Hmmm...in that case, we must ask how much does the Federation trade with people outside it? That might become relevant.Mangod said:
Poll: ST Federation or 40k Imperium - who would win in a war?
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If it was in the 40k universe, The Federation would have a good chance if it focused solely on the Imperium. The Imperium has so many enemies already and is fighting on so many fronts that a concentrated attack from an outside front might be the straw that breaks the camel's back.
If it was a one-on-one, only their active military powered being considered, the Imperium would curbstomp the Federation without a doubt. Even if it was just the Astra Militarum vs the Federation the Feds would probably be destroyed. Add Space Marines and special forces to the mix and you got yourself a lunch-break war if I ever saw one.
If it was a one-on-one, only their active military powered being considered, the Imperium would curbstomp the Federation without a doubt. Even if it was just the Astra Militarum vs the Federation the Feds would probably be destroyed. Add Space Marines and special forces to the mix and you got yourself a lunch-break war if I ever saw one.
yes, Imperium ships have teleporters(warp capable ones anyway) that are able to reach the ground from orbit, it's also a psychic power and some space marine armors have them equipped as well. They are not as accurate as trecks, but they do have 2 advantages over the trek version.Jute88 said:
1. They can transport into places that seem to give treck transporters trouble.(due to it using another dimension rather then energy transfer)
2. they are instantaneous, treks seem to take a few seconds for a person to be able to move and such.
Yeah, but likewise, if they're not fighting in a vacuum, then the Federation's gonna get jumped by every Dark Eldar corsair and Ork Waaagh! in the segmentum.JamesStone said:
Conversely, if the Imperium gets chucked into the 'Trek-verse, they'll be stuck in a galaxy where the only enemies are gimped Tau (Federation), tiny Orks (Klingons), non-prescient Eldar (Romulans), and the bastard offspring of the Ad-Mech and the Necrons (Borg).
I do believe the scenario specified that it was just the Federation VS the Imperium, no other factions involved.JamesStone said:
This is always a problem with versus threads. The Imperium and the Federation literally can't exist in the same universe because both have Earth as their capital world. And if you're going for the "we jumped in a dimensional vortex and popped out in the other guy's universe," then the "defending" universe usually wins due to a home field advantage.Mangod said:
It's easiest to just assume, for the purposes of the argument, that the Imperium's territory and the Federation's territory magically appeared next to each other one day, and neither side's enemies were invited to the party.
This is nitpicking, but the Imperial Guard (I'm not calling them the...that other word) doesn't have any ships. The Imperium has a segregated military, whereby the Guard has troops but no way to move them and the Navy has ships but no troops to invade with.JamesStone said:
So if it was just the Guard versus the Federation, the result would be kind of slapstick, as it'd be a bunch of guys standing around on a planet somewhere looking at a bunch of spaceships in orbit that they can't shoot at.
They do not. Like Space Marines, the Titan Legions are a set of separate organizations.Mangod said:
So much this. The IoM naval forces still regularly rely on kinetic ballistic weapons an addition to upscaled lasers and plasma ejectors. A Starfleet vessel regularly achieves superluminal speeds in orbit of technologically advanced worlds.Paragon Fury said:
With all the debris and crap they must shrug of at fantastic speeds, how the hell is a macro cannon going to do anything? The piddily shields they can put on photon torpedos can hang out for awhile in the upper levels of a star, what the hells a plasma cannon going to do, exactly?
So yeah, Imperium ships are big and (potentially) have a lot of firepower, but their in combat speed is crap, they have Dune-esc shields, and their sensor tech is decidedly sub-par.
It didn't work out too well for the Yamato or the Musashi either.
Imperial Titans are run by a sub-set of the Adeptus Mechanicus called the Collegia Titanica or Adeptus Titantica.Mangod said:
Handling debris at warp speeds is the actual job of the navigational deflector dish, which projects some kind of force field forwards to shunt meteorites and smaller particles out of the way of the ship itself.altnameJag said:
While that description is quite reasonable and makes total sense, the deflector dish is infamous for being overused by the writers of TNG and onwards as an ad hoc solution to virtually any problem conceivable. A short list of things a deflector dish can do in Star Trek:
- destroy a Borg cube in a single shot
- ionise an entire planet's atmosphere to alter its ecosystem
- fight beings from two-dimensional space
- communicate with the past
- vent excess power during a core breach
- create or stabilize wormholes
- spoof a sensor array by mimicking a ship's warp signature
- boost a ship's transporter range
- straight-up time travel
If I had to give the deflector dish a reasonable, logical limitation, it would be that it faces forward. Presumably, it can't deflect macro cannon shots aimed at the stern.
It is like the Thread "Warhammer 40k Armies VS Everyone" all over again.
I don't know nothing about the Star-Trek Universe, but reading some nasty materials about Chaotic Gods which can END everything in their path if they make the effort to do something, I see unlikely Federation can to something major with The Imperium.
I don't know nothing about the Star-Trek Universe, but reading some nasty materials about Chaotic Gods which can END everything in their path if they make the effort to do something, I see unlikely Federation can to something major with The Imperium.
You can't really throw in the Chaos gods and still call it the Imperium fighting with the federation, that's like saying the Q get to show up to help the federation. Both settings have god like entities that can basically do whatever they want, and having quasi-omnipotent entities in a versus debate is basically just going to devolve into throwing no limits arguments at each other.SweetShark said:
Besides, the entire point of the Chaos gods is that they are a reflection of life and emotions outside the warp, by their own nature they can't really keep it together long enough to make the effort to go all out. They are chaotic and end up either sabotaging themselves or each other.
No, I mean in general. Not about the Imperium VS Federation fight.EternallyBored said:
Literally the Universe of W40K is about War and only War. Is there a moment which they had Peace? Af far I know no, but maybe I can be wrong of course.
So if we have an Army which constantly fight with Undead Robotic Entities, Harvesting Aliens, Chaotic Avatars, Stupidly Overpowered Greenskins....then Federetion id F*cked.
What kind of enemies Federation had in the past or now?
Nazis, alternative universe nazis, future regimes based on Nazis and holographic Nazis from when the holodeck fails, which it does eveyr 5 minutes.SweetShark said:
Oh, and a Gorn, once.
....Then I need to update my Nazi list in Pinterest in the future.Thaluikhain said:
Thank you for telling me.
The deflector is not deflecting stuff at FTL.altnameJag said:
Warp drive works by bending space, the ship is not physically moving at that speed It's just getting dragged along in the pocket. So the relative velocity between the ship and the debris is rather low.
Also, as things like photon torpedoes are still physical objects before they explode and seem to smack into the ship just fine, and the number of times we see the ships collide with physical objects with no were near the energy that some of the Imperium shells have. I think macro cannons will work just fine.
Lance batterys have energy outputs much higher then phrases and disruptors, which seem effective enough at making parts of the ship go boom, despite the ships ability to hang out in the upper part of a star.
Just a thought, The Federation could probably do really well using weaponized nanites against the IoM. The IoM stagnant technological progress and inflexibility would probably make them very slow to do with all the tricks the Federation could possibly with better and fast evolving technologies. That and their ships seems to be perfectly effective at combat speeds far beyond the IoM.
Even if the IoM won in the long run, I'd bet their losses would probably be extreme considering their population advantage and propensity for war, and of course their vastly superior troops.
But the Star Trek universe is built around a completely different ideology, and is more grounded in reality than many aspects of Warhammer 40k. It's not going to match up very clean regardless. But that's not really the point anyway. It's interesting to think about.
Perhaps a better match up would be the alternate universe Terran Empire from Star Trek, if they had Next Generation's tech level. They would have many of the Federation's advantages without as much as the moral disadvantages.
Even if the IoM won in the long run, I'd bet their losses would probably be extreme considering their population advantage and propensity for war, and of course their vastly superior troops.
But the Star Trek universe is built around a completely different ideology, and is more grounded in reality than many aspects of Warhammer 40k. It's not going to match up very clean regardless. But that's not really the point anyway. It's interesting to think about.
Perhaps a better match up would be the alternate universe Terran Empire from Star Trek, if they had Next Generation's tech level. They would have many of the Federation's advantages without as much as the moral disadvantages.
So, is the warp bubble deflecting the physical debris then? Considering Starfleet fights at FTL speeds, I'll go back to "what the hell are macro cannons going to do?"direkiller said:
Yes, photon torpedoes (shielded) impact the shields of Starfleet ships moving at warp speed and can cause some damage when the ship's shields hold. Because they can hit ships moving in FTL, something Imperial weapons have almost no chance of. If the ship's shields hold, you're mostly looking at minor energy overloads and exploding fuses. And here's the trick: Photon torpedos have a yield of 64 megatons, at a minimum. (Just based on how much anti-matter they carry, using our math and not accounting for actual explosions and materials used on the show or in their technical manuals) Or in other words: the photon torpedo, at its most primitive, has a blast 20% stronger than the Tsar Bomba, the largest nuclear device humanity has ever detonated. As it's tech floor. They're fired in volleys and generally fired after phaser fire weakens the shields of its target, because torpedos aren't very good against shielded enemies. And Imperial shields don't function at all against torpedos.direkiller said:
See, you say that, but the only numbers we have on any of those are from the Trek side, and even those are theoretical.direkiller said:
Besides, Lances can't hit ordinance. They have problems shooting at small targets. Small, fast targets, especially. They're only about 50% accurate when shooting at Three-mile Island, probably less when shooting at much smaller ships capable at moving at some multiple of c at the drop of a hat. (The time lag between "the impulse engines are technically on" and Warp 9 is three tenths of a second)
altnameJag said:
Speed of the projectiles can be theoretically calculated from the BFG manuals.
mars pattern macrobattery: fires a kilo-ton(million kg or 1/3 the enterprise-E) projectile 6 void units(~10,000km) "almost instantly"
so 60,000km/s fair?
Edit: forgot to convert km to m
500,000* 60,000,000^2 =1.8*10^21
or 180 exajoules per shell
I don't know of a way to calculate lance energy output but Lances do roughly the same damage in BFG, and some of the outer things they do in lore(melting continental shelves) would require in the pentajouls.
Now here is the problem for trek, Imperium ships armor is designed to take multiple hits from these weapons. I think you could drop the warpcore of the enterprise on a IOM battleship and it might wake up the captain.
and with how many times I have seen enterprise and outer ships get smacked by something moving slower then light speed.
https://youtu.be/bXq3dytL6ZA?t=52s
getting a hit may not be as hard as you make it out to be.
Does Starfleet fight at FTL speeds? I never got that impression from the show.altnameJag said:
Isn't the whole point of the Picard Maneouvre that it involves going to warp-speed in the middle of a fight to attack from an unexpected direction?
Edit: Apparently the super-ship designed by Khan in the reboot universe could fire while pursuing another ship at warp speed (unlike the Enterprise) so I guess it's within the Federation's technology capability.