that does not mean it has the quality of sexism. Female characters are posed in a way that is most appealing to the demographic but does that indicate inferiority?
By the way I only ask this to see if you have a good reason for this belief not because of my belief that this is or is not sexist. I just want to know why people genuinely think this is wrong.
Yes, it indicates inferiority. Leering over a character actively gets in the way of identifying with them, and the male characters' poses are meant to indicate strength, skill and power, while the female character is meant to possess all of these qualities too but all she's actually exhibiting is a fine ass.
Which isn't to say that sex appeal is 100% bad 100% of the time, but it needs to be balanced out - I'm not too offended by that Avengers poster for example, because I know the character is probably going to get fairer treatment in the actual movie.
(also, that picture is hilarious and incisive as hell and I love whoever made it forever)
Belated said:
Male here. I don't consider video games "sexist" in the slightest unless those games actively imply that women can't do certain things that men can. But often some people seem to think that "sexy" and "sexist" are the same. They're not. There's nothing wrong with sexiness. There's nothing wrong with showing a little skin. And thus, there's nothing wrong with making games where characters show a little skin. Or a lot. I don't get why anybody thinks there's something wrong with it. Promiscuity is a right, and if developers want to design promiscuous characters who are proud of their figures and have a very positive body image, they should be able to do that.
That's the problem - 90% of the time, women in games aren't sexualised because of anything to do with their character, it's to appeal to the male audience. They're not dressed like that because they're confident, sexual characters - they're dressed like that because regardless of their actual personalities they're there for the men to look at. The textbook example is the stone cold warrior maiden who dresses like a stripper - there's no reason in the woman's actual character for that, it's purely to titillate and it contradicts or trivialises the character's actual personality.
This is why while I still have problems with Isabella from Dragon Age 2 and Bayonetta, I consider them a step up from many female characters in gaming - their skimpy outfits and general sexualisation at least fits the characters, and you can actually imagine the developers sitting down and conceptualising a saucy pirate lady as a character before making the decision to give her massive amounts of cleavage.
Ofcourse they're sexist. And if they aren't, someone will make a mod for it.
I wouldn't mind some more games with believable female protagonists, who are there for other than just fanservice, though.
Male here. I feel I am missing out on possible experience by the distinct lack of sexism towards men. I demand to be offended!
Not only is the objectification of just women in video games ridiculous, it's also not historically accurate, I mean, here's a picture of Henry VIII's Armour, used during one or other of our conflicts with France. (I won't lie, we've had a lot of them, get's kinda hard to keep track of which is which...)
Look at that freakin' codpiece! You don't see that your fantasy RPGs, but boobplate and chainmail bikinis are bloody everywhere!
The intent and how the audience are meant to engage with it are everything, it's not just about counting the square inches of skin shown. The problem is that the woman is wearing that for no reason other than to appeal to men. Objectification reduces the character and marginalises the female audience.
Yes, it indicates inferiority. Leering over a character actively gets in the way of identifying with them, and the male characters' poses are meant to indicate strength, skill and power, while the female character is meant to possess all of these qualities too but all she's actually exhibiting is a fine ass.
Which isn't to say that sex appeal is 100% bad 100% of the time, but it needs to be balanced out - I'm not too offended by that Avengers poster for example, because I know the character is probably going to get fairer treatment in the actual movie.
(also, that picture is hilarious and incisive as hell and I love whoever made it forever)
That's the problem - 90% of the time, women in games aren't sexualised because of anything to do with their character, it's to appeal to the male audience. They're not dressed like that because they're confident, sexual characters - they're dressed like that because regardless of their actual personalities they're there for the men to look at. The textbook example is the stone cold warrior maiden who dresses like a stripper - there's no reason in the woman's actual character for that, it's purely to titillate and it contradicts or trivialises the character's actual personality.
This is why while I still have problems with Isabella from Dragon Age 2 and Bayonetta, I consider them a step up from many female characters in gaming - their skimpy outfits and general sexualisation at least fits the characters, and you can actually imagine the developers sitting down and conceptualising a saucy pirate lady as a character before making the decision to give her massive amounts of cleavage.
I don't think you are looking at this from the right perspective. You are saying that female characters should only show sexuality if it goes with their personality and even then the fact that they're poses are aimed to satisfy male audiences is sexist. I don't think the solution to the problem is to get rid of eye-candy for the male audiences. I mean, just look at it like this for a moment. Let's take Dante from DMC. He is constantly striking poses and wearing outfits that are there solely for providing eye-candy for the female audience. Nothing about his personality or the context of the story justifies his scarcity of clothes, his S&M decorations or his overt sexuality. Do you feel that that gets in the way of how the character develops? Do you think less men can enjoy DMC because Dante blatantly caters to women? Do you think men think Dante is less cool? I think, from my experience with DMC fans is that the answer is no.
DMC doesn't only do this with Dante. It does it with many other characters some of which are female.
Do you hear loud cries from the female fans saying DMC is sexist towards women? No. I think it is a great example of how the industry SHOULD design and present it's characters if it wants to win over both genders. I mean, I would love to listen to your opinion. I would make further points but first I would like to hear your reply.
Okay, it's been a hell of a long time since I played a DMC game but as far as I can tell the fetishistic outfits and female-targetted fanservice in that game fit Dante's personality perfectly: he's a camp, cocky, metrosexual showoff...in fact, wasn't Bayonetta concieved as something like a female version of Dante?
I have no idea who the girl in that picture is, but she looks way more sexualised than I've ever seen Dante...he wears no shirt under his trenchcoat, she wears no trousers and barely covers her breasts. Dante on the other hand is balanced as both a badass men want to identify with and a bishie for the fangirls. His design might be revealing, but it doesn't instantly alienate one gender from identifying with him. If he wore assless chaps and a string vest, I'd imagine the male half of the fandom would feel very differently about him. You don't play Devil May Cry and instantly think, "this is a game for girls. God, I can tell why they put him in this."
More to the point though, Devil May Cry is the exception, not the rule. I don't think I've ever seen anybody accuse that series of misogyny and I wouldn't myself. If everybody is equally sexualised (which I'm gonna take your word for and assume they are) then...fine, I guess. Wouldn't want every game to be like that, but at least it's equal treatment. You just can't apply the same defense to many other games, because it's usually only the women who get presented that way.
Video games in general doesn't by any chance cover tournaments? Cause I'm pretty pissed at the BM that there is girls only tournaments and if the same thing was being done with guys, that tournament would hear an outrage from everyone for not letting females participate...
aside from (kind of point IMO) things about male/female brains they are on eaqual footing, so they should be able to compete..theres no reason for the seperation
To be frank, sexism is a serious issue, and yes, there have been games in the past that objectify women (and I'm sure men too, but I can't think of any examples). But -a lot- of the cries of 'sexism' these days are either misfounded or containing outright dizzying levels of stupidity (Case in point: people calling Bioware sexist because Ashley's new armour is -gasp- fitted to her form, stop the presses, call the authorities!)
Honestly I feel the real issue with sexism in the video game industry today is that people are all too eager to jump on the "sexism" bandwagon and are actually damaging the credibility of those people with legitimate concerns. The Skullgirls protests, for instance. A legitimate concern, I'm not saying they were right, only that they were right to be concerned. And as a case in point, the Dev's ham-fisted 'defense' of "Oh, our artist is a woman, so it can't be sexist.' Was the part that offended me. That's the sort of defense a highschooler comes up with, not a full grown man responsible for the well being of dozens of employees.
So in conclusion, Yes, I believe sexism is a real issue, but current trends are seriously hampering any claim to legitimacy it has.
As a rifle enthusiast, there is no way a gun like that should be able to be fired by a single person, man or woman, it's got a bloody Howitzer sized barrel and no butt stock, it'd break your arm if you tried to fire it!
(sorry, I couldn't resist, I'll go back into my hole now)
What I think is the main problem is not that women are hyper-sexualized or sexy or whatever, but rather that women can ONLY be hyper-sexualized characters when men have a much wider variety of character arcs and personalities given to them.
To paraphrase MovieBob, in a predominantly visual medium such as video games, a characters pose, default stance, emotional state, etc. can serve to tell a lot about their personality and character...if it's a male character. Most female characters, however, are posed in order to pander to immature adolescent perverts. While I see nothing wrong with women being idealized (after all, idealization of the human form is what made some of our greatest works of art), I think it's wrong that that is all there is to them.
Are video games sexist? It depends entirely on the video game in question and the person questioning it. I've never thought of any games as being sexist, Borderlands might be bashed for having few female NPCs (Though there are several females that play major roles, like the Guardian Angel, Tannis, Pierce, Steele, Athena, etc) but I never thought of it being sexist until somebody mentioned it.
You don't really notice this stuff without looking for it or if you are really sensitive to the stuff, as long as the game isn't blatantly obvious about its sexism, which is rare.
Oh, and Male, 16 years old if that matters, no, video games are not sexism, in my opinion, though it depends on what video game we are talking about.
I personally don't think that video games are that sexist, although there are a few guilty ones here and there. Personally if someone shows off a bit of skin and they have a well developed and strong personality, I don't care if their breasts are noticable or if they have their hair down...yeah I'm kinda talking about Ashley here, you people do know that she had noticable "armor boobs" in the first two games right? Anyway I think people tend to become a little over zealous about this kind of thing, to me it's only sexist when women are displayed as inferior to men. Also, I think that it's clear that people prefer strong women in games if the massive back lash from Metroid other M is anything to go by.
Male here. In the games I've actually played I can't think of any examples of sexism, except for things that are actually accurate like how there aren't that many females who fight as frontline soldiers even today so most warriors are male, and how in Total War the female characters are only useful for being married off because the number of female generals who led in battle like male family members do could probably be counted on one hand.
I did once, a number of years ago, play a copy of Duke Nukem: Land of the Babes on the playstation that was borrowed from a friend, but of games I actually own, I honestly can't think of an example of what I would call sexism.
That said, I'm aware there's notable amounts of sexism in other games. I just don't think I've happened upon any of them personally.
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