Poll: The MMO Downfall (aka the WoW effect.)
- Thread starter Angelblaze
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It took me forever to decipher that. It's very annoying.Asturiel said:
OT: You seem very biased against WoW, OP.
WoW is a good game, solid game play. Does almost everything right. So, I play it. It has community tools, a great leveling system, good story and good endgame. It's not AMAZING!!!!ZOMG. It's just good. Blizzard does "good" really well.
I have tried other games and they seem a bit broken. Aion, Conan, LoTR, Warhammer, Guildwars, SW, FF online. Each one of them had parts that made me not like them. Not because they were different from wow, but, because they were bad.
FF online did the whole "alt" thing right by allowing you to have one character and change his class at any time so that you didn't have to start a new guy every time you wanted to play a new class. what it sucked at was the whole de-leveling BS and the 10 day long impossible boss fights and the language barrier. Those things made the game unplayable for me.
SW galaxies was a bit to rp for me. I wanted to be a light saber wielding jedi. not an entertainer or an officer etc. wtf was that, I didn't want to play a game that might or might not randomly unlock force sensitivity. I understand why they had to do that, cause if not they would have had 5000000 jedi running around. I think a better approach to this problem would have been 2 factions, jedi and sith. both sides have different classes of jedi or sith. Like sith have dark priest to jedi's medic etc. What I feel it did do right was player and guild housing.
Guildwars makes me realize the need to pay for an mmo. it was nothing more then an online pvp hack and slash. it felt like a gimped version of baulders gate. I didnt like it really. The thing it did have going for it is that I don't have to log out completly to play with friends, and if a city got to busy i could change to a different copy of that city on a different server.
Warhammer had way to many bugs. im not talking about balence issues (although it really had them) Im talking about simple texture mapping issues that could have easily been solved, yet existed months into release. I really liked how they did targeting and world quest. I want to be able to target a friendly and a hostile target in every mmo I play.
Conan was horrible - need I say more?
Aion was ok. Felt like the story really wasn't there. Any MMO made from a new IP needs to really tell the story in the leveling process. This is why wow is so embraced, the lore is already established. That's where Aion failed I think. It never got me into world.
LoTR - I need more fantasy, the knights of the round table crap has been done too much for me. it's stale and old. so I hated this story. Tried to be way to realistic for my tastes. not enough content.
RF online - I feel RF online could have been great had it actually been developed into something good. I only played a few levels of it, but it had no developed quests or storyline, the combat was good though.
City of Heros. no OC. after the first few dungeons/instances you've seen the entire game. they needed lots more content. I do like the questing system and the travel powers/system. the non/instance world was great. just too much grind, not enough story.
That being said, my favorite MMO was Planetside. I loved that game. I felt it was everything a FPS should ever be.
I have tried other games and they seem a bit broken. Aion, Conan, LoTR, Warhammer, Guildwars, SW, FF online. Each one of them had parts that made me not like them. Not because they were different from wow, but, because they were bad.
FF online did the whole "alt" thing right by allowing you to have one character and change his class at any time so that you didn't have to start a new guy every time you wanted to play a new class. what it sucked at was the whole de-leveling BS and the 10 day long impossible boss fights and the language barrier. Those things made the game unplayable for me.
SW galaxies was a bit to rp for me. I wanted to be a light saber wielding jedi. not an entertainer or an officer etc. wtf was that, I didn't want to play a game that might or might not randomly unlock force sensitivity. I understand why they had to do that, cause if not they would have had 5000000 jedi running around. I think a better approach to this problem would have been 2 factions, jedi and sith. both sides have different classes of jedi or sith. Like sith have dark priest to jedi's medic etc. What I feel it did do right was player and guild housing.
Guildwars makes me realize the need to pay for an mmo. it was nothing more then an online pvp hack and slash. it felt like a gimped version of baulders gate. I didnt like it really. The thing it did have going for it is that I don't have to log out completly to play with friends, and if a city got to busy i could change to a different copy of that city on a different server.
Warhammer had way to many bugs. im not talking about balence issues (although it really had them) Im talking about simple texture mapping issues that could have easily been solved, yet existed months into release. I really liked how they did targeting and world quest. I want to be able to target a friendly and a hostile target in every mmo I play.
Conan was horrible - need I say more?
Aion was ok. Felt like the story really wasn't there. Any MMO made from a new IP needs to really tell the story in the leveling process. This is why wow is so embraced, the lore is already established. That's where Aion failed I think. It never got me into world.
LoTR - I need more fantasy, the knights of the round table crap has been done too much for me. it's stale and old. so I hated this story. Tried to be way to realistic for my tastes. not enough content.
RF online - I feel RF online could have been great had it actually been developed into something good. I only played a few levels of it, but it had no developed quests or storyline, the combat was good though.
City of Heros. no OC. after the first few dungeons/instances you've seen the entire game. they needed lots more content. I do like the questing system and the travel powers/system. the non/instance world was great. just too much grind, not enough story.
That being said, my favorite MMO was Planetside. I loved that game. I felt it was everything a FPS should ever be.
Not totally in the minority if you consider swg sub baseKagim said:
Have you heard of swgemu? It swg rewinded to before the patches messed it up. Its totally legal and completely free to play. No sub. You should check it up if your interested in pre patch gameplay.
OT: Wow has the advantage of being well polished. I played it for several months and i'll give it that. I dont think i'll ever go back to it tho. I went back for the last expantion but this new one seems meh to me.
Theres a nice selection of mmo's out there its just hard to play two at the same time. I played alot of them and have settled on lotro for the moment as its also well polished but looking forward to sw:tor even if i am worried about it a little.
New mmo's these days have really low ammount of content and justify it by saying the games new (piss poor excuse, ether release the game with content or dont charge for a beta) so the older establised mmo's already beat them.
It really comes down to the games that are well polished that win.
Pity there's so fewof them :/
This x100000000. Seriously, MMOs are boring (and typically expensive) as hell.The Amazing Tea Alligator said:
I have only played WoW once on a friends computer and It sucked in my opinion. It was confusing, the enemies were bizarre, and it's about as balanced as a pair of scales with dust on one end and Jupiter on the other.
Personally, I prefer Runescape.(prepares for barrage of mocking) What? it's fun, and that's what counts in a game.
Personally, I prefer Runescape.(prepares for barrage of mocking) What? it's fun, and that's what counts in a game.
There is one thing that everyone seems to forget when its comes to gaming in general.
Games are a form of entertainment.
If a game can entertain me for more then 8 hours, to me that means its doing its job well. WoW not only did this, but it gave me a lot more.
I like many people in this thread have played my fair share of MMOGs, from WoW all the way to lesser known titles like Fury and Jade Dynasty. In fact I would say in total I have played close to 40 odd MMOGs.
Now I was around before WoW, playing games like Ultima, Anarchy and Everquest. So when I say WoW is in no way the best ever released, I can say it with intent and education.
WoW is popular, in fact the most popular. But this does not merit the title of "best". The reason that it is popular is because it is simple and effective. The lesser graphics allow low end computer users to play and simple format of questing can easily be done by a 5 year old.
But its not just this that makes WoW popular. Blizzard when creating WoW stated to the fan base, that they had "taken" a majority of its content, ideas and themes. WoW before it was anything was known as Warcraft. A fantastic RTS that took its storyline from the Warhammer table top game. This gave it an already existing fan base.
This same strategy worked for many other companies...Sony online with SWG and soon Bioware with SWTOR. The fan base of star wars super fanboys/girls will no doubt match WoW.
But I'm getting off track.
The entire reason people play WoW as they do is a psychological entanglement to a sense of achievement.
Let me explain in full.
If a person is lacking achievement in a game, they do not find it fun. Now those achievements can be a head shot in TF2 or getting that gear drop from ICC.
If a person is lacking achievement in life, they will find it in an MMO. I believe the TV show The Big Bang Theory showed this well, with one of their characters becoming an exaggerated age of conan "addict".
When an MMO gets this wrong and does not look at this achievement system as its stand point, they are sure to fail in return playability.
Make a mental image with me;
You have a rat in a cage and in that cage their is a lever which when pulled drops food from a small door into the cage.
Think of the rat as the player, the food as the achievement and of course the lever is a quest.
When the rat pulls the lever, he is rewarded and if the rat does not pull the lever, he is not punished and is not rewarded.
Psychologically the rat will return to the lever to get more food.
Games are a form of entertainment.
If a game can entertain me for more then 8 hours, to me that means its doing its job well. WoW not only did this, but it gave me a lot more.
I like many people in this thread have played my fair share of MMOGs, from WoW all the way to lesser known titles like Fury and Jade Dynasty. In fact I would say in total I have played close to 40 odd MMOGs.
Now I was around before WoW, playing games like Ultima, Anarchy and Everquest. So when I say WoW is in no way the best ever released, I can say it with intent and education.
WoW is popular, in fact the most popular. But this does not merit the title of "best". The reason that it is popular is because it is simple and effective. The lesser graphics allow low end computer users to play and simple format of questing can easily be done by a 5 year old.
But its not just this that makes WoW popular. Blizzard when creating WoW stated to the fan base, that they had "taken" a majority of its content, ideas and themes. WoW before it was anything was known as Warcraft. A fantastic RTS that took its storyline from the Warhammer table top game. This gave it an already existing fan base.
This same strategy worked for many other companies...Sony online with SWG and soon Bioware with SWTOR. The fan base of star wars super fanboys/girls will no doubt match WoW.
But I'm getting off track.
The entire reason people play WoW as they do is a psychological entanglement to a sense of achievement.
Let me explain in full.
If a person is lacking achievement in a game, they do not find it fun. Now those achievements can be a head shot in TF2 or getting that gear drop from ICC.
If a person is lacking achievement in life, they will find it in an MMO. I believe the TV show The Big Bang Theory showed this well, with one of their characters becoming an exaggerated age of conan "addict".
When an MMO gets this wrong and does not look at this achievement system as its stand point, they are sure to fail in return playability.
Make a mental image with me;
You have a rat in a cage and in that cage their is a lever which when pulled drops food from a small door into the cage.
Think of the rat as the player, the food as the achievement and of course the lever is a quest.
When the rat pulls the lever, he is rewarded and if the rat does not pull the lever, he is not punished and is not rewarded.
Psychologically the rat will return to the lever to get more food.
The problem is you need a bigger stick and Activision Blizzard wields a pretty damn big stick. WoW is well funded, is a marketing monster, has lots of people that are happy with it and will recommend it and it just does it's job too well. As it stands WoW scratches the itch the best and any trying to emulate it are doomed (or at least won't compete with it neck and neck). I think TOR has the potential to finally give WoW competition which is what the MMORPG market needs. I say that because of the Star Wars fan market it is tapping into. It could fill the sci-fi niche which WoW can't really do. I neither believe WoW needs to die or that it should be game of the year for the next century. It makes people happy and that's a good thing. But the gaming community needs stable alternatives. It's really an interesting genre because you not only need good development to make the game work you need a good player community to back it up. WoW sponges up most of the players and other MMORPGs fill the niches it can't reach. Rather than ramble and postulate further I'll just end it there.
WoW is the final boss of WoW, but its not for players to beat. Its an open challenge to any other developer to "make something better"
And by better, you need to be innovative, creative and fun. Not just novelties wrapped around a clone.
I don't know what would defeat the WoW boss yet, and if I had that answer, I'd be designing it and not talking about it.
Some people don't like it (and some of those people are still paying and playing). I also think that the whole addon thing is a unique experience and gives programmer-gamers a chance to add to the experience. Most other MMO's don't seem to share that ideal.
I do long to see a new MMO but I think it will have to go a different route, away from the FRPG's... to where I don't know.
And by better, you need to be innovative, creative and fun. Not just novelties wrapped around a clone.
I don't know what would defeat the WoW boss yet, and if I had that answer, I'd be designing it and not talking about it.
Some people don't like it (and some of those people are still paying and playing). I also think that the whole addon thing is a unique experience and gives programmer-gamers a chance to add to the experience. Most other MMO's don't seem to share that ideal.
I do long to see a new MMO but I think it will have to go a different route, away from the FRPG's... to where I don't know.
Not even close, in my eyes APB is struggling to even keep its current players.Me55enger said:
I'm having to seriously convince myself that I'd rather play APB than, say, TF2. I had no such problem with WoW. I would just log on, and find something to do then. Unless APB seriously, SERIOUSLY improves before ToR and Cataclysm, I feel it may sadly be saying goodbye.
WoW is the most popular because it is the best. If ToR is as amazing as has been made out, then maybe that will challenge it - but no fantasy RPG WoW clone will ever beat WoW.
I mean, why would it?
Problem is every MMO is trying to become the next WOW, whereas WOW itself has had around six years experience being WOW and unsurprisingly is really damn good at being WOW. Go figure!
What we need are more smaller, specialized MMO like EVE online, which doesn't even 'try' to be anything at all like WOW and instead appeals to its own unique community and fans. Sure it'll never have as many subscribers as WOW, but it's still raking in a shit-ton of cash and has ensured its own place as a long-term investment for the players.
Games don't have to have subscribers in the millions in order to be successful.
Personally I'm keeping an eye on both The Secret World and Black Prophecy, both appeal to me in different ways and the lead dev for the Secret World was the same man behind one of my all time favorite series: The Longest Journey. So I'm certainly intrigued. Also curious to see what Runic Games eventually come out with. Torchlight was damn fun, and I'm eager to see if they can truly pull off gameplay like that in a free-to-play MMO like they promise.
I don't think any of them even stand a remote chance of 'beating' WOW, but then they don't have to. Personally I just hope they'll be fun!
As for WOW itself, hate it all you like but there's a reason it's top dog right now and has been ever since it was released: It's damn good. I'm not going to say it's best, because that's a matter of opinion, but it's certainly a top contender. An absolutely huge world to explore, a massive community, clean visuals that are nice to look at and almost any computer can run, smooth gameplay, and an entertaining story. Games got it all, and until another dev can either top that or find a way to improve the basic scheme of things while still remaining accessible to newbies, then WOW is going to stay king.
What we need are more smaller, specialized MMO like EVE online, which doesn't even 'try' to be anything at all like WOW and instead appeals to its own unique community and fans. Sure it'll never have as many subscribers as WOW, but it's still raking in a shit-ton of cash and has ensured its own place as a long-term investment for the players.
Games don't have to have subscribers in the millions in order to be successful.
Personally I'm keeping an eye on both The Secret World and Black Prophecy, both appeal to me in different ways and the lead dev for the Secret World was the same man behind one of my all time favorite series: The Longest Journey. So I'm certainly intrigued. Also curious to see what Runic Games eventually come out with. Torchlight was damn fun, and I'm eager to see if they can truly pull off gameplay like that in a free-to-play MMO like they promise.
I don't think any of them even stand a remote chance of 'beating' WOW, but then they don't have to. Personally I just hope they'll be fun!
As for WOW itself, hate it all you like but there's a reason it's top dog right now and has been ever since it was released: It's damn good. I'm not going to say it's best, because that's a matter of opinion, but it's certainly a top contender. An absolutely huge world to explore, a massive community, clean visuals that are nice to look at and almost any computer can run, smooth gameplay, and an entertaining story. Games got it all, and until another dev can either top that or find a way to improve the basic scheme of things while still remaining accessible to newbies, then WOW is going to stay king.
I will quote Yahtzee here, "Some times popular things are popular for a reason. Because their good..." and while he might like it he acknowledge as the best MMORGP. And for the exspanion packs coming out when people get bored of the old content? THATS HOW ITS SUPPOST TO WORK!
I still argue that they should take the "game" part out of MMORPG.
Because in practice, the "gameplay" is more of a series of extremely menial tasks repeated ad-nauseum.
No, the real sinister genius behind WoW and other MMOs (both new and old) is that they abuse instinctive human behavior (positive reinforcement from accomplishing "difficult" tasks) to turn a profit.
WoW is a game based on the most basic pattern recognition possible. Your tanks keep major threats off of the game enders, your healers keep the tanks alive. That scenario applies to 100% of the group-centric content, and it's even more shallow for solo quest content.
I could understand it if the content challenged the player's skill, but WoW isn't about skill; it's mostly about the numbers.
So what the vast majority of the game boils down to is doing the same busywork over and over for the privilege of being able to do it again. Circular design logic, and the game offers no closure so there is no logical end to this madness short of giving it up; which most people can't because the game preys on a psychological response (just like an addiction). Then there's the social pressure: "Hey, if you don't want to get left behind by your guild/friends (the sole ray of light in this mess), YOU MUST GRIND."
That isn't a game. It's pure evil. And everyone wants a piece of the action because it's the most profitable game ever made.
Because in practice, the "gameplay" is more of a series of extremely menial tasks repeated ad-nauseum.
No, the real sinister genius behind WoW and other MMOs (both new and old) is that they abuse instinctive human behavior (positive reinforcement from accomplishing "difficult" tasks) to turn a profit.
WoW is a game based on the most basic pattern recognition possible. Your tanks keep major threats off of the game enders, your healers keep the tanks alive. That scenario applies to 100% of the group-centric content, and it's even more shallow for solo quest content.
I could understand it if the content challenged the player's skill, but WoW isn't about skill; it's mostly about the numbers.
So what the vast majority of the game boils down to is doing the same busywork over and over for the privilege of being able to do it again. Circular design logic, and the game offers no closure so there is no logical end to this madness short of giving it up; which most people can't because the game preys on a psychological response (just like an addiction). Then there's the social pressure: "Hey, if you don't want to get left behind by your guild/friends (the sole ray of light in this mess), YOU MUST GRIND."
That isn't a game. It's pure evil. And everyone wants a piece of the action because it's the most profitable game ever made.
QCX said:
Ok, you explained what we do with EVERYTHING.
you keep going to work (hitting the lever) so you can buy few things you do need, but an expanse of shit you dont need. This applies to everything you do.
Um... That's a lot of opinions and stereotypes there.Angelblaze said:
Okay, first of all, WoW is probably the best MMO I've ever played. Now, before you peg me for a fanboy, I've always lost interest in MMO's. I've tried Aion, Star Wars Galaxies, 2 Moons; you name it, I've tried it. But after about a week of each, I've always lost interest. WoW was the first MMO that I've played that kept my attention for months. Again, hold off on your fanboy accusations. After I got to lvl 60 with my Pally(PALLY'S RULE, *****!!!) I did my usual thing and got bored and went off to play a single-player game. But I still believe it to be an amazing game. I don't know why you, and other people, feel the need to get rid of WoW. You keep talking about how it isn't innovative and holding the gaming industry back. But who cares? It's a GREAT GAME. Why does a game NEED to be innovative. There are plenty of games that tried to be creative and turned out to be utter shit(Alpha Protocol comes to mind). Why the Hell do you want to fix something that's not broken?
And that "nerds liking WoW" comment... Come on man, that's just insulting.
And I've yet to meet Naruto, Tidus, or Cloud in World of Warcraft OR Mass Effect, so I have to ask; What are you smoking?
Who bought a wii and never hooked it up? I am not asking as a fanboy, but a really confused gamer who has hooked up every console he has ever brought home.Angelblaze said:
OT: WoW is big but that doesn't mean they're invincible. People are always going to try to push WoW off the mountain of market share they own and claim it with their own new MMO. If the market is dead because WoW is huge then nobody would have made another MMO after EQ2.