Poll: Should I sue?

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BGH122

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Veret said:
pffh said:
Because it costs money and frankly I can think of a lot of better ways to spend the money. Like, you know, anything else.
Calatar said:
Because it is a waste of money which contributes to the "natural medicine" industry which promotes misinformation about medical treatments and the efficacy of their "alternative" treatments?
Why spend money on something when you KNOW there are no real effects?
Because you don't know any such thing. Homeopathy obviously doesn't work in any way that Western medical science can understand, but no scientist worth his salt should simply assume that we already know everything. Personally, I don't know whether it actually works, having weighed the possibility of a) Western medical knowledge being woefully incomplete against b) several million people being full of shit. The reason I came down in favor of alternative medicine in this thread is because, if the possibility exists that we can have an effective treatment without side effects, we owe it to ourselves to investigate properly.

I'm going to cut this short because we are veering away from the original topic. OP has heard my opinion on the matter, so if you want to discuss homeopathy any further you are both welcome to send me a pm.
No such thing is going on. I'll be charitable and assume that you're not deliberately misrepresenting Western medicine as pompous and that you genuinely are a sceptic awaiting proof either way. Homeopathy can be convincing if one does not understand the basics of chemistry. Essentially, homoeopathic 'remedies' rely upon the illogical presumption that water can 'remember' substances that have passed through it. Why? Because the actual active substance e.g. arsenic in a homoeopathic 'remedy' is so dilute that it no longer exists and whenever one swallows a homoeopathic tablet one is simply swallowing water and sugar.

If you wish to know more then I suggest you listen to this podcast [http://c3.libsyn.com/media/17974/skeptoid-4034.mp3?nvb=20100331214049&nva=20100401215049&t=0e1d10cdcb73ab9176c09] which calmly and simplistically explains the reasons homoeopathy doesn't work.

If that doesn't sway you then here's the British Medical Journal [http://jme.bmj.com/content/36/3/130.full] explaining why endorsing homeopathy is both unethical and lowers the standard of what counts as a remedy beyond the lowest standard accepted by scientific/Western medicine (let me know if that link fails, I'm subscribed to the BMJ so I often find that the links I send link to premium content; if it fails I'll quote the article for you in spoiler tags).
 

SonicWaffle

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BGH122 said:
SonicWaffle said:
You make good points, but there are a few things to consider. For one, the doctor who prescribed me the drugs in the first place is a dermatologist, and unlikely to save many lives. Makes him no less worthy, though.
This is hugely untrue.
My bad. I wasn't trying to make him seem like less of a doctor - clearly he did the training the same as everyone else - but he isn't the first guy i'd go to with a life-threatening problem. Now, the guys who really worry me are proctologists, because it's perfectly possible that they chose that specialisation. Which is just...who would do that?!

BGH122 said:
SonicWaffle said:
As it is currently, these creams seem to be working wonders for you, but that may well be due to the fact that he successfully isolated the fact that the previous treatment he administered you did not cure the symptoms and ergo changed his diagnosis/prognosis to reflect this fact and moved to a different treatment on this basis. It may well be that the unpleasant treatment he administered at first was all part of the process of diagnosing exactly what was/is wrong with you. It may well be that he just completely screwed up, in which case he's to blame, but then you still have to consider whether suing him would really be morally justified or whether you'd just be trying to wrangle some money out of him (which, regardless of morality, the court might grant).
The thing is, the isotretinoin/accutane was actually working really well. It dried my skin to the points where my lips were permanently cracked and I had facial dandruff, but I was still grateful to be rid of the acne; I'm 23 and by this point it's a fucking embarrassment. The issue I have with him is that he never warned me of this possible side-effect. I made sure, as I always do, to ask about possible effects of the drug I'm being prescribed. If he'd said to me "There's a chance you may develop ulcers in your bowels which will bleed and cause you great pain", I might have reconsidered. Hell, I almost reconsidered when he told me I wouldn't be able to drink for a few months ;-)

BGH122 said:
You should also take into account that, even if you do succeed, the drug company will almost certainly try to offload the legal burden onto the doctor by turning it into a malpractice suit claiming that their drug is not defective (after all, they've spend ages and millions developing it), but that the doctor mis-prescribed it. These are all facts to way up.

I respect the fact that you're trying to avoid needless litigation. It speaks well of your character to see that you're taking all considerations into account before making the more typical greedy dash for a lawsuit.
The doctor didn't mis-prescribe it, in my (humble and totally lacking in medical training) opinion - it was working. The side effects (birth defects, depression/suicidal tendencies, and a lovely range of bowel problems) appear to be well documented and studies have been around for years linking them to the drug. If anything you could say he prescribed a drug he knew to be dangerous, but had worked in other instances. Is he more to blame than the company who keeps producing it?

I've pretty much decided by now that I'm not going to jump on the bandwagon and try to grab as much cash as I can, thanks in large part to several posters in this thread who've attempted to answer the moral question I tried to pose. At the end of the day the money has to come from somewhere and that could cost people their jobs. It's not often the executives who get the shitty end of the stick. What it comes down to is that yes, I'm in a bad situation because of the drugs they kept selling when they really shouldn't have, but does trying to take them for all the money I can make me any better than the people who decided to keep it on the market?
 

SonicWaffle

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AmayaOnnaOtaku said:
Second opition especially from a specialist. Then go after the manufacter. Since from my pharmacy background accutane has some fucked up side effects. Not to mention Prednisone which as an asthmatic I despise.
What a coincidence, I despise asthmatics too! Wheezy bastards ;-)
 

Pimppeter2

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SonicWaffle said:
Pimppeter2 said:
SonicWaffle said:
It's common usage is for the treatment of severe acne. I took the medicine for over three months last year, before I had to stop due to developing Ulcerative Colitis.
My brother has UC (diagnosed this year), and now I'm wondering it he also took those pills.
When did his symptoms manifest? For me, I'd taken the pills for around two months before the bleeding began, and about two-and-a-half before the serious pain and diarrhea started. He may have been on a different dosage though, so I'm not sure about the timescale.
I'm not sure, but about two years ago he had blood in his stool that was passed off as nothing. Then this year he went to a dermatologist and she prescribed him some junk, then it started again and he was diagnosed with UC.

So I'm not sure if the pills (if he had taken that specific brand) were the cause of it unilaterally, but they may have been something that progressed it.

I feel for you, UC is pretty tough. My bro used to take like 16 pills a day.
 

SonicWaffle

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Pimppeter2 said:
I feel for you, UC is pretty tough. My bro used to take like 16 pills a day.
Hah. Yes, those were the days. 4 Pentasa & 8 Prendisolone in the morning, 4 more Pentasa and a calcium tablet at night. When I walked around I rattled like a sodding pillbox.
 

BGH122

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SonicWaffle said:
If the side effects are clearly listed and he did not inform you of them despite the fact that you requested them then he'd be very damn lucky to escape a malpractice suit. If a patient asks for the side effects of a treatment then the doctor is obliged to lay those side effects out in full, not truncate it because it's a pain in the arse to go over.

I applaud, however, your moral integrity; especially your pragmatic realisation that it is rarely those who made the bad decision that end up on the receiving end of said decisions. However, the two wrongs fallacy allows for you to act here; it states that it is immoral if one visits an immoral act upon an individual based upon the fact that said individual previously committed an immoral act despite the fact that said immoral act being committed will not prevent the already past and non-repeated act previously enacted by the recipient of the new immoral act. For instance, if person X stole person Y's pencil and then, in retaliation, person Y stole person X's pencil then this would be immoral because person X's action (stealing Y's pencil) is already past and cannot be prevented by person Y stealing person X's pencil. However, if a doctor is continuously refusing to correctly advise as to the side-effects of a treatment then a malpractice lawsuit would be justified because it would prevent the recurring immoral act (refusing to advise as to the side-effects).

Ultimately it is up to you, but by strict deontological ethics you're legitimated to act against him if it is to prevent him causing this pain upon others. If, however, after speaking to him you feel that he has not been deliberately negligent and will not continue to act in such a way then suing him would be a selfish act and would violate the two wrongs fallacy.

I hope I've been of some help in this matter, good luck with your final decision.
 

AmayaOnnaOtaku

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Ok here are the FDA listed side effects of Accutane. Personally I cannot see ANY reason to give this drug unless you have tried everything else, and I mean everything.


Contraindications

Pregnancy: Category X. See Boxed CONTRAINDICATIONS AND WARNINGS.
Allergic Reactions

Accutane is contraindicated in patients who are hypersensitive to this medication or to any of its components. Accutane should not be given to patients who are sensitive to parabens, which are used as preservatives in the gelatin capsule (see PRECAUTIONS: Hypersensitivity).
Warnings
Psychiatric Disorders

Accutane may cause depression, psychosis and, rarely, suicidal ideation, suicide attempts, suicide, and aggressive and/or violent behaviors. No mechanism of action has been established for these events (see ADVERSE REACTIONS: Psychiatric). Prescribers should read the brochure, Recognizing Psychiatric Disorders in Adolescents and Young Adults: A Guide for Prescribers of Isotretinoin. Prescribers should be alert to the warning signs of psychiatric disorders to guide patients to receive the help they need. Therefore, prior to initiation of Accutane therapy, patients and family members should be asked about any history of psychiatric disorder, and at each visit during therapy patients should be assessed for symptoms of depression, mood disturbance, psychosis, or aggression to determine if further evaluation may be necessary. Signs and symptoms of depression, as described in the brochure ("Recognizing Psychiatric Disorders in Adolescents and Young Adults"), include sad mood, hopelessness, feelings of guilt, worthlessness or helplessness, loss of pleasure or interest in activities, fatigue, difficulty concentrating, change in sleep pattern, change in weight or appetite, suicidal thoughts or attempts, restlessness, irritability, acting on dangerous impulses, and persistent physical symptoms unresponsive to treatment. Patients should stop Accutane and the patient or a family member should promptly contact their prescriber if the patient develops depression, mood disturbance, psychosis, or aggression, without waiting until the next visit. Discontinuation of Accutane therapy may be insufficient; further evaluation may be necessary. While such monitoring may be helpful, it may not detect all patients at risk. Patients may report mental health problems or family history of psychiatric disorders. These reports should be discussed with the patient and/or the patient's family. A referral to a mental health professional may be necessary. The physician should consider whether Accutane therapy is appropriate in this setting; for some patients the risks may outweigh the benefits of Accutane therapy.
Pseudotumor Cerebri

Accutane use has been associated with a number of cases of pseudotumor cerebri (benign intracranial hypertension), some of which involved concomitant use of tetracyclines. Concomitant treatment with tetracyclines should therefore be avoided. Early signs and symptoms of pseudotumor cerebri include papilledema, headache, nausea and vomiting, and visual disturbances. Patients with these symptoms should be screened for papilledema and, if present, they should be told to discontinue Accutane immediately and be referred to a neurologist for further diagnosis and care (see ADVERSE REACTIONS: Neurological).
Serious Skin Reactions

There have been post-marketing reports of erythema multiforme and severe skin reactions [eg, Stevens-Johnson syndrome (SJS), toxic epidermal necrolysis (TEN)] associated with isotretinoin use. These events may be serious and result in death, life-threatening events, hospitalization, or disability. Patients should be monitored closely for severe skin reactions, and discontinuation of Accutane should be considered if warranted.
Pancreatitis

Acute pancreatitis has been reported in patients with either elevated or normal serum triglyceride levels. In rare instances, fatal hemorrhagic pancreatitis has been reported. Accutane should be stopped if hypertriglyceridemia cannot be controlled at an acceptable level or if symptoms of pancreatitis occur.
Lipids

Elevations of serum triglycerides in excess of 800 mg/dL have been reported in patients treated with Accutane. Marked elevations of serum triglycerides were reported in approximately 25% of patients receiving Accutane in clinical trials. In addition, approximately 15% developed a decrease in high-density lipoproteins and about 7% showed an increase in cholesterol levels. In clinical trials, the effects on triglycerides, HDL, and cholesterol were reversible upon cessation of Accutane therapy. Some patients have been able to reverse triglyceride elevation by reduction in weight, restriction of dietary fat and alcohol, and reduction in dose while continuing Accutane.5

Blood lipid determinations should be performed before Accutane is given and then at intervals until the lipid response to Accutane is established, which usually occurs within 4 weeks. Especially careful consideration must be given to risk/benefit for patients who may be at high risk during Accutane therapy (patients with diabetes, obesity, increased alcohol intake, lipid metabolism disorder or familial history of lipid metabolism disorder). If Accutane therapy is instituted, more frequent checks of serum values for lipids and/or blood sugar are recommended (see PRECAUTIONS: Laboratory Tests).

The cardiovascular consequences of hypertriglyceridemia associated with Accutane are unknown. Animal Studies: In rats given 8 or 32 mg/kg/day of isotretinoin (1.3 to 5.3 times the recommended clinical dose of 1.0 mg/kg/day after normalization for total body surface area) for 18 months or longer, the incidences of focal calcification, fibrosis and inflammation of the myocardium, calcification of coronary, pulmonary and mesenteric arteries, and metastatic calcification of the gastric mucosa were greater than in control rats of similar age. Focal endocardial and myocardial calcifications associated with calcification of the coronary arteries were observed in two dogs after approximately 6 to 7 months of treatment with isotretinoin at a dosage of 60 to 120 mg/kg/day (30 to 60 times the recommended clinical dose of 1.0 mg/kg/day, respectively, after normalization for total body surface area).
Hearing Impairment

Impaired hearing has been reported in patients taking Accutane; in some cases, the hearing impairment has been reported to persist after therapy has been discontinued. Mechanism(s) and causality for this event have not been established. Patients who experience tinnitus or hearing impairment should discontinue Accutane treatment and be referred for specialized care for further evaluation (see ADVERSE REACTIONS: Special Senses).
Hepatotoxicity

Clinical hepatitis considered to be possibly or probably related to Accutane therapy has been reported. Additionally, mild to moderate elevations of liver enzymes have been observed in approximately 15% of individuals treated during clinical trials, some of which normalized with dosage reduction or continued administration of the drug. If normalization does not readily occur or if hepatitis is suspected during treatment with Accutane, the drug should be discontinued and the etiology further investigated.
Inflammatory Bowel Disease

Accutane has been associated with inflammatory bowel disease (including regional ileitis) in patients without a prior history of intestinal disorders. In some instances, symptoms have been reported to persist after Accutane treatment has been stopped. Patients experiencing abdominal pain, rectal bleeding or severe diarrhea should discontinue Accutane immediately (see ADVERSE REACTIONS: Gastrointestinal).
Skeletal
Bone Mineral Density

Effects of multiple courses of Accutane on the developing musculoskeletal system are unknown. There is some evidence that long-term, high-dose, or multiple courses of therapy with isotretinoin have more of an effect than a single course of therapy on the musculoskeletal system. In an open-label clinical trial (N=217) of a single course of therapy with Accutane for severe recalcitrant nodular acne, bone density measurements at several skeletal sites were not significantly decreased (lumbar spine change >-4% and total hip change >-5%) or were increased in the majority of patients. One patient had a decrease in lumbar spine bone mineral density >4% based on unadjusted data. Sixteen (7.9%) patients had decreases in lumbar spine bone mineral density >4%, and all the other patients (92%) did not have significant decreases or had increases (adjusted for body mass index). Nine patients (4.5%) had a decrease in total hip bone mineral density >5% based on unadjusted data. Twenty-one (10.6%) patients had decreases in total hip bone mineral density >5%, and all the other patients (89%) did not have significant decreases or had increases (adjusted for body mass index). Follow-up studies performed in 8 of the patients with decreased bone mineral density for up to 11 months thereafter demonstrated increasing bone density in 5 patients at the lumbar spine, while the other 3 patients had lumbar spine bone density measurements below baseline values. Total hip bone mineral densities remained below baseline (range −1.6% to −7.6%) in 5 of 8 patients (62.5%).

In a separate open-label extension study of 10 patients, ages 13-18 years, who started a second course of Accutane 4 months after the first course, two patients showed a decrease in mean lumbar spine bone mineral density up to 3.25% (see PRECAUTIONS: Pediatric Use).

Spontaneous reports of osteoporosis, osteopenia, bone fractures, and delayed healing of bone fractures have been seen in the Accutane population. While causality to Accutane has not been established, an effect cannot be ruled out. Longer term effects have not been studied. It is important that Accutane be given at the recommended doses for no longer than the recommended duration.
Hyperostosis

A high prevalence of skeletal hyperostosis was noted in clinical trials for disorders of keratinization with a mean dose of 2.24 mg/kg/day. Additionally, skeletal hyperostosis was noted in 6 of 8 patients in a prospective study of disorders of keratinization.6 Minimal skeletal hyperostosis and calcification of ligaments and tendons have also been observed by x-ray in prospective studies of nodular acne patients treated with a single course of therapy at recommended doses. The skeletal effects of multiple Accutane treatment courses for acne are unknown.

In a clinical study of 217 pediatric patients (12 to 17 years) with severe recalcitrant nodular acne, hyperostosis was not observed after 16 to 20 weeks of treatment with approximately 1 mg/kg/day of Accutane given in two divided doses. Hyperostosis may require a longer time frame to appear. The clinical course and significance remain unknown.
Premature Epiphyseal Closure

There are spontaneous reports of premature epiphyseal closure in acne patients receiving recommended doses of Accutane. The effect of multiple courses of Accutane on epiphyseal closure is unknown.
Vision Impairment

Visual problems should be carefully monitored. All Accutane patients experiencing visual difficulties should discontinue Accutane treatment and have an ophthalmological examination (see ADVERSE REACTIONS: Special Senses).

Corneal Opacities

Corneal opacities have occurred in patients receiving Accutane for acne and more frequently when higher drug dosages were used in patients with disorders of keratinization. The corneal opacities that have been observed in clinical trial patients treated with Accutane have either completely resolved or were resolving at follow-up 6 to 7 weeks after discontinuation of the drug (see ADVERSE REACTIONS: Special Senses).

Decreased Night Vision

Decreased night vision has been reported during Accutane therapy and in some instances the event has persisted after therapy was discontinued. Because the onset in some patients was sudden, patients should be advised of this potential problem and warned to be cautious when driving or operating any vehicle at night.
 

SonicWaffle

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AmayaOnnaOtaku said:
Ok here are the FDA listed side effects of Accutane. Personally I cannot see ANY reason to give this drug unless you have tried everything else, and I mean everything.
Sadly this was pretty much the first thing they prescribed for me.

I'm not surehow much consideration we here in the UK give to what the FDA say, but the fact that the product was recalled shortly after I was prescribed it should have rung warning bells for the doctor...
 

Bakaferret

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Seriously, if you have proof that this was a direct cause of your suffering, you should sue. NO ONE should judge you for trying to actually use the courts for what they were intended for. "Frivolous lawsuits" refers to crap like suing over drinking hot coffee and burning your mouth. I think this is a LITTLE more serious than that!
 

Loves2spooge

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SonicWaffle said:
loves2spooge said:
Even though in your case, where you've has a side effect that wasn't stated in the literature, it's still not a guarantee that you could succeed in a lawsuit. The problem is simply human chemistry, and drugs develop new side effects in their lifetime. For all you know, there could be others who have had the same effect as you, but didn't report it to the maker of it. Accutane is also a very potent drug, and the fact you had to sign a waiver before using it attests to the fact that there is risk attached. The signing of the waiver alone could absolve your case; even the shortest sentence in it could send a case crumbling, even if the user happened to die and the family was claiming.

The best thing you could honestly do, is to report to the producer of the drug that the drug has caused UC. They could offer to pay medical bills to resolve the problem, or even forward you to a specialist, but the least they'll do is include it in future waivers that it's a possible side-effect, and you can have the satisfaction in knowing you've made others aware of this issue.
Well, I didn't have to sign a waiver for the drug. At any stage. I signed a waiver later before having a colonoscopy performed, but that was all, and I don't think it applied retroactively to the drugs.

In addition, the producer are well aware of the drug's effects; they've recalled it from usage, have already paid out $33 million in damages related to accutane, and have at least 5,000 pending lawsuits relating to it. So...yeah. They know :p
Ah, well, to be honest, even if you were to take the "greed" approach, chances are you wouldn't make out with much anyway. The 5,000 lawsuits will more than likely be combined; in which case all the lawsuits would be filed under a single affiant, and the cost of the damages would be distributed evenly (perhaps more to those who have been severely affected). In other words, it's like thousands of people winning the lottery at the same time; you're a winner, but you don't get as much as you wanted to begin with.

When cases like these become a combined lawsuit, rather than all the original attourneys appealing, it gets passed on to a lawfirm, and serves more as a profile building case for them.

Now on a personal note, I would honestly rather go poor and sick than help a lawfirm build up its profile. They're the most selfish ruthless people you've ever witnessed when it comes to a high-profile case. For every couple of grand they get for a client in a case like this, they ultimately get much, much more, and they have enough as it is.
 

Tartarga

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I don't think you should sue them unless it turns out that if you had continued to take the drug you would have died, which doesn't seem very likely. Otherwise i'd just let it go.
 
Feb 19, 2010
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Maltyz said:
NAHTZEE said:
pffh said:
Do they state that this can happen in the side effect list? If no then yes sue if yes then:
Talk to a pharmacist (should be free and available in every pharmacy) and/or a doctor and try to figure out why you had the bad reaction and from there decide if you have ground for a lawsuit since usually if it's in the side effects list then you won't win.

And to prevent anything like that from happening again ALWAYS talk to a pharmacist before taking a new drug to see if it functions weirdly with any other drug or ointment or whatever you're already taking.

Also:
NAHTZEE said:
try google some natural treatments not drugs but, dont sue.but take a small dose of the medciation.try find a pro docter like a buddhist one. one of them cured a samll pain in my gut that caused me a lot of diarrhea, gon off my food, and can barely move.
Don't do that, if there is one thing I hate then that's homeopathic "medicine" since that's just bullshit and anytime it "works" it's only because of the placebo effect.
I i didn'y say homeopathic. i said docters taht give orgainic/ natural treatments.
BAAAAAAAAAAN!
what did i do wrong you simply misunderstood my comment
 

Undo

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Mar 26, 2009
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Best wishes and hope it all goes well soon.

But judging from the list Amaya posted, and from the side effects info [http://www.drugs.com/accutane.html] I found (severe diarrhea, rectal bleeding, black, bloody, or tarry stools), I don't think suing will bear much success. And surely not quickly, this could be a battle taking ages to win/lose. But that stuff sure sounds like the nuclear bomb of acne meds!
Taking some legal advice won't hurt but, as always, I'd try and get more than one opinion.


Talking about homeopathics and alternate medicine I can only recommend Tim Minchins Storm [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UB_htqDCP-s]. A bit long, but very true (homeopathic rant part starts around 2min).
 

Jinx_Dragon

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Jan 19, 2009
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Man... it's shitting blood. Shitting blood for Christ sake. What more do you need before you want some pay back on the people who did this to you?

You should sue.
 

TheBYOBGig

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Mar 31, 2010
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Are you seriously telling me your main hang up is the fact that you'd be labeled as someone who sues?
 

Undo

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Jinx_Dragon said:
Man... it's shitting blood. Shitting blood for Christ sake. What more do you need before you want some pay back on the people who did this to you?
Only problem is, that they warn people about that on the side effects list. Sue them... for being right about it?

Going after the doctor that described it might be an option though. As he didn't try any other treatment first and didn't warn about the serious side effects this drug can cause. Which are huge! For acne medicine? In rare cases it can even stop your growth. :O