Poll: Should feminists be involved with anime mediums?

[Rahkshi500]

My thoughts on this is probably similar to Insaninater's. If people, whether they're feminist or not, want to get involved in anime, then they are free to critically analyze it. I may not necessarily agree with some of the things they might say, but I ain't gonna tell them that they can't be involved in the medium.

 

[Sung-Hwan]

Anyways, I think this discussion has taken a nasty toll on my mind. I just thought that if people immediately assume something is bad because of fanservice, that's not only biased and childish, but it'd also mean anime like Bakemonogatari are supposedly bad. Yeahhhh no, I'm out.

 

[Leoofmoon]

I'm 50/50 on this, for one Feminist is mostly a USA and EU things they really don't exist in other countries and to be perfectly honest the female population in Japan do seem to have as much power as men, there country is more put of there culture and things of the past like blood types. The reason we see blood types pop up in character profiles in games is because there was something in Japan that said certain blood types would act a certain way so its like short had for telling how a persons personality acts. As well Japan is more sexually open then we are here in the west they never came from a Protestant background like is but they still did have a time of sexual representation but now they are very open about sexuality and sexual themes.

On the other I do feel some things can be improved by it, some characters I would much rather be more interesting characters in anime other then "hey boobs!" or a person to just suck on a banana in the background. When I see a anime that is mostly just having the female character just in bras and panties screams to me that the writers and animators where so bankrupt for ideas of a story and interesting action that they just resorted to a titty show.

This is the sort of generalization I absolutely despise. You cannot honestly assume an entire medium is what you describe due to a certain kind of pandering that is already frowned upon....IN the medium itself.

Apparently you missed the part where I said some anime, Highschool D&D is one that I feel story is worthless with the amount of fan service being thrown in a person face and all the Otaku so deeply defending it here in the states people get a bad taste out of what anime is in for. I grew up during the 90's when I had all the violent shit but we also had stuff like Trigun, Outlaw star, Cowboy bebop, ghost in the shell, all the different gundam sires.

Yes anime has evolved since then but all the trash anime is pushed to the forefront while better stuff is sitting quietly in the back because of one to two reason. I am a huge gundam fan but Gundam Build fighter was held back for a while mainly because the company itself wanted any US to pick up the WHOLE sires back from Turn A gundamn to current and that is a lot of money that can potentially go to wast for way more then one reason, bad translation team, bad audience and marketing, poor quality voice acting. When you run a company picking up a anime and translating it is costly.

And to go back on topic from how most of this people see is just Hentai images that they think is from the show mainly because sometimes they do make porn with the same company or same artist, or they just see things like this

being heavily marketed by american company's and think that this is all its about, when your a outsider to a community you have no idea what goes on inside or even what real fans are like.

 

[CpT_x_Killsteal]

A question to the people arguing above me:

Do you think fanservice anime, cutesy moe moe anime, ecchi anime, or fanservice ing eneral should be removed from the genre as morally wrong or creatively poor? These shows are clearly targeted at a certain set of people and other demographics have a high probability of inherently not liking them.
Hang on, let me get to the point here. Some of these anime could exclude women (among others). Is that neccesarily bad? There are some that are clearly targeted FOR women (Free! anyone?), so there's something for everyone. Is any of this really all that bad?

 

[Izanagi009_v1legacy]

snip

Perhaps I still do have that absolute "all or nothing" in my head. the issue I have it's not an even split but more of a 25/75 split and quite frankly, all medias need to improve and grow at some point so I would rather we have more people who are able to see these tropes and understand the impact.

At this point though, to use a rather harsh comparison, most of the viewers are like transformer movie fans; no real ability to evaluate characters or plot and just in it for the ride. I would prefer a much more standard disbribution of people along academic vs hedonistic lines versus the rather skewed bias we have toward hedonism. At the same time though, even I admit to liking stupid fun stuff and so would protest the complete opposite skew.

 

[Sung-Hwan]

TC, you need to learn to take joy in others' ignorance. You need to laugh at them for missing out on the joy of the VN or other material due to their ignorant fanaticism, not be offended. They're like children, they don't know any better and end up hurting themselves in the process. Nothing to be mad over. Just like how you wouldn't be mad a child spilled water all over your pants, you shouldn't be mad at a feminist for seeing something like Kana Imouto and calling you a pervert. Yes, there's sex that's there for titillation in the VN, there's also gut-wrenching depressing and amazing writing and story, too.

And I think you put it best, so I'll just remember this one to remind myself if I do get upset over a situation like this. Thank you.

 

[[Kira Must Die]]

]I forgot. What was this thread suppose to be about again?

OT: Whatever. Let people enjoy what they like. If there are some feminists that like anime or want to get into anime, I say go right ahead. They're not hurting me. I don't feel like I have a say as to who can watch anime or not.

As for the medium itself and whether it's sexist or not, I'm just looking to be entertained. I've liked some ecchi anime before. One of my favorite anime series is the Monogatari series, which can get very fanservice-heavy at times. I just don't care. If an anime has fanservice, I'll just shrug and go along with it. At this point I'm desensitized to it and just accept it as a part of the medium. I know not everyone is like that, but I don't concern myself with what others think.

To be fair, entertainment and quality are not mutually exclusive and while people may think of me as an asexual nutjob, I do in fact think that some characters are cute or that some look hot. The issue for me with anime is that so much of it is based on what I call substances-less sexiness or substance-less cuteness. If I was to take a character from something like Infinite Stratos, the characters would have a very well designed exterior that would make men like them but to me, they are hollow with no real personality or growth.

Compare that to say, Rin Tohsaka (yes, I'm on a Fate/stay night train, just go with it), she has internal conflict and growth rooted in both events in Fate/Zero and her relations to both Sakura and Archer in all the routes. She also has a well defined personality with some nuance.

To make a long point short, fanservice in and off itself is not the issue, the issue is if it only has fanservice.

Oh, I'm not arguing. I like my women to have personality and character to go with their physical attractiveness. It's, to me, what makes them even more attractive. It's part of why I love Monogatari. Yeah, the characters are very sexualized, but they also have interesting personalities, character arcs, and interactions with eachother that makes them fun and enjoyable to watch. As oppose to, say, Cross Ange, where I feel nothing everytime a character is naked.

 

[Izanagi009_v1legacy]

A question to the people arguing above me:

Do you think fanservice anime, cutesy moe moe anime, ecchi anime, or fanservice ing eneral should be removed from the genre as morally wrong or creatively poor? These shows are clearly targeted at a certain set of people and other demographics have a high probability of inherently not liking them.
Hang on, let me get to the point here. Some of these anime could exclude women (among others). Is that neccesarily bad? There are some that are clearly targeted FOR women (Free! anyone?), so there's something for everyone. Is any of this really all that bad?

In short, no but with caveats

In long: eroticism and good writing are not mutually exclusive. Again, I would argue Kill la Kill as a combination of both. However, if I was to only take one or the other, writing would be my focus because I don't feel like I'm being treated like a chimp. The distribution of quality among shows with fanservice kind of weighs against it with most of them having poor to even antagonistic bad writing (second arc of SAO anyone) and the number of shows with both good writing and fanservice are slim in the grand scheme of things.

Seeing as the elimination of fanservice is entirely impossible, I would like to at least have people ask for better characterization and plot in their fanservice shows than just well, fluff.

 

[Queen Michael]

A question to the people arguing above me:

Do you think fanservice anime, cutesy moe moe anime, ecchi anime, or fanservice ing eneral should be removed from the genre as morally wrong or creatively poor? These shows are clearly targeted at a certain set of people and other demographics have a high probability of inherently not liking them.
Hang on, let me get to the point here. Some of these anime could exclude women (among others). Is that neccesarily bad? There are some that are clearly targeted FOR women (Free! anyone?), so there's something for everyone. Is any of this really all that bad?

The way I see it is this: Fanservice in series made specifically for the sake of fanservice -- like Monster Musume or See Me After Class -- then I'm absolutely fine with it. Everybody needs some shlock every now and again and I like a pretty girl just as much as anybody else. But when it's in a series where it's got nothing to do with anything else, and it just looks really malplaced, yeah, I wouldn't mind it getting lost.

Let me put it this way. I can assume that most of the people in this thread has seen Puella Magica Madoka, right? And we all agree it's a great show, right? Right. Now imagine that the series had been exactly like it is, except there'd been a male character who constantly was shirtless for very contrived reasons, and who hung around Madoka & pals just so there'd be shirtlessness for female and gayman viewers. Wouldn't you feel that the show would have worked better as a whole without the manservice?

 

[raikagetaicho]

I really think it's just the fact that I am Asian, and have always been with animated media, and you're just a Westerner, who's likely only known Marvel or DC. I don't find it strange if you can't get into anime, but don't claim things that aren't true like everything being pandering.

"Who's likely only known Marvel or DC?" First of all, why no Image comics? You think I'm the only one not to love Saga and The Walking Dead?

Spoiler: Secondly, check this out.

[http://s1295.photobucket.com/user/HerrNeon/media/DSCN2426_zps921d393e.jpg.html]

[http://s1295.photobucket.com/user/HerrNeon/media/DSCN2427_zps2c0eba96.jpg.html]

[http://s1295.photobucket.com/user/HerrNeon/media/DSCN2428_zps5fd6b801.jpg.html]

[http://s1295.photobucket.com/user/HerrNeon/media/DSCN2429_zps4f6e45d5.jpg.html]

[http://s1295.photobucket.com/user/HerrNeon/media/DSCN2430_zpsfa082c9f.jpg.html]

[http://s1295.photobucket.com/user/HerrNeon/media/DSCN2432_zps7b2d5e6a.jpg.html]

[http://s1295.photobucket.com/user/HerrNeon/media/DSCN2431_zpsd5bb38eb.jpg.html]

Those were a few pics of my collection. Now do you believe me?

Yes I do. I just don't get why you would hate anime then, since it's a medium strongly tied to manga.

I don't hate anime. Anime's great. Granted, I've only watched a few series, thirty at most (and I'm not claiming to have finished them all either), but I like what I've seen.

Didn't you just go on a rant of how misogynistic, sexist, and or childish the medium is not too long ago? I may have forgotten.

Have you ever heard of "I hate it because I love it"

In this case, I hate the pandering, idiotic elements of anime that seek only to satisfy the minds of nihilistic teenagers but love anime for it's potencal to tell stories and themes in a way that live action can't

Pointing out flaws within a medium does not make you a hater; if so, then Ebert would have been the most well known hater of movies ever and I remind you that he helped in several productions and even made a movie (admittedly, it's a bit of an oddball).

See, the issue here is where you said "pandering, idiotic elements of anime that seek only to satisfy the minds of nihilistic teenagers" and try to apply it to every anime that exists. That does not sit well with someone who has seen dozens of anime clearly outside of what you're assuming. Keep in mind that fanservice is not as liked by viewers as much as you assume either.

broad generalization is broad.

I could name a few examples of shows that either don't have fanservice or use it for tonal dissonance and narrative but the fact that I can name just as many if not more shows that have fanservice or pandering makes me ill or have woe for the medium

Stop waching anime then.

I've been watching anime since I was 6 on Toonami, I have taken a small interest in Japanese culture because of anime and I am invested in the medium's growth in hopes that it can improve.

The times I see a Gundam Unicorn, a Madoka, or a Fate/Zero are worth the times I bash my head at the Infinite Stratos and Cross Ange of the medium

Anime/manga/related are that good because the artist who create they have the balls to do whaever they feel, that include there sexual fantasies, even miyasaki can't stop to put panty shots in his movies(again the self proclaim feminist).

 

[Queen Michael]

If we're talking people who happen to identify as feminist, and approach anime in a genuine love for the medium and the story that's being told, and they can set aside their politics to produce something good, then of course they should be welcome to contribute to the medium.

So, and let me know if I'm misunderstanding what you're trying to say, the only way a feminist can approach anime with a genuine love for it is to set aside their feminist ideas and produce something good, that apparently cannot be in any way related to feminist ideas. Why do feminists have to set aside their "politics" to approach anime, again? Is there something wrong with looking and analyzing anime through a feminist perspective in the exact same way people have done to books, TV, movies, and so on?

Let me see if i can clear it up.

What i'm basically getting at, is i don't want any SJW crusaders with zero interest in anime trying to involve themselves in the medium purely out of Social Justice ideology. It's the difference between, for example, a cold-war-era propaganda video, and bioshock infinate. Both clearly have an agenda, and want to address an issue, but one does so with respect and love for the medium, while the other only exists to serve it's agenda, with zero regard for the enjoyment of the medium, story, characters, or consumer audience, apart from the desire to plant an ideology in the mind of the audience, do you see what i mean?

So what you're basically saying is that if people demand series that are satisfying from a feminist point of view, they should have some sort of interest in actually watching those series once they get made?

 

[cleric of the order]

everything is (and should) be subject to criticism

even criticism from a femenest/whatever perspective

I would like to be needlessly contrarian

?Nothing touches a work of art so little as words of criticism: they always result in more or less fortunate misunderstandings. Things aren't all so tangible and sayable as people would usually have us believe; most experiences are unsayable, they happen in a space that no word has ever entered, and more unsay able than all other things are works of art, those mysterious existences, whose life endures beside our own small, transitory life.?
?Works of art are of an infinite solitude, and no means of approach is so useless as criticism. Only love can touch and hold them and be fair to them.?
~Rainer Marie Rlike

Though this assumes it's a work of art, a work of peaceful love. An ex nihilo. If it's committee driven garbage then to the jackals it can go.
captcha, zombie atttack, well then rather relevant to this section

TC, you need to learn to take joy in others' ignorance. You need to laugh at them for missing out on the joy of the VN or other material due to their ignorant fanaticism, not be offended. They're like children, they don't know any better and end up hurting themselves in the process. Nothing to be mad over. Just like how you wouldn't be mad a child spilled water all over your pants, you shouldn't be mad at a feminist for seeing something like Kana Imouto and calling you a pervert. Yes, there's sex that's there for titillation in the VN, there's also gut-wrenching depressing and amazing writing and story, too.

But how can I take joy in their ignorance if they don't know they are wrong and i am superior.
I MUST DO THIS.

-snip-

Normally i wouldn't take their side but i have to agree.
Rational discussion is the better option for handling this

 

[Izanagi009_v1legacy]

snip

I'm a fan of Persona because despite the stupid elements (which there are few), the characters and plot are well written enough that I can ignore it or they can enhance the situation. Fanservice is not an inherent evil, it's a tool that can be abused or used properly. In Kill la Kill's case, it was used for thematic and narrative purposes. In the case of Infinite Stratos, it's just there to jingle keys in my face like i'm a magpie attracted to shiny stuff.

As for the comment of "getting out of the medium", sound like a massive cop out to me because I've stated that there are shows that are good despite the fanservice and pandering:I admit to laughing with No Game No Life and Toaru Majutsu no Index is one of my favorite shows. Just keep it restranted and nuanced and I won't want to bash my head.

 

[Rahkshi500]

Let me put it this way. I can assume that most of the people in this thread has seen Puella Magica Madoka, right? And we all really like it, right? Right. Now imagine that the series had been exactly like it is, except there'd been a male character who constantly was shirtless for very contrived reasons, and who hung around Madoka & pals just so there'd be shirtlessness for female and gayman viewers. Wouldn't you feel that the show would have worked better as a whole without the manservice?

That would depend, especially if the shirtlessness is a part of the male character's characterization and personality, and even then it's not as cut and dry as that. Honestly, this kind of question is very old, and it runs on a strong assumption about the people you're asking, as if you expect them to answer with a "yes" when it's more complicated then that.

 

[Izanagi009_v1legacy]

snip
Anime/manga/related are that good because the artist who create they have the balls to do whaever they feel, that include there sexual fantasies, even miyasaki can't stop to put panty shots in his movies(again the self proclaim feminist).

I will refer you to my defense of Kill la Kill as an excellent show with the fanservice enhancing the experience

Fanservice is a tool and if you use it well, I have no issue. You use it as poorly as some shows I've mentioned and I will punch it in the face