Poll: Should Western forces be in Afghanistan?
- Thread starter Lord Kloo
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O_O WHAT ARE YOU SMOKING?!Drakane said:
Cuba is in great shape for several reason, one, their primary export is DOCTORS, two, they have a stable government that governs its people effectively without destroying human rights, and its enjoying a period of great wealth due to their exporting of doctors in exchange for oil money from nearby nations.
The question really has no value because I am not given enough information to make a judgment.
Do I think that western forces could be used to effectively combat various terrorist elements in Afghanistan? Certainly. Do I think that they are, at this very moment, doing more than making a valiant but futile effort? Nope.
Do I think that western forces could be used to effectively combat various terrorist elements in Afghanistan? Certainly. Do I think that they are, at this very moment, doing more than making a valiant but futile effort? Nope.
Yet in staying we will ensure the death of untold masses who offered no threat to the "Western World". We will continue to destabilize Pakistan (a country armed with nuclear weapons). We will continue to lose soldiers. With our current course, the only thing that can be achieved is a bloody stalemate. What's more, from a historical standpoint, the nation of Afghanistan has never been conquered in recorded history.Rainboq said:
Can the war be "won"? Sure, in the theoretical sense. But no party involved on the western side will be willing to fight the sort of battles necessary to achieve total victory on the battlefield.
Maybe I just accept the crap fed to me.. but I am pretty sure not so pleasant things happened under Fidel Castro's regime of Cuba... a person the American gov't put in place.Rainboq said:
it is also late I have drank much so my overall memory of my history class 10+ yrs ago might be fragged.
I'd say we shouldn't have gone in originally, or we should've pulled out early on.
We're in too deep now, and if we leave now, it's likely that things would collapse.
We're in too deep now, and if we leave now, it's likely that things would collapse.
Fun facts about the current war in the Middle East, without News Channel Bullshit or politcal Correctness:
1. The Afghans/Iraqis are, in three word, technically skilled pathetic. They are unable to maintain the majority of their electrical, hydro, and sewage system without foreign assistance in both currency aid and skilled worker aid.
2. The Afgahns/Iraqis have, since the beginning of the war, been sabotaging their own infrastructures, including those stated above. In addition, many public/government facilities built by the US/Coalition forces for the use of the civilians in the region (Schools, etc) have fallen into disuse and disrepair by the locals, due to a lack of interest in maintaining such services.
3. Afgahns/Iraqis are, for the most part, self centered, and have a work ethic that makes 15 year old fry cooks look motivated.
4. Afgahns/Iraqis are incapable of maintaining a standard of living that would be acceptable to most 1st World countries, and to expect them to is folly.
All that being said, I'm not sure what we should do. On one hand, we owe it to the people to try and fix what was broken. On the other, they broke half of that crap on their own, and have little interest in fixing anything themselves.
NOTE: All these observations come from someone who has BEEN to Iraq, and has had detailed conversations and debates with those who have been in both countries. They are not accurate to all citizens of the territoies (Notably the Kurds), but are generally accurate.
And since your all pissed at me anyway, I'll leave you with this.
1. The Afghans/Iraqis are, in three word, technically skilled pathetic. They are unable to maintain the majority of their electrical, hydro, and sewage system without foreign assistance in both currency aid and skilled worker aid.
2. The Afgahns/Iraqis have, since the beginning of the war, been sabotaging their own infrastructures, including those stated above. In addition, many public/government facilities built by the US/Coalition forces for the use of the civilians in the region (Schools, etc) have fallen into disuse and disrepair by the locals, due to a lack of interest in maintaining such services.
3. Afgahns/Iraqis are, for the most part, self centered, and have a work ethic that makes 15 year old fry cooks look motivated.
4. Afgahns/Iraqis are incapable of maintaining a standard of living that would be acceptable to most 1st World countries, and to expect them to is folly.
All that being said, I'm not sure what we should do. On one hand, we owe it to the people to try and fix what was broken. On the other, they broke half of that crap on their own, and have little interest in fixing anything themselves.
NOTE: All these observations come from someone who has BEEN to Iraq, and has had detailed conversations and debates with those who have been in both countries. They are not accurate to all citizens of the territoies (Notably the Kurds), but are generally accurate.
And since your all pissed at me anyway, I'll leave you with this.
GEN Patton said:
Our troops should be in Afghanistan, but the Taliban is not the problem we should be addressing. We should be in Afghanistan to get rid of bin Laden (although he has trolled the west massively for the last 15 years), and to get rid of the opium fields (that supply 80% of the world's heroin). Those are the main concerns, or should be.
I'm not sure if they should have gone in in the first place, but they're there now. The can of worms is open, and until the country can hold itself together, NATO has to stay regardless of the cost.
Really by the definition of terrorism Al Queda has already won a hundred fold. So, meh, we lose no matter what. I just think a war over there keeps us from having a war amongst ourselves at the current rate, with all the bigotry and idiotic views everyone on both sides seem to have.
Basically, my thoughts can be summed up as, we should never have gone in the first place, but now that we are there (UK here) we need to stay there and see the job through to the end, otherwise we're just going to do even more damage by leaving than if we'd stayed out originally. So I'm against the war overall, but in this situation I feel it's much more prudent and useful to stay there for now.
We had no business being there in the first place. Just like we had no business invading Iraq. The whole Bin Laden search thing has pretty well been forgotten anyways. If we were actually wanting to get him, we would have. It has been almost a decade, time to cut our losses and stop wasting our time, money, and dudes.
At this point....No.
Right now, the biggest recruiting symbol for the Al-Quaida is the American soldier. Our presence there just continues to drive people who resent foreign intervention for reasons both legitimate and not-so-legitimate over to the Al-Quaida.
A lot of the arguments above me can be boiled down to "If we leave, the country will collapse". Perhaps but all that means is that we will be there for the rest of eternity. At some point, we need to cut them off and let them stand or fall on their own. I think we're past that point.
Plus, on a more self-centered note, our own country is falling apart at the seams. The U.S. needs to worry about putting it's own house in order as opposed to maintaining everyone else's house.
Right now, the biggest recruiting symbol for the Al-Quaida is the American soldier. Our presence there just continues to drive people who resent foreign intervention for reasons both legitimate and not-so-legitimate over to the Al-Quaida.
A lot of the arguments above me can be boiled down to "If we leave, the country will collapse". Perhaps but all that means is that we will be there for the rest of eternity. At some point, we need to cut them off and let them stand or fall on their own. I think we're past that point.
Plus, on a more self-centered note, our own country is falling apart at the seams. The U.S. needs to worry about putting it's own house in order as opposed to maintaining everyone else's house.
I dislike how the poll options were arranged. It's natural for me to assume they should be in this order:
Yes.
No.
Other.
But on topic I think they should be. I wont argue we should never have gone in. But now that we have it's time to finish the job. If we leave now the extraordinarily large assets we've wasted there will have been for nothing.
The country will devolve into a state much similar to countries in the middle of Africa.
I'm just saying, it's too late to pull out.
Yes.
No.
Other.
But on topic I think they should be. I wont argue we should never have gone in. But now that we have it's time to finish the job. If we leave now the extraordinarily large assets we've wasted there will have been for nothing.
The country will devolve into a state much similar to countries in the middle of Africa.
I'm just saying, it's too late to pull out.