Poll: Super carrier vs. Battleship

Recommended Videos

Red Albatross

New member
Jun 11, 2009
339
0
0
ADeskofRichMahogany said:
Red Albatross said:
There's a reason that battleships no longer have a place in modern navies, and that reason is aircraft. If you'll take a look at history, especially World War II, most of the Nazi battleships were sunk or crippled by aircraft, not by battles with other naval vessels.
Aircraft made battleships obsolete because air power made naval power obsolete. That's the idea behind carriers: your fleet never actually has to see the enemy to attack them. Kinda makes cannons useless. Also, I'm pretty sure it was the success of aircraft in battles like Coral Sea and Midway that prompted navies to emphasize aircraft carriers, not against the Nazis.

thaluikhain said:
Close the distance? Why? 1 mile is already bizarrely close for an engagement.
I mean literally get right next to the carrier. I mean, you can't let the carrier put too much distance between itself and the battleship (if you're rooting for the battleship that is), it makes it that much harder to hit the carrier. Also being right next to the carrier might limit the attacking ability of aircraft. And who knows, maybe you can ram the carrier? Super kamikaze?
It's true that aircraft played a huge part in the Pacific theatre, but the beginnings of the idea began with the decimation of the Nazi naval forces by aircraft. The most famous happening of course being the Bismarck, which was crippled by torpedo bombers launched from the British carrier Ark Royal, which allowed Royal Navy surface units to engage and sink her, but there's much more. Bismark's sister ship, the Tirpitz, was kept out of the war almost entirely by aircraft, and eventually sunk by 12,000 lb bombs dropped by the British Lancaster bombers. The battlecruisers Scharnhorst and Gneisenau were also hounded by aircraft and kept from causing any significant amount of havoc. If the Nazis had had air superiority to keep their ships safe, the battle for the Atlantic would have been much more dangerous for the British. The Royal Navy was much larger, but the Kriegsmarine had better surface ships (they sure knew how to build ships) and their U-boat force would have been frightening, especially if the Kriegsmarine had been able to bring more of the type XXI U-boats into service. Thankfully, Hitler had a bad habit of overriding his Kriegsmarine commanders, and his decision-making became more and more erratic as the war drew on.

The reason that aircraft carriers didn't play a part in the Atlantic theatre was because near Europe and Great Britain, they were unnecessary due to most of the action happening close enough to shore to use land-based aircraft. But from lessons learned in the Atlantic theatre and from the effectiveness of the Pearl Harbor attack, the death warrant of battleships had already been signed by the time the major Pacific naval battles occurred.

I disagree with your assertion that air power has made naval power obsolete, however. Again, air, land, and sea dominance are ALL necessary for a country to fight on foreign soil. The U.S. has a great many airbases on foreign soil, but our carriers are absolutely a necessary element of projecting air power. Airbases are much more vulnerable to attack (even small craters can prevent the aircraft currently in U.S. service from taking off, our air power is extremely high-tech but also has a reputation for being extremely high-maintenance and not rugged at all, as opposed to the Soviet-then-Russian design philosophy of making rugged airframes capable of operating from little more than patches of dirt) and our overseas airbases are also subject to shifting political climes. Aircraft carriers are much less vulnerable. But it takes traditional naval power to protect the carrier herself. Aircraft intercept aircraft, and aircraft can take out surface vessels with missiles like the Harpoon and the Exocet, but the carrier's warship screen keeps it safe from missile threats and submarines. In turn, the carrier's air power keeps the warships safe and can also protect troops on the ground that are within the combat radius of its hardware. It's all about synergy - everyone has a part to play.
 

deathninja

New member
Dec 19, 2008
745
0
0
At one mile, the Iowa would trash the Nimitz with her opening volley. Though the air complement of the Nimitz could do some major damage if i) enough assets could still launch, and ii) if there were enough to get through the CIWS.

Either way, the repair will would be f'ing HUGE.
 

Pyro Paul

New member
Dec 7, 2007
842
0
0
Nimitz class carrier-
25 seconds to launch an aircraft
15 seconds for aircraft to aquire target lock
5 seconds missle travel.

Iowa class Battleship
1 minute 30 seconds Load for 16 inch gun. (guns are stored empty so have to be loaded for first shot)

in the time it takes the Battleship to shoot a Single round the Aircraft has 4 birds in the sky and 2-8 Harpoon anti-ship missles on target.

Before some one says the 5 inch guns, the Nimitz' armor is designed to shrug off rounds from Destroyers... which have 5 inch deck guns. the only weapons aboard a modernized battleship that can sink a super carrier is its 16 inch guns and its cruise missles... and considering that carriers have superior ECM, jammers, decoys, and anti-missle systems designed to counter cruise missles... the only thing it has going for it is the 16 inch guns.
 

Eclectic Dreck

New member
Sep 3, 2008
6,662
0
0
Given the absurd conditions wherein the carrier is alone (they travel with sizable escort fleets) and the battleship is sitting at, in naval terms at lest, is point blank range, the Battleship has the edge. The strength of a carrier is in it's aircraft and it is simply not equipped to directly engage in combat. Even if there were already bombers in the air, a single volley from a battleship is more than sufficient to sink a carrier.

If you were to instead chose more reasonable circumstances, the battleship would lose without question.
 

direkiller

New member
Dec 4, 2008
1,655
0
0
ADeskofRichMahogany said:
direkiller said:
the 16in guns on the Iowa can shoot about 23miles
the 5in guns(Iowa had 20 of them) can shoot 15rounds per min and are able to shoot 5 miles
hell even the the 40mm AA guns on the Iowa can shoot about a mile and a half(and she has 80 of them)

the carrier is going down it is simply too close to the BB carriers engage at 100s of miles not within 1
Yeah, that sounds pretty fair. I don't think the carrier can put 5 miles between itself and the 5in guns in time. The only unknown factors here are how much damage the aircraft can do in what span of time, and what kind of armor we're talking about on the carrier.

(for those of you who looked up the Nimitz class on Wikipedia, it lists 2.5in Kevlar on vital space; it doesn't mention anything about how thick the actual metal plating is. It honestly wouldn't surprise me if the plating was also around 10in)

Also, we're talking about the Cold War redesign of the Iowa. The AA guns were taken off the Iowa when the Tomahawk missles were installed.
i was going off what i know about the WW2 vareint although the point about the guns i was trying to make is its an extreamly close range and the armor on the carrier is basically a non issue for the 16in guns- there gonna be 9 house sized holes clean though the carrier
and the 5in guns would reek havoc on even vital areas(700lb of shells per min is bound to break something)

the carrier just simply isn't designed to engage at 1 mile(the BB isn't too but its more suited for it)

carrier are bread and butter of the navy because they can engage at hundreds of miles not within 1
 

direkiller

New member
Dec 4, 2008
1,655
0
0
Pyro Paul said:
Nimitz class carrier-
25 seconds to launch an aircraft
15 seconds for aircraft to aquire target lock
5 seconds missle travel.

Iowa class Battleship
1 minute 30 seconds Load for 16 inch gun. (guns are stored empty so have to be loaded for first shot)

in the time it takes the Battleship to shoot a Single round the Aircraft has 4 birds in the sky and 2-8 Harpoon anti-ship missles on target.

Before some one says the 5 inch guns, the Nimitz' armor is designed to shrug off rounds from Destroyers... which have 5 inch deck guns. the only weapons aboard a modernized battleship that can sink a super carrier is its 16 inch guns and its cruise missles... and considering that carriers have superior ECM, jammers, decoys, and anti-missle systems designed to counter cruise missles... the only thing it has going for it is the 16 inch guns.
you can launch planes 25 seconds apart once there good to go but the prep time on the first bird takes a bit longer(you dont keep the bombs attached to the planes in the hanger or keep the engines running,pilots sitting in the planes)

you do keep gunner at the guns though so there is going to be shells landing before the planes take off

5 in guns on the Iowa have up to a 85*ark(basically high angle shots) they can just pound the flight deck and superstructure(DD in WW2 did it a few times to heavy cruisers and Battleships)
 

obi2012

New member
May 22, 2011
43
0
0
direkiller said:
Pyro Paul said:
Nimitz class carrier-
25 seconds to launch an aircraft
15 seconds for aircraft to aquire target lock
5 seconds missle travel.

Iowa class Battleship
1 minute 30 seconds Load for 16 inch gun. (guns are stored empty so have to be loaded for first shot)

in the time it takes the Battleship to shoot a Single round the Aircraft has 4 birds in the sky and 2-8 Harpoon anti-ship missles on target.

Before some one says the 5 inch guns, the Nimitz' armor is designed to shrug off rounds from Destroyers... which have 5 inch deck guns. the only weapons aboard a modernized battleship that can sink a super carrier is its 16 inch guns and its cruise missles... and considering that carriers have superior ECM, jammers, decoys, and anti-missle systems designed to counter cruise missles... the only thing it has going for it is the 16 inch guns.
you can launch planes 25 seconds apart once there good to go but the prep time on the first bird takes a bit longer(you dont keep the bombs attached to the planes in the hanger or keep the engines running,pilots sitting in the planes)

you do keep gunner at the guns though so there is going to be shells landing before the planes take off

5 in guns on the Iowa have up to a 85*ark(basically high angle shots) they can just pound the flight deck
Exactly, and the scenario states both go to stations at the same time, therefore, the carrier is dead in the water, simply because it would take to long to get the planes loaded and launched, the guns and missiles on the Iowa would easily shred it
 

One of Many

New member
Feb 3, 2010
331
0
0
TheTim said:
Carriers were proven far superior to Battleships the moment the British Swordfish torpedo bombers took down the Bismarck flagship
Wrong wrong wrong.

The Bismark never took any serious damage from the Swordfish torpedo attacks. Out of the three torpedoes that she didn't manage to evade, two hit her amidships and did almost nothing to her. The third managed to jam the rudders. During the night the crew was able to repair the starboard rudder but not the port.

The next morning, Bismark was hammered by the British battleships King George V and Rodney, along with the heavy cruisers Dorsetshire and Norfolk. The final blow, which sank Bismark is unknown. It could have been a torpedo fired by Dorsetshire or it's claimed that the crew of Bismark scuttled her themselves.

While it is true that without the Swordfish torpedo bombers, Bismark might have gotten away, she was sank by surface ships, not planes.
 

Galliam

New member
Dec 26, 2008
237
0
0
Iowa class could only potentially win in the first few minutes of the conflict, even if planes got in the air it isn't as hopeless as some would suggest. We don't use battleships, but we still use destroyers. Same concept, smaller scale.

Either way, a few good shots with the big guns and a carrier would sink. If the battleship was less than accurate, they'd get destroyed.

Not as far apart as people are suggesting, but still probably going to the carrier at least half the time and a draw 30% of the time.

but then again, my knowledge of naval weapons isn't that great.
 

Pyro Paul

New member
Dec 7, 2007
842
0
0
direkiller said:
Pyro Paul said:
Nimitz class carrier-
25 seconds to launch an aircraft
15 seconds for aircraft to aquire target lock
5 seconds missle travel.

Iowa class Battleship
1 minute 30 seconds Load for 16 inch gun. (guns are stored empty so have to be loaded for first shot)

in the time it takes the Battleship to shoot a Single round the Aircraft has 4 birds in the sky and 2-8 Harpoon anti-ship missles on target.

Before some one says the 5 inch guns, the Nimitz' armor is designed to shrug off rounds from Destroyers... which have 5 inch deck guns. the only weapons aboard a modernized battleship that can sink a super carrier is its 16 inch guns and its cruise missles... and considering that carriers have superior ECM, jammers, decoys, and anti-missle systems designed to counter cruise missles... the only thing it has going for it is the 16 inch guns.
you can launch planes 25 seconds apart once there good to go but the prep time on the first bird takes a bit longer(you dont keep the bombs attached to the planes in the hanger or keep the engines running,pilots sitting in the planes)

you do keep gunner at the guns though so there is going to be shells landing before the planes take off

5 in guns on the Iowa have up to a 85*ark(basically high angle shots) they can just pound the flight deck and superstructure(DD in WW2 did it a few times to heavy cruisers and Battleships)
you have a wing of Planes on the deck loaded and ready to go at a moments notice...
They are fueled, fitted, and ready to go. and Yes, munitions ARE fitted to these aircraft, and replacement munitions only take all of 5 seconds to be mounted. be fore launch the 'safty tags' are removed which complete the warhead circuit and make the weapon live ordinence.

these planes are towed into launch position, manned, then catapulted off the deck. so all these planes really need are pilots. and at a red alert it doesn't take all that long for these planes to be manned.

so regardless of the situation, in 25-30 seconds of a call, the First bird will be in the air with a second one 25 seconds after.

a Battleship from 'safe' does not store munitions in the turrets. not since a munitions explosion in no. 2 turret of the Iowa in 1989 nearly took the thing off the ship. All munitions are transported from the magazine a 2-5 minute journey. Then loaded into the gun breech (1 minute 30 seconds) before fired (between 1 and 15 minutes)


so if you want to go from green to red alert..
in 5 Minutes (generiously) you'll have 1 volley off of the Iowa.

in 5 Minutes you will have 2 wings of planes in the air (12 birds) each mounted with 2 Harpoon missles and several hundred 20mm bullets each.


and again...
the Nimitz is Designed to Shurg off 5 inch shells. All of the Nimitz, not just the sides. basing your claim off of World War 2 tactics is just flawed. the flight deck is fitted with over 2 inches of kevlar, over a layer of classified armor which is touted, again, to shrug off everything up to 5 inch ordinence.

and ontop of this, high trajectory volleys are highly inaccurate even for modern computers. even with all its guns saturating fire, its a 1 in 100 chance you'll hit anything vital.
 

Wicky_42

New member
Sep 15, 2008
2,468
0
0
Two ships at knife-fight range. One has cannons and missiles, the other a hangar full of planes and missiles.

What do you reckon the response time of a fighter pilot is? A minute or two? Ok, so how many rounds can the cannons fire in that time, and how many salvoes of missiles? Aircraft are moot in this context unless they are ready to launch on the runway, but even then they are going to get nailed on the runway or immediately after launch.

I say at that range both ships disappear in twin balls of fire as the first missile salvoes hit home. Silly range to fight at, and all the much-vaunted point defences can do jack shit when they're pumping the weapons directly down your throat.

Of course, put a the battleship at optimal operational range of the aircraft and the carrier wins easy. Cannon max range of 40km? Hah.
 

Wicky_42

New member
Sep 15, 2008
2,468
0
0
Pyro Paul said:
you have a wing of Planes on the deck loaded and ready to go at a moments notice...
They are fueled, fitted, and ready to go. and Yes, munitions ARE fitted to these aircraft, and replacement munitions only take all of 5 seconds to be mounted. be fore launch the 'safty tags' are removed which complete the warhead circuit and make the weapon live ordinence.

these planes are towed into launch position, manned, then catapulted off the deck. so all these planes really need are pilots. and at a red alert it doesn't take all that long for these planes to be manned.

so regardless of the situation, in 25-30 seconds of a call, the First bird will be in the air with a second one 25 seconds after.

a Battleship from 'safe' does not store munitions in the turrets. not since a munitions explosion in no. 2 turret of the Iowa in 1989 nearly took the thing off the ship. All munitions are transported from the magazine a 2-5 minute journey. Then loaded into the gun breech (1 minute 30 seconds) before fired (between 1 and 15 minutes)


so if you want to go from green to red alert..
in 5 Minutes (generiously) you'll have 1 volley off of the Iowa.

in 5 Minutes you will have 2 wings of planes in the air (12 birds) each mounted with 2 Harpoon missles and several hundred 20mm bullets each.


and again...
the Nimitz is Designed to Shurg off 5 inch shells. All of the Nimitz, not just the sides. basing your claim off of World War 2 tactics is just flawed. the flight deck is fitted with over 2 inches of kevlar, over a layer of classified armor which is touted, again, to shrug off everything up to 5 inch ordinence.

and ontop of this, high trajectory volleys are highly inaccurate even for modern computers. even with all its guns saturating fire, its a 1 in 100 chance you'll hit anything vital.
Hmm, if that's accurate then maybe the aircraft carrier would win a knife-fight. Of course, you're still trying to launch aircraft comfortably within the enemy's ballistic anti-aircraft range - they could literally hose the flightdeck with their AA fire at 1600m. I'm all for air power being the dominant weapon, but if the battleship's got shells in the breach then the carrier's going to be in a painful situation.
 

Pyro Paul

New member
Dec 7, 2007
842
0
0
Major Tom said:
And we are also forgetting that once the fighters are airborne, they still have to get to altitude and range to fire their ordinance. That alone would add some minutes to the response time, and also put some distance between the planes and the battleship that would probably allow the AAA systems on the Iowa to track and intercept them. For the scenario described, that carrier is fucked.
ECM. the heavily radar based CWIS systems aren't going to get a lock. and the manual targetting systems for the flak cannons arn't going to hit fast movers like jets.

and a mile is more then enough distance to get lock and fire the harpoon... and this missle can be fired from 20 feet above the water, so altitude is not of concern either.
 

Spade Lead

New member
Nov 9, 2009
1,042
0
0
thaluikhain said:
The Iowa class was built in the 30s. Even if it wasn't, nobody uses battleships anymore, for good reasons.

By contrast, the Nimitz is a modern, nuclear powererd (and capable) ship.

Also, why would Admirals be commanding individual ships?
Admirals Command Aircraft Carriers, Admirals always commanded Battleships in World Wars 1&2
 

Wicky_42

New member
Sep 15, 2008
2,468
0
0
ravensheart18 said:
...
It is of course a bazzare senerio that only a true geek would think up. Two ships that would never fight, in a situation they could never get into even if they were going to fight, commanded by officers who would never command a single ship.
I wanted to 'like' that bit - so true! Ah well, at least it's stimulated discussion!