Poll: Should Anita Sarkeesian debate games that are within her cultural means?

[Lightknight]

While I disagree with her argument as a whole, I agree that it is fully within her means to address issues she thinks she has with anything. I would discourage her from using Japan-only games as examples or proofs of anything larger, but if a product is aimed at a global market then it is a legitimate target for people seeing it played in their own culture.

Again, I fully believe that Anita has hinged many of her arguments of outright failed definitions and is totally wrong in a lot of ways. But she isn't doing anything wrong by discussing games from around the world. That's her prerogative, right or wrong.

 

[Erttheking]

Japan has a different culture? Yeah well the middle east has different culture and I think we're on agreement that honor killings are bad. I know people are gonna jump on me for using an extreme example, but I'm trying to make a point, and the point is, sometimes "They're just different" falls really flat. I don't get why every time people point out the blatant sexism in Japanese culture we get accused of being "Arrogant" No, we're not. We're just not so blind to political correctness to say that everything other people do is just "their way" People hate that political correctness stuff right? And if the Japanese don't want people outside their country criticizing their media, maybe they shouldn't have such a heavy focus on exporting it.

I'm starting to get sick of american "superiority" over japanese media, all those posts about how perverted their media because they don't treat sex like some sort of curse, the best example is Dragon's crown that had the audacity to have a female with LARGE BREASTS, oh the horror. (And if you actually played any of Vanillaware's other titles you'd see that they all feature badass women who are expertly written).

Anita in general has the same credibility has the guy who watched Citizen Kane and now proclaims he "knows" films, not to mention if you want to make an adult discussion don't name it like a wrestling match-Tropes vs. women.

If Americans can't criticize Japanese culture and media without being arrogant, (You didn't use the word arrogant, but how else am I supposed to interpret the word 'superiority' that implies arrogance) than non-Americans can't criticize American culture and media without being arrogant.

I don't think we're in any position to critique their sexuality when ours is equally as fucked up (puritan mentality for the lose). That said, I do think we have the right to critique cultures and their media for poorly representing women. It can be hard to separate those two worlds sometimes, but they are very different.

We can be. We can say that their mindset of sex sucks and that ours does too. Everyone sucks!

 

[Fappy]

Japan has a different culture? Yeah well the middle east has different culture and I think we're on agreement that honor killings are bad. I know people are gonna jump on me for using an extreme example, but I'm trying to make a point, and the point is, sometimes "They're just different" falls really flat. I don't get why every time people point out the blatant sexism in Japanese culture we get accused of being "Arrogant" No, we're not. We're just not so blind to political correctness to say that everything other people do is just "their way" People hate that political correctness stuff right? And if the Japanese don't want people outside their country criticizing their media, maybe they shouldn't have such a heavy focus on exporting it.

I'm starting to get sick of american "superiority" over japanese media, all those posts about how perverted their media because they don't treat sex like some sort of curse, the best example is Dragon's crown that had the audacity to have a female with LARGE BREASTS, oh the horror. (And if you actually played any of Vanillaware's other titles you'd see that they all feature badass women who are expertly written).

Anita in general has the same credibility has the guy who watched Citizen Kane and now proclaims he "knows" films, not to mention if you want to make an adult discussion don't name it like a wrestling match-Tropes vs. women.

If Americans can't criticize Japanese culture and media without being arrogant, (You didn't use the word arrogant, but how else am I supposed to interpret the word 'superiority' that implies arrogance) than non-Americans can't criticize American culture and media without being arrogant.

I don't think we're in any position to critique their sexuality when ours is equally as fucked up (puritan mentality for the lose). That said, I do think we have the right to critique cultures and their media for poorly representing women. It can be hard to separate those two worlds sometimes, but they are very different.

We can be. We can say that their mindset of sex sucks and that ours does too. Everyone sucks!

I guess I was trying to say that it's kinda tacky and hypocritical as a culture to attack their sexuality when ours is just as mess up XD

 

[Erttheking]

Snip

In my mind that only really works that way if you don't acknowledge our sexuality as messed up. I do, I don't buy our bullshit take on it, and I don't feel limited by "The American way" to follow in marched step. So I think I'll say what I please about sexuality in this country and others.

 

[AntiChri5]

This is like asking "Is rape okay if another culture says it's okay... as long as it's 'over there'"

Of course not, and there are certain overtly objectifying tropes in Japanese media that we should address and pressure the industry to correct, no matter what their culture says is and is not acceptable.

Yes, because a panty-shot of a fictional character is on par with rape... Are you serious?

He was taking the argument to it's ultimate logical extreme to demonstrate it's flaws. He isn't saying japanese games mistreating women is the same as rape.

It's still a fallacy, because as I said, it's not a real human being, nobody actually gets hurt from it.

And the criticisem on japanese games is almost always fanservice, regardless if the characters themselves are good or not.

The argument isn't that video game characters have feelings too so we shouldn't be mean to them. Literally nobody thinks that.

 

[Fappy]

Snip

In my mind that only really works that way if you don't acknowledge our sexuality as messed up. I do, I don't buy our bullshit take on it, and I don't feel limited by "The American way" to follow in marched step. So I think I'll say what I please about sexuality in this country and others.

I suppose I wasn't expressing myself clearly, but what I meant to say that we shouldn't critique their view of sex from a position of superiority. As you said: if we're to critique their culture we must identify and accept our own shortfalls.

 

[Erttheking]

Snip

In my mind that only really works that way if you don't acknowledge our sexuality as messed up. I do, I don't buy our bullshit take on it, and I don't feel limited by "The American way" to follow in marched step. So I think I'll say what I please about sexuality in this country and others.

I suppose I wasn't expressing myself clearly, but what I meant to say that we shouldn't critique their view of sex from a position of superiority. As you said: if we're to critique their culture we must identify and accept our own shortfalls.

I agree with this 110% Criticizing from a position of arrogance IS a no-no.

 

[Jiggle Counter]

This is like asking "Is rape okay if another culture says it's okay... as long as it's 'over there'"

Of course not, and there are certain overtly objectifying tropes in Japanese media that we should address and pressure the industry to correct, no matter what their culture says is and is not acceptable.

Nobody can alter the matter by aggressively addressing and pressuring foreign industries to make change. That's like walking into someone else's back yard and shouting your beliefs. A lot of people dislike overly trespassing religions because they spread the word of their god in the same stomping manner without discussing the who, what, when, where, how and why.

The best way is to lead by example. Change what's in your back yard first. Maybe envy will change others, who knows, money talks.

Anita speaks to her audience, who act on it accordingly. She's not one person telling games devs what to do, that wouldn't work. No one would listen to her. She speaks to her audience, who then make the decision on whether or not to buy games.

If I voted with my wallet then I'd miss out on a lot of fun products.

I'll give you an example. I love anime. There this one anime in particular called Zero No Tsukaima. Season 1 & 2 are a fun series of adventurous, romantic comedies. Then season 3 & 4 change entirely. For some reason they decided to inject objectifying tropes everywhere. Female characters magically got their brains removed and their tits out. The story is STILL there, but it's just ruined by that one teeny tiny piece that really doesn't belong in there. I mean, what are they expecting the audience to do? Be sexually aroused whilst listening to a story about Harry Potter'ish kids saving the world? Is it like having extra butter on your popcorn or something?

Games are the same. What if there's an awesome game and it's simply ruined by objectifying tropes? A competitive fighting game like Mortal Kombat 9, the female outfits in it. Do they have any reason to be there? If you told me that all the females were succubus or something, then I'd be fine with it. They're in character. It makes sense. But then I probably wouldn't buy Succubus Kombat 9 because surely the story would change because of the character switch and it'd be labelled as a different style of game. Probably a game for people who want to fight with an erection?

Sexual objectification is fine if its used correctly, like in bedroom roleplaying types, if you're into that kind of stuff. I just don't want to buy the next Harvest Moon or the next Forza Motorsport and have what are basically porn pop-ups in my game.

I would imagine her audience aren't Japanese, and so I doubt Japanese developers would pay her any attention. They already cherry pick what games they feel would have an audience over here (for right or wrong), and I can't imagine she has the power to impact that.

You'd be surprised. She has publicity, money, the internet, and the occassional death threat. She could move mountains, or HAS moved mountains and we just haven't realised.

I have a bit of a problem with this thread. It's well intentioned, and arguably very reasonable. But it tends to help frame Sarkeesian as The Only Feminist In The Village Industry, ergo the entire discourse is set by her strengths, her weaknesses. Are we really talking about Anita, herself, or just using her as an example? Because that distinction needs to be made.

In this thread I talk of Sarkeesian only, as she's the only identity the internet has shoved in my face. She's the only person I'm aware who is doing what she is doing.

It started off on the net, where I watched her videos and the people who responded to them. Then people in my home country (Australia) started to talk about her. She even appears in media here, making headlines.

I'm a gamer, and the neighbours are fighting, so to speak. I'm using this thread to voice my opinion (Or maybe express my confusion) Ask a question or two, using Sarkeesian and her intent as foundation and her resources as... Well... A thought...

Regarding her strengths and weaknesses, I'm not the type of person who thinks, "Oh no, she's a single mom, lesbian, right-winged republican, purple-people-eater, and now I'm not gonna listen to her because of her label" I'm not like that.

But this is just a thread. I'm using the thread for what it is, a thread. I'm just grabbing peoples opinions and growing on them.

As for the general question: yes, I do believe someone critiquing a very globalised medium has the right to analyse outside their own cultural borders. Mario, as an example cited, has been a part of most of our lives to some degree. I've never bought a Nintendo system, and I likely never will, but I played various Mario's on the NES, SNES, and GameBoy growing up - as did Sarkeesian, presumably. That example is a part of gaming culture, not just Japanese, or North American, or European.

I believe that Chinese food is still Chinese food, even if you've had it in a non-Chinese country all your life and Chinese food has impacted you somehow, maybe given you allergies or something. Regardless, Mario started in Japan, is hand-built, designed, patented, copywrited, married-to, written by, Japan.

You are right, she has the right to analyse games derived from other cultures, but I think if she simply focussed her efforts on the games that come from home first, then maybe her efforts would bear more fruit.

A lot of people shift blame quickly. We'll talk about games, their issues, and then someone will say, "Well that's Japan. We invented the wheel and they invented hentai..."

In the end the crowd loses focus, not concentrating their efforts. Mario will have to wait.

 

[Spartan448]

I'm starting to get sick of american "superiority" over japanese media, all those posts about how perverted their media because they don't treat sex like some sort of curse, the best example is Dragon's crown that had the audacity to have a female with LARGE BREASTS, oh the horror. (And if you actually played any of Vanillaware's other titles you'd see that they all feature badass women who are expertly written).

Anita in general has the same credibility has the guy who watched Citizen Kane and now proclaims he "knows" films, not to mention if you want to make an adult discussion don't name it like a wrestling match-Tropes vs. women.

The funny thing is that the culture police here complain about games from Japan with overly sexualized characters, yet it is now universally hated when Anime is edited from its original from to be imported, despite the fact that many Animes are arguably WORSE when it comes to overly sexualizing characters.

 

[CpT_x_Killsteal]

I say let her; it'll give the Japs something to laugh at.

OT: If Anita is just an example and the question is "Should we debate games outside of our culture", then yes, we should be able to talk about anything and everything in my book. Although performing a side-by-side comparison of American culture up against Japanese culture won't really yield any intelligible results, which is probably one of the reasons westerners consider Japan friggen weird.

 

[V da Mighty Taco]

Of course she can, so long as she's civil about it and is genuinely willing to hear out other perspectives, especially criticism of her own arguments. The very act of trying to have a debate is not a bad thing, regardless of how faulty one's arguments or beliefs are. In fact, I'd say that it's very healthy to want to have a debate on one's beliefs, as it opens up both sides to new perspectives and the potential for learning from one another.

It's only when one is being uncivil, hostile, or dishonest about it that it becomes a problem, not them simply wanting to have the discussion in the first place.

 

[The Goat Tsar]

Let's work by statistics: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_statistics#United_States

If I'm reading this right, japan has several times less cases than the USA or UK, so which culture has the right to lecture about sexuality in media?

You're making the assumption that everyone that finds Japanese attitudes towards sexuality distasteful is American. I'm Swedish, and according to that page you linked, Sweden "has been ranked as the number one country in sex equality." And I'd like to say that Japanese attitudes towards sexuality has turned me off much of their media because their interpretation of sexuality comes off as immature. Does the fact that I'm Swedish make me right? No, but now you can't disregard my opinion with ad hominem attacks because I'm not American.

 

[Bad Jim]

I'd say Anitas' main failing is that she finds fault in a great many games but presents very few positive examples. People who are interested can support a positive example by buying it, while complaining about sexist games does little to stop people buying them.

 

[Brandon Shorter]

Let's work by statistics: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_statistics#United_States

If I'm reading this right, japan has several times less cases than the USA or UK, so which culture has the right to lecture about sexuality in media?

You're making the assumption that everyone that finds Japanese attitudes towards sexuality distasteful is American. I'm Swedish, and according to that page you linked, Sweden "has been ranked as the number one country in sex equality." And I'd like to say that Japanese attitudes towards sexuality has turned me off much of their media because their interpretation of sexuality comes off as immature. Does the fact that I'm Swedish make me right? No, but now you can't disregard my opinion with ad hominem attacks because I'm not American.

Hm I'd disregard it ,because most of the time people who discuss japan in any form ,its a weirdo westerner with a moral superiority complex mostly European in ancestor . ,who only interaction with the people in question is from the various random game they've imported . Don't gotta like there game but if I was of another culture (And I am) I would disregard your opinion you to both economically and socially . If my culture has different taste and demographic in game design .why would I care what a Western thinks ? There opinion are literally worthless . Anyway given that the person neither socially are economically related to me I'd ignore you to , why bother ?

Far as I understand with Porn related ,that western for some reason seem to know more about it than the average person in japan lol. Japanese make porn for whatever niche there is long as it within the law which means all form of Child porn are illegal and have been . There no discussion about reforming hentai anymore then there reforming Yaoi or or sexual media , It not a debate it a market . And Representation eh think they could care less .They don't make media as individual representation of anyone they exist to serve there market and demographic . So that not a moral issue for a group oriented society as japan.

 

[The Almighty Aardvark]

Let's work by statistics: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_statistics#United_States

If I'm reading this right, japan has several times less cases than the USA or UK, so which culture has the right to lecture about sexuality in media?

I'm not sure that's a good measure of sexism. Look at where the United Arab Emerites fits in there, they beat Japan, Canada and United States. Reminding you that this is a country where the rape victim can be sentenced to prison for participating in extra-marital sex.

OT: I absolutely think she should. It's criticism, that can be applied universally. Not to mention that english speaking countries are a huge consumer base of Japanese games. The only caveat is that, as someone else already mentioned, you need to tread a bit more lightly than countries you're familiar with

 

[Verlander]

If I voted with my wallet then I'd miss out on a lot of fun products.

I'll give you an example. I love anime. There this one anime in particular called Zero No Tsukaima. Season 1 & 2 are a fun series of adventurous, romantic comedies. Then season 3 & 4 change entirely. For some reason they decided to inject objectifying tropes everywhere. Female characters magically got their brains removed and their tits out. The story is STILL there, but it's just ruined by that one teeny tiny piece that really doesn't belong in there. I mean, what are they expecting the audience to do? Be sexually aroused whilst listening to a story about Harry Potter'ish kids saving the world? Is it like having extra butter on your popcorn or something?

Games are the same. What if there's an awesome game and it's simply ruined by objectifying tropes? A competitive fighting game like Mortal Kombat 9, the female outfits in it. Do they have any reason to be there? If you told me that all the females were succubus or something, then I'd be fine with it. They're in character. It makes sense. But then I probably wouldn't buy Succubus Kombat 9 because surely the story would change because of the character switch and it'd be labelled as a different style of game. Probably a game for people who want to fight with an erection?

Sexual objectification is fine if its used correctly, like in bedroom roleplaying types, if you're into that kind of stuff. I just don't want to buy the next Harvest Moon or the next Forza Motorsport and have what are basically porn pop-ups in my game.

But the objectification isn't what made those media good? I'd say ignore the anime example anyway - Sarkeesian is far from the first prolific western feminist to criticise them, and they've not changed anything. Their audience is Japan, and if anyone else likes them it's a boon. For videogames, however, they would remain good games without the objectification.

You're right, you can't sterilise everything. Sex sells, and it will never disappear (and I think that's a positive thing). All social movements have involved an element of compromise, particularly with consumer goods. Even though Sarkeesian rips into games into loads of detail, I think even she would be the first to admit that her primary goal is to rid games of gratuitous objectification.

You'd be surprised. She has publicity, money, the internet, and the occassional death threat. She could move mountains, or HAS moved mountains and we just haven't realised.

Honestly, I cant see them giving two shits

 

[Poster1234]

Most of all, Anita Sarkeesian should debate games she has actually played. The fact that she apparently lifted videos from other let's players puts her "research" into question.
The other problem is that she went into this project with a set goal and, dare I say, an agenda, which causes her to see sexism where it isn't there.
A good example is when she talks about the Hitman franchise, claiming that it encourages violence against women and does not punish it, in spite of the game :
-punishing you for every person you kill (man or woman) by having to deal with the consequences (even as little as hiding the body) as the "preferred" method of play is to eliminate as little people as possible and simply get to your target.
-actually making the murder of women LESS rewarding by the simple fact that the main point of killing NPCs in this game (stealing disguises) is not applicable in their case, as agent 47 cannot take their clothes.
-generally using the environment of the (usually male) target, including how he treats women, as a way to show how vile and perverted the target is, thus stating that guys who treat women poorly are, in fact, assholes.

Finally, I cannot bear how she claims this franchise stigmatizes "expressions of female sexuality" in spite of having herself stated that the sex industry is, in fact, not a good thing for women. Is it only good when it serves her point ?