Poll: Suicide

[Plinglebob]

Snip due to length, not quality

First of all, I just want to encourage all those that haven't read this post to do so.

The problem with the Suicide discussion is the only experience a lot of people have of suicide is just someone saying they are going too to try and get attention. These people not only trivialise the issue but make it harder for those that threaten/attempt it as a real cry for help to be heard.

There are 3 important things about suicide that are hard to understand/appreciate if you've never been there which haven't really been mentioned so far so I thought I'd bring them up.

The first is that people do it because they feel that there is no other way out of their situation. This is mainly due to depression clouding their judgement but it can also be because they've tried to get out of it themselves and haven't been able too, they have asked for/made cries for help but they've gone unanswered/ignored (or just told to Cheer Up) or they've suffered so much emotional/physical abuse that they are unable even to do that. Also, despite what many people here seem to think, not everyone is able to help themselves. All this leads the person to feeling trapped and the only option left to them is killing themselves.

Suicide is a selfish act if you only think of yourself and not your love ones. Would they want you to do this if yes then have at it.

The second is anger. Despite what this person and others here think, the person committing suicide probably is thinking of you. They're thinking how you and others were unable/unwilling to help or were so wrapped up in your life you were unable to see they needed help and so used suicide to perform the biggest "Fuck You" possible. The reason people say its selfish is because it makes them feel bad because they realise they could have done something to stop it and feel guilty that they didn't. They then project this anger on the person who killed themselves by calling the act selfish.

Finally, and this one I cannot stress enough, ALWAYS DO WHAT YOU CAN TO STOP SOMEONE When someone makes a serious attempt, they slip into a trance state so arn't fully concious of what they're doing as they search for a way to kill themselves. If this trance state is left to continue, that person will kill themselves. If its interrupted, either by not being able to get something to do it with (this is why suicide rates dropped when it was made illigal to sell more then 2 packs of asprin at a time) or someone snaps them out of it.

 

[Vredesbyrd67]

Still, they can't see it this way. And I will repeat myself: They won't be able to regret their suicide. So unless it's a close friend or relative: Why not let them kill themselves if they want to?
Preventing someone from killing himself even though he wants to is, in my opinion, a severe infringement of his rights. He has the right to end his life as much as he has the right to live.

On a side note: I wouldn't say that all suicidal people are that way, and there is never a good reason for killing yourself. I think there are plenty of good reasons to end one's life, and if one chooses to do so, he shouldn't be regarded as being "wrong" and "misguided".

Oh my, where to start.

You say that people have a right to kill themselves, because it's their life and they have the right to end it if they want. I actually agree with this. No really, I do. If a person believes they've had enough of life and want to end it in a non-messy way, if one of the 8 people who do so every year for these reasons want to, then they should be allowed to. What I am against is people believing that suicide is their only option doing so. I am against people who are mentally ill committing suicide because they can't see any other option. I'm against it because it's a symptom of mental illness. Do you know how the DSM-IV defines mental illness? Behavior that is contrary to what is considered "normal" and is maladaptive. That means that it has to cause them pain. That is the defining factor, not merely that they're different in some way- their behavior has to interfere with them living their lives "normally". That's what depression does: it interferes with your life.

You say someone who wants this should do so if they want to and not be stopped, "unless they're a close friend or relative." This isn't about the use of narcotic drugs, matey, this is about someone implementing the most permanent change one can inflict on one's life. Saying someone should have the freedom to do so, "unless you care about them" is either extremely hypocritical or evidence of extremely blithe thinking.

You say that if they do it, they can't regret it, so it doesn't matter one way or the other.

It absolutely matters. We're talking about someone killing themselves here, not hooking up with the fat chick at the office. It's a big fucking deal, not just to themselves, but to those who care about them.

After everything you said that was pro-choice (in terms of suicide) in the previous, you also say these words:

"I wouldn't say that all suicidal people are that way, and there is never a good reason for killing yourself."

And then you say:

"I think there are plenty of good reasons to end one's life."

Again, giving someone their standard rights is important, but nobody ever really wants to commit suicide because of the reasons, "nobody loves me, the world is pain, nothing will ever improve", because the people in this state want to kill themselves for reasons that don't exist. They just feel like they can't change their position in life, and eventually they get fed up. However, 999.999% of the time, that just isn't the case, but they can't tell one way or another, because, all together now:

[HEADING=1]They are mentally ill, and can't see the world for what it really is.[/HEADING]

This is about protecting people who don't understand what they're doing. Freedom- yes, it's important. But, like everything, there is a limit to how far that extends.

One last thing: they're not "wrong" if they do it. They're not "sinners" or terrible people. Nobody is accusing them of being such. Furthermore, not every issue comes down to what is "right" or "wrong." That's not how things work.

 

[Baradiel]

I have seriously considered suicide, but not because I'm "depressed".

Let me try and explain: (These are all my own opinions. I am not trying to convince anyone else)

I am incredibly philosophical. I have already concluded that there is no God worth worshipping. If there is one he is not omnipotent as well as benevolent. I have considered what the world will be like in a century, and it is bleak. Mankind is only steering itself into oblivion.

What will I do with my life? Nothing important. Even if I became Primeminister, it wouldn't matter in the extreme long run. I could develop a cure for AIDs or cancer, but it wouldn't matter. Some of ailment would appear, possibly worse because of our overuse of medicines.

Basically, I have contemplated suicide because I don't see the point in living. Nothing particularly bad has happened to me, and I'm not depressed in the normal sense. I just don't see why I should suffer and drag myself through the natural span of my life, doing a pointless job simply to pay bills and keep wheels turning, only to die eventually.

If I don't get into university, and I don't find something else to apply myself to, I will probably kill myself, simply because I don't see why not...

Well, I guess I kinda worked it out. If there's no great glorious end to all this, if nothing we do matters... , then all that matters is what we do. Because that's all there is. What we do. Now. Today.

Do you understand what this means? The point in this text?
Using a philosophy and conclusion to make life meaningless only puts yourself in that part of hell on earth which you are in right now.
There are no absolutes. There is just today. How you chose to live today is completely up to you, but it really pisses me off that you see so little value in life.
Do you not understand how precious life is? What people would do to be able to have it?

People like you do not deserve to live. There are better people who would make better with a heart beat and a breath. But yet you do. You're alive, and I'm so happy to know that you are, having these dark thoughts in your head.

Stop taking life for granted.

PS: To answer the OP, I do not mock suicidal people. I do however like to remind them of their stupidity and try to get at least one point across. I would also have punched the person above me and then given him a hug. Maybe a kiss on the forehead as well.

I sortof understand your zealotry in trying to make everyone understand the joy to their lives, and yes I probably shouldn't think the way I do. But the fact is, I do. I do, because I have had far too much time to think about this sort of thing.

I ultimately believe that it is up to the individual how they spend their life, and if someone didn't see why they should continue with it, it is their choice to end it.

I'm not "taking life for granted", by the way. I abhor killing, whether murder or war, because the victims of murder and war often don't decide that they want to die, and have a reason to live. But if someone truly wants to die, if they don't see the point in continuing, then that is their choice to make.

Life is a beautiful thing, but it is a gift people have a right to refuse. For all my grand declarations of wanting to die, I probably won't.

Because I'm a coward.

I see being able to kill yourself, without knowing what awaits (Agnostic, btw) to be one of the bravest things possible. If someone martyrs themselves for their religion, that is significantly less admirable, because they believe there will be a reward for them, at the end. If you just believe that death is absolute, blackness, a void, and you willingly embrace that... well... thats brave. And possibly stupid, depending on your opinion.

Keep telling yourself you don't take life for granted. I'm sure you'll manage to convince yourself of it, like every other bullshit you've been cramming into that broken head of yours.

You're just like a nazi. I may hate all that you stand for, but you still have your right to your opinion, even though I feel like ripping your head of for it.

Since when did ANYONE have the right to decide the fate of a life? Life and death? It's not your fucking choice who gets to live and who doesn't.
This is my view.
I'm not going to keep this conversation up. If I do, I'll go nuts.

I hope you get your head out of your ass one day. For your own sake.

You're already nuts. I've tried being civil, but you are spouting so much ideological bullshit that I've given up. You've also compared me to a Nazi, which I just can't grasp.

I sortof envy you, with your narrowminded ability to see life as black-or-white. I'm guessing you are religious in some way? Claiming that people don't have the choice of life or death is the most barbaric thing I've heard for a while. (While I'm not calling religion barbaric, it can harden people's perspectives, leading to statements like yours)

You can take your self righteousness, your moral code, you can enjoy it all. I don't care. I prefer the reality where people have the choice over their lives.

 

[Stammer]

Suicide is a human being's last resort when they think they can't do anything else to make their life better. When for a long time so many bad things happen and it's spiralling downwards constantly with no way to slow it down or climb back up.

Suicide is not "just the easy way out". In fact, it's probably the most difficult thing a human being can perform because it goes against our most basic and strongest natural instinct: that which we value our own life and will do anything to preserve it.

The only possible way a person could voluntarily commit suicide is if they held something so dear to them that they valued more than their life and would rather lose their own life than lose that thing. Flinging your own self between an armed psychopath and a loved one as an example. Or even something like losing friends, family members, and all of your possessions.

 

[Bloodstain]

snip

Okay. I could write an incredibly long essay now, evaluating all kinds of reasons and situations and whatnot. However, I am not going to do that. Instead, I will just say these last things:

Of course I am hypocritical. Of course the suicide of a close friend is way more painful to me than the suicide of strangers. If people I will never encounter or have never known commit suicide, then, well, I couldn't care less. It won'T change my life and I am sure they had plenty of good personal reason to commit suicide, otherwise they wouldn't have done it. But even if it is a close friend; I have the right to tell him that I don't approve of him being suicidal, and that his death would hurt me; still, he has the right to end his life at will. It is his life, and he shouldn't be forced to live on by others. Life can be both happy and painful; death is neither. If his life is more painful than happy, and he is of the opinion that death is less bad than his life, then so be it, whether it hurts me or not. I am only a human being, I can only evaluate things using my personal experiences, and only from my point of view. If his point of view is different, I have no authority whatsoever to say "I am right and you are delusioned". Which bring me to the next point...
You say suicidal people don't see the world as it is. How do you know you see the world as it is, and they don't? I mean, it is great that you appreciate life, and by no means am I trying to convince you otherwise, but it's your personal opinion. Just like me, you have no right to say "You are wrong/delusioned" to someone who doesn't appreciate life. You are not some kind of higher being as opposed to suicidals; you are both human beings of equal worth. Who knows, maybe suicidals are the ones who see the world as it is, whereas you are the one being delusioned. Personally, I think there is no absolute nature of life and the world; everybody has a different view on it. And this view is subjective and relative, as is everything else we think or are. I could go on further about how everything is subjective and could be a delusion; maybe the world is like the Matrix, and we are just in somwe kind of giant dream? We can't know, we never will.
So my question is: How can you claim to know how the world is, and how can you claim that suicidals don't?

Next point: I am of the opinion that telling someone not to commit suicide is selfish, in a very weird kind of way. You surely agree with me that death is absolute nothingness, without pain or happiness. So death is nothing bad, nor is it particularly good. It's absolutely neutral because you don'T feel anything anymore. So telling someone that he shouldn't commit suicide is basically trying to prevent oneself from being hurt by their death. The death of close friends makes one sad. You don't try to prevent them from being dead--because if they want to be dead, they have every right to be that, as it is nothing bad--, but prevent yourself from being so unhappy. However, there is nothing wrong with that. Being selfish in that very kind of way is part of our nature, nothing bad at all. Likewise, I think that every time you are polite or friendly it is for selfish reasons; for example, you hold the door for someone because you are proud of yourself afterwards, and because the "Thank you" of others shows approval of your very existence. I could go on, but I think you get my point. And that's only my opinion anyway; and there are as many opinions as colours of the rainbow.


Oh boy, now I did write more than I planned to. Anyway, as you can see, we have very different opinions on the subject, and neither of us can truly be right or wrong. I don't think we can ever convince the other, respectively. But I think I've made my point clear now, and so have you with your most recent post.
Conclusion: You have your opinion, I have mine, people are different. And in my opinion, that is okay. Have a good day.