Poll: So I'm still not convinced that Brave New World is a dystopia...

[Programmed_For_Damage]

Yes.

Though I think that's part of the point.

Firstly, it's not a dystopia, it's a deconstruction of the idea of Utopia, a society where everyone is happy and content.

Secondly, the book isn't just a "bad future", it's a satire in the very old tradition of using science fiction as satire (which is still alive today).

* Fordism is an exaggerated parody of what we would now term charismatic Christianity or the Pentecostal movement.

* The "feelies" are a parody of Hollywood films. Believe it or not, 1930s Hollywood was often accused of pandering to its audience and of generally being mindless (in many ways it actually probably was more so than today).

* The 'alpha', 'beta', 'gamma' caste system is a rebuke of Eugenics, particularly its application to the British class system. Eugenics was still a very popular idea in the 1930s.

* The use of the zipper and "everyone belongs to everyone" is a parody of the idea of "casual" consensual sex, which first appeared in the 1920s and was a massive moral panic at the time Huxley was writing.

The basic criticism is that all "meaning" in the society has been replaced by sensation. People worship, but they're not worshipping anything, they're worshipping for the sense of religious ecstacy. People go to feelies, but they're not watching complex drama or Shakespeare, they're going for the sex scenes. People have sex not because they choose or because they feel for each other, but because their society renders them incapable of denying consent. Ultimately, people feel pleasure all the time so it has no meaning, there is nothing special about it, they have no suffering or pain to contrast it against.

People are so desensitised from meaning that when the savage descends into madness at the end and attacks Lenina (who for the first time in her life is crying real tears) with a whip, people cheer him on because they're no longer capable of understanding suffering as anything other than a voyeuristic spectacle.

I think that's pretty dystopian, it's effectively a world in which you kill time until you die, and the greatest joy in life is being as numb from it as possible.

You don't have to agree with everything, it's a mercilessly puritan book by today's standards, but I think if you'd honestly like to live in that society (or aren't a little disgusted that in some ways you already do) I would start to worry a little.

That is the best analysis I've ever read. And your avatar is spectacular. Go EWJ.

 

[Krayorik]

Just because you don't mind living in the dystopia doesn't mean that it isn't a dystopia.

In Brave New World, there is no such thing as choice. Not really. Your path is set from the moment you're conceived. You cannot change class. You cannot live another life. All your wants and fears are forged by people who merely want to preserve an order that they are on top of, and you cannot question that. You are forced to live a life that is not your own for the purpose of keeping you happy. Your essential freedoms are nonexistent. You are created to serve and consume, you are not a person but a gear, a gear used to drive a machine that continues for the sake of ensuring that it's people stay safe, but forces them to sacrifice all of their most important freedoms for the sake of continued happiness. It's a social equilibrium that can only exist so long as people are are prevented from ever having the freedom to choose something else. It's a world in which all the oppression is done in your infancy, and from that point on our very nature will do the oppressing for you.

Just because you're happy doesn't mean it's OK.

Remember that anone who does not naturally fit in with this society is forcibly ostracised and shunned. They are sent to a place which seems nice, sure, but they and their company are essentially excluded from society for being, at their very core, human. And in order for the seemingly pleasurable society to exist, there can be no real, genuine humanity.

To put a finer point on it, the world of the novel throws the baby out with the bathwater. It destroys what we are to ensure we remain content. It destroys one of the most important things
about us in order to preserve that which isn't.

A contented citizen in that world isn't really a contented citizen at all. That's why I used that old cliche of comparing it to a machine - it IS a machine, but one that forces people to shed the most important thing about themselves for the sake of preserving the remains, unless they have the benefit of being on the top. It is order that only exists to perpetuate itself.

I see what you're saying, but I still don't think that BNW is a dystopia, because in my mind dystopias toss all progress out the window. So while society at large isn't progressing, all indications in the book are that on the islands strides are being taken and after typing all of this out I can see why people are recommending Rapture for my next vacation spot.

Also, part of the problem that I have with the argument that it removes people's dignity is that dignity has had different definitions throughout history. Is eating other people wrong? Well that depends on whether or not their part of your tribe. Is it wrong to sit around all day doing nothing? Well if you're from medieval Europe, certainly. Anyone looking at another culture would always think that that culture is barbaric.

Also remember EVERY dystopia is someone's utopia.

That's an excellent point. Hadn't thought of that before.

From what I remember of Brave New World, I got the impression that Huxley's future world was built on naive principles. The social class system is based on hard work balanced by regulated hedonism, but he doesn't realise that once you make luxury a standard, people will stop considering it a luxury and take it for granted. You might argue that being in daily contact with the lower classes would be an apt reminder of privelege, but since there's no mobility between the social strata it's an empty threat. Besides, surely people who take drugs on a daiy basis would need ever-increasing doses to maintain the effect, until it reached a fatal dose?

That, and the science is a bit dubious these days. The description of cloning is a fascinating and ingenius workaround considering DNA wasn't discovered at the time of writing, but a lot of the rest seems simplistic. In particular, "LOL HELICOPTERS" every other page.

A lot of Huxley's imagined society seems to exist simply for the purpose of turning the social norms of the day on their head. Read today, a lot of the decribed hedonism seems positively tame, and loses much of the original impact.

Yeah, the whole thing is a little on the naive side. Particularly the islands bit that I keep harping on. A real government would probably just use those wondrous dimensional transport machines that you can pick up at any of your favorite local fire arms distributor, as they're probably a lot cheaper than sending a bunch of brilliant, potentially dangerous people to a secluded place where they can scheme in peace.

The idea of being happy all the time is fine but the people aren't really happy though, they have no choice in anything they do and as said before they are just killing time until they die, sure everyone tells you that you are the best and should be happy and gives you drugs to control you but without choice where is the meaning or anything at al.

Oh and we'd all likely be Gammas, Deltas and Epsilons.

Well "we" wouldn't be anything. We wouldn't exist, remember?

 

[Mr.Mattress]

Being forced to do drugs and Hump all the time looses it's appeal after a while, don't you think? Plus, I don't really wanna do Drugs and I would feel uncomfortable doing it with more then one person. And for all I know, those "islands" could really be Concentration Camps or they could be Deserted with 1 person on 1 Island (I know that's a bit hard to think of, but by that time, I am thinking that's how it is).

That society would be terrible to live in; and Sadly, society is trying to make us go that way (Thank Goodness Governments don't want to go that way. Instead, they wanna go Orwellian, which is just as bad).

 

[Helmholtz Watson]

well as long as I was an Alpha, I would be happy.

 

[capper42]

The sign of a great book is when not everyone agrees with what is being said. I have never read Brave New World however, although I'd like to. The only Huxley I've ever read is The Doors of Perception.

 

[Chase Yojimbo]

Yes, "Brave New World" is a Dystopia ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dystopia ) along with "1984". Both of these novels were so frightening for the intellectual part of the world (1984 only got more attention because people didn't see the bad in Brave New World. Theory as to why the masses didn't grasp the concept) that it sparked a lot of controversy. Truthfully though, out of the two, Brave New World is the worse by far. To no longer be an individual, and have others basically tell you what to do for all of your life with no choice in the matter unless you were born special 'literally'; to never love someone, and to never be loved; no parents, brothers, or sisters; and the only friends you have are friends who use you.

The concept frightens me to the very core. The only people who would want this are people who would abuse it (Corporations, billionaires, etc), or would rather not think for themselves because they don't know what to do (In a sense, the perfect world for Tools and Failures). No one should want this type of society, unless they wish to lose all meaning that it is to be an individual... The sadder part? The western world already is like this, and that people is what frightens me most of all.

Thankfully, there are people out there who actually want a brain, to be special their own screwed up way. That gives me some hope at least, and the only way I think the Western World and much of the world will get out of this crap is World War 3 (Unless you wish to inact a disciplinary culture into a culture that lacks total discipline... taking about a few generations if were lucky). Don't care what anyone sais, but without forced discipline people will only expect things to be done for them instead of doing it themselves.

 

[Hookman]

well as long as I was an Alpha, I would be happy.

Not exactly true. Even if you were a Gamma you'd still be happy because you didn't feel the need to be any higher or lower than you were. Wasn't that kinda the point of BNWs class system?

OT: I believe that it is a dystopia for us because we are on the outside looking in. For the characters in the book all is as it should be (Except for the deviants obviously) and any other way of living would be horrifying for them. They would view the way we live our lives as a dystopia!