Poll: Should Link be female in the next Lengend Of Zelda

[JimB]

Wind Waker: new character
Phantom Hourglass: same
Spirit Tracks: same

Er, actually, no. It's been I think three generations since Phantom Hourglass. One of the pirates--Niko, I think? I forget which one--reminisces with the character about the Link he used to know.

Incidentally:

A Link to the Past: new character
Link's Awakening: same character

 

[Agent Cross]

First, there are two things we need to establish before we can move any further along.

1) Role: Hero of Time

2) Character: Link

Can we agree that these two points are consistent with the lore/canon of Legend of Zelda?

I can only agree to this cautiously, since I'm not sure if you're laying the groundwork for further argumentation or are just setting a trap. My agreement comes with the proviso that you and I may have extremely different ideas about what "Hero of Time" and "Link" mean.

(Also, I'm not married to the Hero of Time aspect. My favorite Zelda game is the one where he was the Hero of Winds, not Hero of Time.)

Well of course I'm laying the foundation for an arguement to be made. Unless we have an agreed understanding of terms, it would kind of be pointless. It's the "Hero" aspect. Hero of Wind, Hero of Time, etc...

See above for my post to Treblaine.

 

[Estarc]

I am going to have to say no to this. While I support more female leads in videogames, and would still play, and enjoy, a Zelda game with a female lead, Link is one of the most iconic figures in the entire medium, and changing his gender would just be stupid. Better to just have a new protagonist entirely - surely Link can't be the only competent individual in the entire past and future history of Hyrule?

So, to clarify, I would be happy to play a Zelda game with a female lead, but I am hesitant to endorse changing Link's gender.

 

[Almgandi]

This isnt necessarily supposed to be a response to anything specific but rather you general view on this topic.

At this point is has been rather obvious that you are following a certain agenda which isn't a bad thing but should be stated as subjective opinion. So stop using ingame canon / ingame lore to justify your reasoning , especially if isn't really part of the lore but your personal interpretation of it.

While I could spend the next 30 minutes producing a wall of doom and rage I will keep it short:

While it is true that in canon non of the Links have been the same person it is wrong to assume that multiple characters exist. There is only one Link. Don't think so ? Ask anybody, who knows what Legend of Zelda is, who Link is and the answer will always include "guy"(please for the love of god don't assume that by saving guy I actually meant that in some way a woman wouldn't get the job done) "green costume" "sword" "saves the day" and probably "courage". Each version of Link until this point featured the same character traits and ended up having the same story with some alterations (while "new" Link is in fact older than OoT Link he still is somebody who has almost no experience in what he is about to do and is innocent in some way: being young, spending your life in a secluded area without any knowledge of areas around him,...).


"But there are differences" , well that could be explained mostly by game limitations (i.e. link had black eyes because creating coloured eyes in 8-bit without making humongous characters is impossible, using blond hair would be awkward since most of the backgrounds were rather bright, OoT's engine limited face expressions to dramatic events since in normal scenarios it didn't look very good, Wind Waker Link was more goofy because it did fit with the overall design(cell shading) and probably because the designers were finally able to put some emotions on the guy's face , etc.)

Look I'm not saving that Link couldn't possibly be female (although carring that fat arse big goron sword around would be a pain, unless you also want to neglect the limitations that a female Link, atleast one with a figure most people would want to see, would have ; although at that point you might as well throw the whole gender concept away and just think that everyone in Hyrule is a chick and that they produce babies by having happy thoughts.) but at this point it would just destroy the view that people have on Link and destroy a character who has been with us for more than 20 years

 

[blademan916]

Link is meant to be a blank everyhero the player is meant to project on, so I think it would make sense to do exactly what Pokémon did and let players decide whether to play as a boy or girl, each being different characters with the same role.

 

[Treblaine]

he·ro [heer-oh](heroine is always used for females)

1. A man of distinguished courage or ability, admired for his brave deeds and noble qualities.

2. A person who, in the opinion of others, has heroic qualities or has performed a heroic act and is regarded as a model or ideal: He was a local hero when he saved the drowning child.

3. The principal male character in a story, play, film, etc.

This is where you're running into a major problem. The word "Hero" immediately brings to mind "Male". If someone asked you to name a hero, you wouldn't say. Joan of Arc. The mere mention of the word disassociates "Link" from being female. So it is engrained into our minds to whom exactly Link is.

Once the phrase "Hero of Time" was introduced, all incarnations (not reincarnations, he hardly ever knows about that until he's told anyways) were set in stone to be a male. Which isn't bad. There really doesn't need to be a "Link" though as the title character. There are lots of ways to make a great female lead without destroying what has been established. I've read plenty of interesting posts on different ways to do this. And I can't say that anybody would entirely disagree that bringing a "new" female into the game. It's really a good idea, but changing the legendary "Hero" into another gender just isn't satisfactory.

IMO, gender swapping would just be a meh. It's to cheesy and simple (which might be an even bigger problem). I would prefer a more unique and interesting way. God knows the franchise could use a touch of that.

There are so many different dictionaries and different definition, you can cherry pick whichever one you like.

But you have to admit, no one would consider it a huge faux pas for a heroic woman to be called a "hero". And "heroine" to spite the slightly different spelling is just too close to the name for the narcotic "heroin" that has such negative connotations you can see why hero is being used much more often in a gender neutral sense.

Notice how often comics will refer to "Gallery of Superheroes" which includes many female crime-fighters when semantically it should say "superheroes and Superheroines". In fact my spell check software won't even accept "Superheroine" but accepts "Superhero".

"And I can't say that anybody would entirely disagree that bringing a "new" female into the game."

And what if this new female:
-Is the playable protagonist in a Legend of Zelda game
-went on epic adventures in Hyrule
-Wore a green tunic
-the player chose their character name as "Link"
-is petitioned by Princess Zelda to save Hyrule

Then what? Would that be acceptable? This "adventurer known as Link but isn't actually Link" fulfilling the role of all the other Links?

If you don't know the Zelda lore, it may seem arbitrary. But realise the hero prophecy of rising from the people of Hyrule, that includes girls just as much as boys.

 

[Treblaine]

This isnt necessarily supposed to be a response to anything specific but rather you general view on this topic.

At this point is has been rather obvious that you are following a certain agenda which isn't a bad thing but should be stated as subjective opinion. So stop using ingame canon / ingame lore to justify your reasoning , especially if isn't really part of the lore but your personal interpretation of it.

While I could spend the next 30 minutes producing a wall of doom and rage I will keep it short:

While it is true that in canon non of the Links have been the same person it is wrong to assume that multiple characters exist. There is only one Link. Don't think so ? Ask anybody, who knows what Legend of Zelda is, who Link is and the answer will always include "guy"(please for the love of god don't assume that by saving guy I actually meant that in some way a woman wouldn't get the job done) "green costume" "sword" "saves the day" and probably "courage". Each version of Link until this point featured the same character traits and ended up having the same story with some alterations (while "new" Link is in fact older than OoT Link he still is somebody who has almost no experience in what he is about to do and is innocent in some way: being young, spending your life in a secluded area without any knowledge of areas around him,...).


"But there are differences" , well that could be explained mostly by game limitations (i.e. link had black eyes because creating coloured eyes in 8-bit without making humongous characters is impossible, using blond hair would be awkward since most of the backgrounds were rather bright, OoT's engine limited face expressions to dramatic events since in normal scenarios it didn't look very good, Wind Waker Link was more goofy because it did fit with the overall design(cell shading) and probably because the designers were finally able to put some emotions on the guy's face , etc.)

Look I'm not saving that Link couldn't possibly be female (although carring that fat arse big goron sword around would be a pain, unless you also want to neglect the limitations that a female Link, atleast one with a figure most people would want to see, would have ; although at that point you might as well throw the whole gender concept away and just think that everyone in Hyrule is a chick and that they produce babies by having happy thoughts.) but at this point it would just destroy the view that people have on Link and destroy a character who has been with us for more than 20 years

" So stop using ingame canon / ingame lore to justify your reasoning"

WHAT!!!

So you mean I can't use any relevant points in reasoning!?!?!? you are asking me to deliberately chose to have a bad, irrelevant and unsupported argument?

"it is wrong to assume that multiple characters exist. There is only one Link. "

They have completely different mannerisms, totally contrasting appearance, have no knowledge of each other nor inherited skills. There is nothing to suggest they are the same character. Other than their name and role.

"Don't think so? Ask anybody..."

... who doesn't know anything about what they are talking about. They only have passing vague second hand information about the Zelda games and make ignorant assumptions.

"still is somebody who has almost no experience in what he is about to do and is innocent in some way: being young, spending your life in a secluded area without any knowledge of areas around them,"

Applies 100% a girl as well.

"link had black eyes..."

... in the hand painted art in the manual where there were no such colour limitations.

"but at this point it would just destroy the view that people have on Link"

Yes. A sexist female excluding view.

"and destroy a character"

Destroyed by a female taking up a role that even a prepubescent boy is up for?

The year is 2013 and we are still dealing with sexism like this.

 

[KingGolem]

Sounds like a good idea to me, if it were done properly. Of course, it wouldn't be done properly, or at all. Not only is Nintendo far to set in their ways to do such a thing, it would provoke a very negative reaction from the ignorant masses of America, who would demonize the game for supposedly suggesting that transexuality is okay. I have no problem with it, of course, but having lived in Georgia all my life, I can say with a degree of certainty that there are plenty of moral guardians who would be outraged and boycott it. Furthermore, having a female link, or Zelda as the main character allows for Nintendo to screw up female characters again. Does anyone remember Super Princess Peach? She got magic powers corresponding to her emotions. In other words, their female character defeated enemies and solved environmental puzzles by being overly emotional, which I found in rather poor taste.

However, I, personally, like the idea. It would be a refreshing change of pace in an industry rife with stagnation and a company infamous for repetition, for one thing. The Zelda series is eminently suited to such a change, as well, since reincarnation is at the core of its premise. It could be that one particular cycle of reincarnation could see the Hero of Time reincarnated as a woman, perhaps as the result of some tampering on the part of the Goddesses. Others have suggested a possible justification in being able to infiltrate the Gerudo, but I'm reminded of one instance in the browser based MMO Runescape, an example of which I'm rather fond. One particular quest required the players to slay a rendering of the Russian mythological figure, Koschei the Deathless. Such was theoretically impossible, for Koschei boasted that "No man can defeat me!" The solution was for the player (if male) to visit the NPC who could change the player's appearance and gender for a fee, and then face Koschei as a woman, rendering him vulnerable. Perhaps such a scenario could occur from Ganondorf defeating the previous Link, securing the Triforce, and making a poorly-worded wish.

Oh, and girl Link sounds pretty hot, too. Heh heh. Interesting line of speculation, over all.

 

[JimB]

1. A man of distinguished courage or ability, admired for his brave deeds and noble qualities.

Here's the thing.

For all that I love going to the dictionary to prove my point (and god do I love it; words are so awesome), language is not a static construct, and it never can be. Words are abstract symbols of concepts, only as useful as the level of agreement on their definition and constantly in flux as ideas and symbols evolve. A dictionary offers less proof of what a word objectively means than it does of what most people agree it means.

And this, I think, is an instance in which English needs to evolve. I love English for its ability to describe in exacting detail pretty much anything I can think of, but it does not exist apart from the society that uses it, and I think gendered nouns have outlived any social usefulness they may have ever had. There's a reason people are more likely these days to say "police officer" than "policeman" or "policewoman:" It's because the person's actions are what's supposed to matter here, not which aisle at Walmart the person buys underwear from.

So to me, the idea that we need separate words for heroes and heroines is insupportable, because I don't get where that need comes from and I can't think of any noble end it serves (I can think of a lot of low ends, but no noble ones). It is hyperspecific to the point of uselessness to have a word that means, "A person possessed of distinguishes courage or ability, noble qualities, and a pair of swinging testes."

I do not know of any worthwhile or responsible reason why "Hero of Time" is required to mean "man who is worthy of the Triforce of Courage" and not "person who is worthy of the Triforce of Courage."

Also this:

2. A person who, in the opinion of others, has heroic qualities or has performed a heroic act and is regarded as a model or ideal: He was a local hero when he saved the drowning child.

 

[otakon17]

Having Zelda as a proper protagonist in a GOOD Legend of Zelda game? Yes please. Having Link suddenly be a woman? Not so much, just wouldn't be the same really. The three central figures of the LoZ series have always been Gannon, Zelda and Link. And despite the some 25 years since their creation, despite the platform changes they have always been the same characters. Changing them now wouldn't serve much purpose I don't think.

 

[Almgandi]

This isnt necessarily supposed to be a response to anything specific but rather you general view on this topic.

At this point is has been rather obvious that you are following a certain agenda which isn't a bad thing but should be stated as subjective opinion. So stop using ingame canon / ingame lore to justify your reasoning , especially if isn't really part of the lore but your personal interpretation of it.

While I could spend the next 30 minutes producing a wall of doom and rage I will keep it short:

While it is true that in canon non of the Links have been the same person it is wrong to assume that multiple characters exist. There is only one Link. Don't think so ? Ask anybody, who knows what Legend of Zelda is, who Link is and the answer will always include "guy"(please for the love of god don't assume that by saving guy I actually meant that in some way a woman wouldn't get the job done) "green costume" "sword" "saves the day" and probably "courage". Each version of Link until this point featured the same character traits and ended up having the same story with some alterations (while "new" Link is in fact older than OoT Link he still is somebody who has almost no experience in what he is about to do and is innocent in some way: being young, spending your life in a secluded area without any knowledge of areas around him,...).


"But there are differences" , well that could be explained mostly by game limitations (i.e. link had black eyes because creating coloured eyes in 8-bit without making humongous characters is impossible, using blond hair would be awkward since most of the backgrounds were rather bright, OoT's engine limited face expressions to dramatic events since in normal scenarios it didn't look very good, Wind Waker Link was more goofy because it did fit with the overall design(cell shading) and probably because the designers were finally able to put some emotions on the guy's face , etc.)

Look I'm not saving that Link couldn't possibly be female (although carring that fat arse big goron sword around would be a pain, unless you also want to neglect the limitations that a female Link, atleast one with a figure most people would want to see, would have ; although at that point you might as well throw the whole gender concept away and just think that everyone in Hyrule is a chick and that they produce babies by having happy thoughts.) but at this point it would just destroy the view that people have on Link and destroy a character who has been with us for more than 20 years

" So stop using ingame canon / ingame lore to justify your reasoning"

WHAT!!!

So you mean I can't use any relevant points in reasoning!?!?!? you are asking me to deliberately chose to have a bad, irrelevant and unsupported argument?

"it is wrong to assume that multiple characters exist. There is only one Link. "

They have completely different mannerisms, totally contrasting appearance, have no knowledge of each other nor inherited skills. There is nothing to suggest they are the same character. Other than their name and role.

"Don't think so? Ask anybody..."

... who doesn't know anything about what they are talking about. They only have passing vague second hand information about the Zelda games and make ignorant assumptions.

"still is somebody who has almost no experience in what he is about to do and is innocent in some way: being young, spending your life in a secluded area without any knowledge of areas around them,"

Applies 100% a girl as well.

"link had black eyes..."

... in the hand painted art in the manual where there were no such colour limitations.

"but at this point it would just destroy the view that people have on Link"

Yes. A sexist female excluding view.

"and destroy a character"

Destroyed by a female taking up a role that even a prepubescent boy is up for?

The year is 2013 and we are still dealing with sexism like this.

Well guess I learnt my lesson for today: don't deal with crazy people.

1)I said stop using ingame canon that doesn't exist. It has never been stated that Link could totally be a chick. It was your interpretation since it wasn't stated otherwise(besides the fact that nobody knows how Legend of Zelda's version of reincarnation works )

2) Yeah they are totally not supposed to be the same person. Which is also why they all have the same name dress the same way grunt the same way and save the world the same way

3) Thanks for not even bothering to copy the whole sentence "Ask anybody, who knows what Legend of Zelda is" ergo implying that they have to atleast have some knowledge about the game

4)Well I probably should have quoted you on that. Just posted it to invalidate the whole e "oh Link is an adult now, it is a completely different story" thing you had going

5)well duhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh. You do realise that they created it to resemble the final ingame version of Link?

6) No it is not up to me but the producer of the game and guess what? he seems to like his elf hero with a dick

7)Oh ok. In that case let's make a Metroid game with Samus as a dude "oh but you cant do that". Why not? Just use some bullshit plot device to send her into a tupsy turvy dimension in which Ridley is an opera singer and Samus is a guy. And while we are at it just give Mario some tits . oh what is that I can't do that either? Hell Mario has been in so many different dimensions one of them just has to have a female version of it in their somewhere

 

[Dead_Man]

Wait, you telling me Link ISN'T female?!?!?!?!? OH GOD WHAT HAVE I DONE?!?!?!?!??!?

 

[Agent Cross]

SNIP

Naming a character is kind of arbitrary. I can name the character "Pet Rock", doesn't mean that character is an actual pet rock. Or better yet, Zelda sets off to save Princess Zelda, from the evil Zelda, with the aid of the mysterious Zelda. They're all 6 year old kids that have shoulder length hair and wear a green tunic. The last one left alive earns the title of Link. /sarcasm

You're hung up on this singular idea of eliminating an established character so it can be substituted for a new one. Why do that?

What then are you asking for? You seem to know some of the lore of LoZ, and that would mean you played the games. Did you not like them or something?

I already stated that I have no problem with a female lead. I really don't care. It's just not interesting to do it in such a simple way as you have suggested. It's been stated throughout this thread.

I was asking how would you like it to be done. Which you say replace "X" with "Y". Is that the extent of it?

 

[Anchupom]

I'd vote no opinion. It doesn't matter to me if Link is a lady, boy, or ladyboy.

 

[Anchupom]

Wait, you telling me Link ISN'T female?!?!?!?!? OH GOD WHAT HAVE I DONE?!?!?!?!??!?

It's only gay if you want it to be. We don't judge here on the internet.

...Okay, we do, but we're hypocrites for it.

 

[Treblaine]

Well guess I learnt my lesson for today: don't deal with crazy people.

1)I said stop using ingame canon that doesn't exist. It has never been stated that Link could totally be a chick. It was your interpretation since it wasn't stated otherwise(besides the fact that nobody knows how Legend of Zelda's version of reincarnation works )

2) Yeah they are totally not supposed to be the same person. Which is also why they all have the same name dress the same way grunt the same way and save the world the same way

3) Thanks for not even bothering to copy the whole sentence "Ask anybody, who knows what Legend of Zelda is" ergo implying that they have to atleast have some knowledge about the game

4)Well I probably should have quoted you on that. Just posted it to invalidate the whole e "oh Link is an adult now, it is a completely different story" thing you had going

5)well duhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh. You do realise that they created it to resemble the final ingame version of Link?

6) No it is not up to me but the producer of the game and guess what? he seems to like his elf hero with a dick

7)Oh ok. In that case let's make a Metroid game with Samus as a dude "oh but you cant do that". Why not? Just use some bullshit plot device to send her into a tupsy turvy dimension in which Ridley is an opera singer and Samus is a guy. And while we are at it just give Mario some tits . oh what is that I can't do that either? Hell Mario has been in so many different dimensions one of them just has to have a female version of it in their somewhere

1) it is established. I have explained this. And anyway, it's not about proving that is is allowed, it's showing that the game's lore does not forbid a female protagonist in a Zelda game. And I have shown that by how many of the Link Protagonists are totally unrelated and the essential quality is courage... not being born with a penis.

2)"same name" you (the player_ can choose whatever name you like, people can have the same name but be different people.
Wind Waker established that it's tradition for adventurers to wear a green tunic, and all the tunics are of different design. How is dressing in the same colour and vague style possibly related to them being same individual?!?!?
They save Hyrule in many different ways and they certainly sound different.

3)People know what Legend of Zelda "is" but not know anything about it. I know what Final Fantasy 7 is, but I don't know details of its lore. It's clear people do have knowledge of the game but are IGNORANT ON VITAL POINTS! The number of people who have posted here assuming Link is one individual in an overarching storyline across the games.

4), 5) and 6) i don't know what part you are replying to

7) Samus is ONE individual character in ONE overarching story.

Link is NOT one character.

It's not an equal comparison.

"Just use some bullshit plot device to send her into a tupsy turvy dimension in which Ridley is an opera singer and Samus is a guy."

You're just being sexist if you think it's equatable to a "tupsy turvy dimension" if a girl goes on an adventure to save Hyrule.

 

[Flaery]

I'd be okay with seeing it, but I don't believe it to be necessary.

 

[Treblaine]

SNIP

You're hung up on this singular idea of eliminating an established character so it can be substituted for a new one. Why do that?

Nintendo did that.

They made it so that the Protagonist in OoT, WW and TP are EXPLICITELY unrelated and totally separate individuals, THEY did in fact: "eliminate an established character so it can be substituted for a new one". But you didn't care as long as they were all still male but distinct in almost every other way.

Did you not like them or something?

It's a great start. But as the prophecy goes on with more an more males chosen as heroes It'll become increasingly apparent that there is a sexist pattern in place which undermines the egalitarian nobility of the hero prophecy.

I already stated that I have no problem with a female lead. I really don't care. It's just not interesting to do it in such a simple way as you have suggested. It's been stated throughout this thread.

I was asking how would you like it to be done. Which you say replace "X" with "Y". Is that the extent of it?

Yes. Because of the lore... UUUURGHHH! How many times will I have to explain it.

Courage is what counts. A quality of character. Not birth, like Zelda's royal inheritance, not by the advantage of being born with a penis.

The elders know when a young adventurer who may be any one of the citizens of Hyrule has the courage and morals to take up a quest, they gift him with powers knowing he will be brave enough to use them and moral enough to use them for the good of Hyrule.

That and smashing people's pots to steal rupees...

 

[Oinodaemon]

]I'd actually liked to see a Zelda game with Zelda as the main character. She has proven herself to be a capable fighter in several of the games, at least more so than someone like Princess Peach. Instead of items she could gain different spells to get around dungeons and solve puzzles. Just as Link has to face several trials to prove that he's a true hero, She should also be facing several trials to prove herself as well, or perhaps a more traditional setting where Link's the one in trouble and Zelda has to save him instead. I think this would be more of a breath of fresh air than just simply genderbending Link.

I actually really like this idea. Though the idea of woman Link saving Prince Zelda from the Evil Sorcerous Ganon is pretty hilarious.

 

[Agent Cross]

SNIP

I can agree with the word needing to evolve, but that's another discussion. The simple issue is, this is a 25 year old franchise. So when the game says, "Our legendary hero appears..." one would think Link. You might not like it, I might not, but that's how it is.

So are simply wishing to erase an established character or would you rather introduce a new female lead? I support the latter. The former is just too boring. I think it would be great to expand on the lore, but replacing one character for another... Is just to simple. How would you prefer to go about making such a change? If you mind explaing.

I really like the idea of Zelda stepping into the limelight.