Poll: So I'm still not convinced that Brave New World is a dystopia...

[Krayorik]

So in my English class we recently finished Brave New World, and as I was reading it I couldn't shake this nagging feeling that this place didn't seem all that shitty. I mean, sure people worked all day, then came home, took drugs, saw movies and had sex but... isn't that what most people these days do anyway? The only thing that kept me disliking the place throughout was the whole bit about science being held back, but then when they got to the part about shipping deviants off to islands to form small communities, I was sold on this world. I looked up why this was supposed to be a dystopia, but all I could find was some vague things about "people not having dignity anymore", and "art and science being held back". In regards to the first one, that's EXTREMELY subjective, depending on your culture and time period. Just look at the problems that the middle east has with our culture, or the hippies advocating a return to nature. Secondly, as far as the whole science and art thing goes, it seems like this island system works pretty well. If I were an artist or scientist, I would certainly rather be there than to be in our present day society, being held back by small minds with nothing better to do than criticize artists and storytellers for not thinking of the children, or protest proven facts. So what do you guys think? Is Brave New World a dystopia? Would you want to live there?

 

[JesterRaiin]

isn't that what most people these days do anyway?

I guess you uncovered truth : we too live in Dystopian reality.

 

[Sonicron]

If I were an Alpha or Beta citizen in that society and didn't know the benefits of not being a drugged-up workaholic sexpuppet, I sure as hell wouldn't mind living that life. Brave New World looks horrifying from the outside looking in, but I bet if you're on the inside looking out, the picture will likely be reversed by about 180 degrees.

Long story short, no, I wouldn't want to live in that society, but if I were born into it and didn't know any different, I guess it'd be fine.

 

[Krayorik]

If I were an Alpha or Beta citizen in that society and didn't know the benefits of not being a drugged-up workaholic sexpuppet, I sure as hell wouldn't mind living that life.

Well if you were a gamma, delta or epsilon you probably wouldn't mind either , cause, you know. Hypnopaedia and all that.

 

[Lev The Red]

i'm glad i'm not the only one who thinks that. i don't see how a society almost completely devoid of conflict, that employs virtually all of its citizenry, that doesn't discriminate based on ethnicity, and, most importantly, has happy people can be considered dystopian.

 

[A Weary Exile]

No it didn't seem like a dystopia to me either. The explanations I find are usually along the lines of "Suffering is a part of human existence." or some such nonsense. If I ever got bored with it (Which is very likely. Too much of a good thing can get stale, plus there's the restrictions on art and science.) I could always get myself shipped off to one of those islands and live a relatively normal existence.

This means that you are like Cypher, in the Matrix.

Always thought he was right, but they have to pitch him as the villain for the sake of the movie. What do the humans win when they defeat the machines? A burned-out planet with no vegatation or animals? (Also brings the question of how they are able to breathe) Why not just stay in the Matrix where everything is *waaaaaaay* better and you'll never know the difference? Why live an existence rife with suffering when you have a much better one at your disposal?

If we're going by the Animatrix: it's actually the humans' fault the Earth is the way it is and that the machines put them in the Matrix in the first place.

 

[Drake666]

It's the "you've been created to be in a specific niche" that's kinda harsh.
he artist or scientist are exception. Guys/girls who have probably been badly engineered... so, basically, errors. Worst, we don't see that island... perhaps it's just a big incinerator...

 

[Drake666]

Worst, the human race won't try to race to the star, meet other sentient races, etc. We're doomed to live the same life has our ancestor... forever... no change, no evolution of idea, no interesting discussion, no SCIENCE, no ART... that's REALLY bad...

 

[Lilani]

I'm not so sure it was supposed to be a utopia, considering the guy committed suicide over how crazy the place was.

Anyway, I would consider any society where naturally free-thinking and rebellious beings are told exactly who they are, what they do, and another being on their level determines when they die to be a dystopia.

 

[Aiden_the-Joker1]

Is that not the whole point of the book? To make you question whether or not this is all that bad? Maybe I am looking at it wrong.

 

[Sonicron]

If I were an Alpha or Beta citizen in that society and didn't know the benefits of not being a drugged-up workaholic sexpuppet, I sure as hell wouldn't mind living that life.

Well if you were a gamma, delta or epsilon you probably wouldn't mind either , cause, you know. Hypnopaedia and all that.

Point taken - but hey, why not aim for the top? You know, considering it's all a fantasy anyway. ^^

 

[isometry]

Growth and reproduction are qualities of plants, and sensation is a quality of animals, so art, science, and other forms of rational thought are the unique function of human beings. This is why people need these things to have a good life.

This is a paraphrase of the main idea in Aristotle's "On the Soul", book 2:

http://classics.mit.edu/Aristotle/soul.2.ii.html

 

[Cowabungaa]

If we're going by the Animatrix: it's actually the humans' fault the Earth is the way it is and that the machines put them in the Matrix in the first place.

Their great-great-grandmothers and fathers, yes, so you can't really blame those alive now.

Why live an existence rife with suffering when you have a much better one at your disposal?

Because you'd be living a fake existence, in reality you'd be a thing, a disposable product. With freedom comes the chance to make it better, not only for yourself, but for the generations after you. Some people have ideals and stuff.

 

[Alssadar]

It has a good basic of ideals of freedom, some level of morality and essentials for maintaining peace amongst the people, an idea which is surely never to occur in real life without these circumstances coming about.
But, nonetheless, I value my liberties and I'd rather take a gram, rather then a damn.
Ford bless you all.

 

[BishopOfBattle]

You'll have to forgive me if I'm sketchy on some details, I haven't read Brave New World in over a decade, but I think the primary thing you have to remember is that the book was written in 1931. By the standards of the thirties, rampant drug usage and frivolous sex and orgies with dozens of parties was significantly more taboo than it is today.

Also, as Believer258 points out:

I guess if you're an alpha or a beta, someone who looks good and lives comfortably and fucks people like a damn bunny rabbit, then life is pretty awesome. But that's the top of the pile; most people would be on the bottom with no way to go up.

No one says a Dystopian world has to blow for everybody. In fact, the point is that, for some portion of society (especially the elite, 1%ers} things are actually quite swell. Life is good and you get to manipulate society to serve your whims and desires. It's everybody else who life sucks for. In the case of Brave New World those Lower Caste individuals are conditioned to love their work and lot in life, but as the outside viewer, we can generally agree that being brainwashed, completely lacking in individuality, assigned duties without any say, no opportunities to do better for ourselves, improve our lot in life, etc. would blow pretty hard.

Dystopia: An imaginary place where people lead dehumanized and often fearful lives.

As far as the definition of a dystopian world goes, people leading dehumanized lives seems to fit quite accurately, even if you ignore the shift in values from the 1930s to today.

 

[cgentero]

The only problem is social stratification, but using robots instead of intentionally retarded people would not only be moral but more efficient too.

 

[Suicidejim]

Well, the main society of BNW (not including the whole 'island' business) is certainly flawed in many ways, though those flaws are less obvious than, say, 1984 or Bioshock. The main issue I have with the society is the huge restrictions placed on art and science. It seems instead that the people are content to live a rather simplistic and empty lifestyle; eat, fuck, take drugs, sleep, repeat. Indeed, without that miracle drug soma, it seems like the whole society would crumble due to lack of any true fulfilment, but the influence of soma makes the people more like cattle, content to live each day the same. The whole issue of indoctrination, and how each person is almost manufactured rather than allowed to develop in their own unique way, is also an issue. There isn't so much a problem of having one's free will taken away, as there is that they never really had any to begin with. It isn't a dystopia of the kind we commonly imagine, more of an intellectual and creative dystopia. Now, of course, the islands are, in theory, a viable solution to this problem, but I have a few issues with that too. Firstly, that no matter how wonderful and amazing life is on these islands, that doesn't make the main society any better. They are separate societies. Secondly, we aren't actually given much of a glimpse into what these islands are truly like. They themselves may have become dystopias, or they may not be all we are told they are. They are too much of an unknown quantity for us to make a judgement upon them as a solution.

Of course, when the book was first written, I can understand how, from society's viewpoint and attitudes at that time, even just the concepts of growing humans artificially, the removal of love and relationships in favour of *gasp* casual non-committal sex, or all the drug-taking could all give the book a much more dystopic vibe than it has in today's society (to some degree, obviously there's still a lot of stigma attached to those today too). Then, of course, you raise the good point of how many people in the real world are content to live lives not too far removed from those seen in BNW, which is true, and I can't think of a decent counterpoint to that one, since I agree completely.

Personally, I don't think of Brave New World as much of a dystopia, and certainly if I had my choice of fictional dystopias I'd have already booked my ticket there, but I can understand many of the flaws inherent in the society. If I'd been raised there, I know I'd have no issue with it, but as the person I am now, an outsider, I think I would be deeply uncomfortable living there (again, with the possible exception of the islands).

 

[JoJo]

Personally I think the point that the author was trying to make was that while the people in BNW had everything they could want materialistically, they were spiritually empty in a sense. Their lives had no meaning other than simple pleasure, all deeper things like love and art forbidden. What the Savage learns at the end of the story is that we humans need the freedom to suffer to lead a fulfilling life. I think it would be a terrible world to live in since most people wouldn't even realise what they were missing, but it's up to everyone to interpret the story in their own way.