Poll: Should feminists be involved with anime mediums?

[Sniper Team 4]

So...I'm not the only one who read that post and thought, "Wow..."? Good to know.

Yes, I think feminists should be involved. They can talk and enjoy/complain about manga and anime all they want. Unless, of course, you're willing to give up your desire to talk and complain about them. You do not have to listen to them. They aren't going to get your stuff banned, no matter how hard they try. Shrug them off and keep enjoying what you're reading or watching. I completely enjoy Strike Witches. I know that if a feminist, or at least they type you attacked (key point there, you attacked her), would be completely pissed about that series. As such, I wouldn't bring it up. And if she brought it up, I'd just look at her and shrug, then go back to reading it.
Now if she starts harassing me, or tries to take away my book or anime, then we're going to have a problem. If it's online, I'll report her. In real life, I'd get up and leave or something.

But yes, just because they might find the content offensive doesn't mean they should not be allowed to comment on it. They're going to end up wasting their breath trying to shout it down, but still.

 

[Shingeki no Gingerbeard]

Yes you are generalizing, and you're not doing yourself any favors here, either. You have refuse debate. You have resorted to self-puffery. You have even yet to even say what specifically the conversation was about; leaving us with little else beyond the fact you "savagely insulted this person with the worst insults imaginable."

You'll never receive vindication from us here, but you might find closure if you frame the conversation with the proper context. A link would be nice; assuming the thread wasn't locked and deleted.

 

[MysticSlayer]

I don't see why I shouldn't be allowed to watch and comment on anime simply because I'm a feminist. I can be critical of the presentation of women in the show just as much as I can be critical of plot holes or a character I don't like. It doesn't mean I don't like the show. It just means that I think the writing could have improved in a certain area. I still love Wolf's Rain despite disliking that four episode recap of the first half of the show. I still love Golden Time despite finding Koko's character to be a little too weird at the beginning. Likewise, I can think that a show could do a better job of presenting women while still finding it to be an overall enjoyable show. It's a form of criticism, just like all other story criticism, and finding some bad aspects doesn't mean I hate the whole. It just means I'm willing to recognize both the good and bad of the show.

 

[Sung-Hwan]

I don't see why I shouldn't be allowed to watch and comment on anime simply because I'm a feminist. I can be critical of the presentation of women in the show just as much as I can be critical of plot holes or a character I don't like. It doesn't mean I don't like the show. It just means that I think the writing could have improved in a certain area. I still love Wolf's Rain despite disliking that four episode recap of the first half of the show. I still love Golden Time despite finding Koko's character to be a little too weird at the beginning. Likewise, I can think that a show could do a better job of presenting women while still finding it to be an overall enjoyable show. It's a form of criticism, just like all other story criticism, and finding some bad aspects doesn't mean I hate the whole. It just means I'm willing to recognize both the good and bad of the show.

Key difference is merely based off this post alone, you've proved you're clearly rational and sane. I truly believe the way most non-anime Westerners would view the medium goes along the lines of seeing a glimpse of an ecchi, then going "this is sexist!" and looking at Attack on Titan and going "it's the only good thing."

Putrid.

 

[Queen Michael]

I just thought of something. I think what you're doing here is a fundamental attribution error.

To wit: When feminists act aggressive, it's because "all feminists are hyperaggressive." But when you act aggressive, it's because other people are being unreasonable or whatever. In short, the difference isn't that you're less aggressive (from what I can see), it's that you consider yourself to have good reasons for your aggressive behaviour.

Or at least that seems to be how you see things.

 

[Sung-Hwan]

I just thought of something. I think what you're doing here is a fundamental attribution error.

To wit: When feminists act aggressive, it's because "all feminists are hyperaggressive." But when you act aggressive, it's because other people are being unreasonable or whatever. In short, the difference isn't that you're less aggressive (from what I can see), it's that you consider yourself to have good reasons for your aggressive behaviour.

Or at least that seems to be how you see things.

Yes, when I am pissed, I likely have a good reason (in my opinion) because of how neutral or mellow I am for the most part. Because I truly care for my interests, and believe I do have a deeper understanding or caring for them than most people.

Make no mistake, I am not someone who merely watched Attack on Titan, Elfen Lied, or Sword Art Online, claim they are the best shows ever and insinuate I know of the medium. No, I am someone who likes anime no one in the West really knows of, and am always willing to discover more.

 

[senordesol]

Here's what I don't get about these vitriolic anti-feminist posts: what are you so afraid of? So what if someone didn't like something you like? Do you think it's going away by virtue of that fact alone?

It's not going away. Worst case scenario: we get some media that goes out of its way to be more inclusive. Not exactly worth having a meltdown over.

Maybe think about that next time you want to convince us how 'reasonable' you are.

 

[Queen Michael]

I just thought of something. I think what you're doing here is a fundamental attribution error.

To wit: When feminists act aggressive, it's because "all feminists are hyperaggressive." But when you act aggressive, it's because other people are being unreasonable or whatever. In short, the difference isn't that you're less aggressive (from what I can see), it's that you consider yourself to have good reasons for your aggressive behaviour.

Or at least that seems to be how you see things.

Yes, when I am pissed, I likely have a good reason (in my opinion) because of how neutral or mellow I am for the most part.

Who isn't? Who wakes up furious and stays that way for the rest of the day? Nobody. Of course it's gonna seem as if feminists are hyperaggressive if the only time you see them is on the web when they're debating feminism. And everybody who gets pissed feel they've a good reason to. You're no different from anybody else there, mate.

You know, I'm gonna take a few minutes and explain the reasons you're not getting as much agreement here on the forum as you'd like.

1. You say that you called a feminist the nastiest things you could come up with, but then you explain that it's the feminists that are hyperaggressive.

2. You have a bizarre definition of "pro-American."

3. In one paragraph, you say that you're not generalizing and that all feminists are hyperaggressive.

4. You judge people's rationality by how much they agree with you. The only people here you've called "rational" are the ones agreeing with you partly or completely. How am I supposed to have a rational debate with someone who thinks that the only rational people are the ones who agree with him already?

5. You jump to conclusions about me, and flat-out tell me that I haven't read the thousands of manga books that I darn well have read. You do this because of one comment from my side.

6. You say things like "Maybe I just have to accept the fact that I am open-minded, mature, and patient enough to see any medium or genre for what it is worth. Most people are not like me..." You're basically talking about how awesome you are, making sure to add that other people don't at all tend to be that awesome.

And for the record, I read manga that I've imported from Japan and that hasn't even been scanlated by fans. I care about my interests too, but I can tell when there's problematic stuff in them.

 

[Sung-Hwan]

are you insinuating I am insane or crazy @Queen Michael

 

[mecegirl]

are you insinuating I am insane or crazy @Queen Michael

I'd take a stab that Queen isn't insinuating that you are insane or crazy. I'd also say that Queen isn't insinuating anything at all. Queen has told you flat out what they think of your arguments. There is no need for you to read between the lines, or try to put words in Queen's mouth. Its not like they are beating around the bush with you.

OT:

You were in the wrong, and its a good thing that you were banned becase I'm fairly sure that such behavior would be against the rules(as the are in most public forums on the internet). If you can't debate someone without calling names then it is best to not debate at all. That is why forums have block/ignore buttons. There are some people who you will disagree with strongly enough that there is no point in talking to them. Its often to the benefit of your sanity that you don't engage with such people if you do not have to.

 

[Queen Michael]

are you insinuating I am insane or crazy @Queen Michael

First of all, using the quote button would be a great idea.

Secondly, I'm insinuating that you might need a bit more self-awareness. I'm not saying that to be rude or condescending, and I'm sorry if it sounds that way. What I mean is that you accuse other people of hyperaggressiveness while being hyperaggressive yourself; you claim to be open-minded while only calling people "rational" if they agree with you; when I tell you I've read thousands of manga books you tell me that you "easily see through my deception," even though I'm telling the truth; and in general you seem extremely eager to jump to the conclusion that whoever's disagreeing with you just don't know anime the way you do and just aren't as rational as you are...

In short, you have a worrying tendency to claim that no rational person, and no person who knows anime and VN, could disagree with you sincerely.

Here's what you said about me:

"This quote proves to me you have no major involvement with the medium, in any shape or form, and are just tagging along to oppose me. I do not want any business with someone who does not know much of what I am trying to get at, sorry."

It's a pretty good example of your tendency to discard dissenters. With just one sentence from my side, you decided that you didn't need to listen to anything I was saying and that you actually knew the manga-reading habits of a complete stranger from another country. That you might be wrong about how much manga I've read is something you didn't even seem to consider.

 

[Sung-Hwan]

are you insinuating I am insane or crazy @Queen Michael

First of all, using the quote button would be a great idea.

Secondly, I'm insinuating that you might need a bit more self-awareness. I'm not saying that to be rude or condescending, and I'm sorry if it sounds that way. What I mean is that you accuse other people of hyperaggressiveness while being hyperaggressive yourself; you claim to be open-minded while only calling people "rational" if they agree with you; when I tell you I've read thousands of manga books you tell me that you "easily see through my deception," even though I'm telling the truth; and in general you seem extremely eager to jump to the conclusion that whoever's disagreeing with you just don't know anime the way you do and just aren't as rational as you are...

In short, you have a worrying tendency to claim that no rational person, and no person who knows anime and VN, could disagree with you sincerely.

Here's what you said about me:

"This quote proves to me you have no major involvement with the medium, in any shape or form, and are just tagging along to oppose me. I do not want any business with someone who does not know much of what I am trying to get at, sorry."

It's a pretty good example of your tendency to discard dissenters. With just one sentence from my side, you decided that you didn't need to listen to anything I was saying and that you actually knew the manga-reading habits of a complete stranger from another country. That you might be wrong about how much manga I've read is something you didn't even seem to consider.

I said that because it's hard to believe without proof. I, for example, work on MAL and VNDB as bases and fiddle with blogs now and then.

 

[Queen Michael]

are you insinuating I am insane or crazy @Queen Michael

First of all, using the quote button would be a great idea.

Secondly, I'm insinuating that you might need a bit more self-awareness. I'm not saying that to be rude or condescending, and I'm sorry if it sounds that way. What I mean is that you accuse other people of hyperaggressiveness while being hyperaggressive yourself; you claim to be open-minded while only calling people "rational" if they agree with you; when I tell you I've read thousands of manga books you tell me that you "easily see through my deception," even though I'm telling the truth; and in general you seem extremely eager to jump to the conclusion that whoever's disagreeing with you just don't know anime the way you do and just aren't as rational as you are...

In short, you have a worrying tendency to claim that no rational person, and no person who knows anime and VN, could disagree with you sincerely.

Here's what you said about me:

"This quote proves to me you have no major involvement with the medium, in any shape or form, and are just tagging along to oppose me. I do not want any business with someone who does not know much of what I am trying to get at, sorry."

It's a pretty good example of your tendency to discard dissenters. With just one sentence from my side, you decided that you didn't need to listen to anything I was saying and that you actually knew the manga-reading habits of a complete stranger from another country. That you might be wrong about how much manga I've read is something you didn't even seem to consider.

I said that because it's hard to believe without proof. I, for example, work on MAL and VNDB as bases and fiddle with blogs now and then.

You mean it's pretty hard to believe I read lots of manga books without proof?

Also, what's MAL and VNDB?

 

[Vault101]

everything is (and should) be subject to criticism

even criticism from a femenest/whatever perspective

@Queen Michael

I see all feminists as extremists. Given the way they act, it's hard not to come to such a conclusion and view them with the highest disdain. Don't forget there's a topic describing how they've extended their antics to children's toys, or how Grand Theft Auto V is getting boycotted.

....ok

[img/]http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view7/2909206/mary-poppins-o.gif[/img]

I think I've just about seen all I need to see

 

[Sung-Hwan]

@Queen Michael
http://myanimelist.net/profile/Arcana-XII My MAL profile

https://vndb.org/u74784/list My VNDB account

http://lennyyoo.wordpress.com/2014/10/04/34/ at least one of the blogs I manage, though under construction.

Should give you some insight to who I am, or what I like.

 

[Queen Michael]

@Queen Michael
http://myanimelist.net/profile/Arcana-XII My MAL profile

https://vndb.org/u74784/list My VNDB account

http://lennyyoo.wordpress.com/2014/10/04/34/ at least one of the blogs I manage, though under construction.

Oh, you meant My Anime List. I made an account there five years ago and started listing the manga I've read. (At least I think it was there. Like I said: five years ago.)

But I think that's why you consider yourself to be much more knowledgeable than others: Because while you have watched lots and lots of anime, you won't believe that other people do too unless they provide you with evidence. And... That's just not how it works for most people. We don't go around assiduously collecting evidence of something pretty much nobody asks us to prove in the first place.

 

[senordesol]

@Sung-Hwan, you seem to be under the impression that Fandom has to be earned. As if being a fan for longer somehow gives you the authority or license to decide who can like the thing you like. It doesn't.

You are not the gate keeper. You do not get to call someone a liar based on one sentence. You don't get to insult anyone just because they hold a different opinion on the things you like.

 

[Sung-Hwan]

@Queen Michael
http://myanimelist.net/profile/Arcana-XII My MAL profile

https://vndb.org/u74784/list My VNDB account

http://lennyyoo.wordpress.com/2014/10/04/34/ at least one of the blogs I manage, though under construction.

Oh, you meant My Anime List. I made an account there five years ago and started listing the manga I've read. (At least I think it was there. Like I said: five years ago.)

But I think that's why you consider yourself to be much more knowledgeable than others: Because while you have watched lots and lots of anime, you won't believe that other people do too unless they provide you with evidence. And... That's just not how it works for most people. We don't go around assiduously collecting evidence of something pretty much nobody asks us to prove in the first place.

I don't have a profile for bragging rights if that's what you're insinuating again. I just happen to manage my stuff there, and instead of mocking me for it, you could acknowledge my experience with the mediums.

I really think it's just the fact that I am Asian, and have always been with animated media, and you're just a Westerner, who's likely only known Marvel or DC. I don't find it strange if you can't get into anime, but don't claim things that aren't true like everything being pandering.

 

[Sung-Hwan]

@Sung-Hwan, you seem to be under the impression that Fandom has to be earned. As if being a fan for longer somehow gives you the authority or license to decide who can like the thing you like. It doesn't.

You are not the gate keeper. You do not get to call someone a liar based on one sentence. You don't get to insult anyone just because they hold a different opinion on the things you like.

Someone with more experience in a medium than another has the authority to call people out for saying untrue things. Same applies to me, as I am not really the all-knowing of anime just yet. Save that for some day in the far future, when I have seen more than a 1000 shows.

 

[senordesol]

No one cares.

If you can point out something someone said that is factually inaccurate, then all that proves is that they were incorrect. It proves nothing in terms of their fandom; and nothing still on the validity of your premise.