Poll: "The quality and innovation of Japanese video games has fallen behind their Western counterparts."

[Lord Krunk]

Remember, the demo brought out for Ninja Gaiden 1 was the most linear part of the game, and they gave you most of the best weapons in the game in the first level.

I'm just saying, don't judge a book by it's cover. Although, it will be interesting to see whether it impresses.

On topic, I think both are brilliant, most Japanese games are cliches of older Japanese games, but then again, so are Western games. Even then, they both occasionally surprise with a real innovative gem. As a result, neither are worse than the other, but that means neither are better either.

 

[Lord Krunk]

Really though, if FF games are still selling in the millions, and MGS4 is the most anticipated title of the year, then they must be doing something right.

I thought Hello Kitty Online was the most anticipated title of the year...

For pedophiles.

 

[Johnn Johnston]

I find Japanese games to be quite repetitive. I find (although I am by no means an expert in Japanese games) that they attempt to be like the latest big hit and rip it off a bit.

That said, western games are slightly repetitive (i.e. GTA clones, Halo and Call of Duty rip-offs etc etc).

 

[pigeon_of_doom]

I find Japanese games to be quite repetitive. I find (although I am by no means an expert in Japanese games) that they attempt to be like the latest big hit and rip it off a bit.

That said, western games are slightly repetitive (i.e. GTA clones, Halo and Call of Duty rip-offs etc etc).

Isn't that more likely to be the result of attempting to produce products with international appeal rather than the result of different cultures?

I don't believe the standards of either cultures video games are particularly high. They are both in the same state of stagnation as far as I am concerned. Nintendo still look like the best bet to turn this around with the wii imo but I am indifferent to almost all games that have come out recently. When was the last time a game really tried to toy with fundamental features of gaming? Okami? Wii Sports? I think games like COD4 or GTA's quality, scope and scale may well be very well executed but any real innovation will come from Japan.

 

[Joeshie]

When was the last time a game really tried to toy with fundamental features of gaming?

Portal

 

[meisnewbie]

I think such a question is a waste of time when you consider what Americans buy.

1) Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas -- 9.4 million
2) Guitar Hero 3 -- 8.2 million
3) Madden NFL 07 -- 7.7 million
4) Madden NFL 06 -- 7.7 million
5) Grand Theft Auto: Vice City -- 7.3 million
6) Halo 2 -- 6.61 million
7) Madden NFL 08 -- 6.6 million
8) Call of Duty 4: Modern Warfare -- 6.25 million
9) Grand Theft Auto III -- 6.2 million
10) Madden NFL 2005 -- 6.1 million

Analysis: there are 3 GTA games and 4 Madden games. There is one Guitar Hero, one Halo, and one Call of Duty.

There are no original games there, only sequels/remakes (eh, dunno what you would call the madden games).

(Source: http://www.forbes.com/2008/06/03/top-video-games-tech-personal-cx_bc_0603video.html)

Sure you can claim that Japan is "falling behind" if you consider only JRPGS against all American releases.

...But that would be ignoring the big picture

 

[Joeshie]

I think such a question is a waste of time when you consider what Americans buy.

1) Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas -- 9.4 million
2) Guitar Hero 3 -- 8.2 million
3) Madden NFL 07 -- 7.7 million
4) Madden NFL 06 -- 7.7 million
5) Grand Theft Auto: Vice City -- 7.3 million
6) Halo 2 -- 6.61 million
7) Madden NFL 08 -- 6.6 million
8) Call of Duty 4: Modern Warfare -- 6.25 million
9) Grand Theft Auto III -- 6.2 million
10) Madden NFL 2005 -- 6.1 million

Analysis: there are 3 GTA games and 4 Madden games. There is one Guitar Hero, one Halo, and one Call of Duty.

There are no original games there, only sequels/remakes (eh, dunno what you would call the madden games).

(Source: http://www.forbes.com/2008/06/03/top-video-games-tech-personal-cx_bc_0603video.html)

Sure you can claim that Japan is "falling behind" if you consider only JRPGS against all American releases.

...But that would be ignoring the big picture

Honestly, if you look at what the Japanese are buying, it makes the American list look fantastic.

 

[laikenf]

I think such a question is a waste of time when you consider what Americans buy.

1) Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas -- 9.4 million
2) Guitar Hero 3 -- 8.2 million
3) Madden NFL 07 -- 7.7 million
4) Madden NFL 06 -- 7.7 million
5) Grand Theft Auto: Vice City -- 7.3 million
6) Halo 2 -- 6.61 million
7) Madden NFL 08 -- 6.6 million
8) Call of Duty 4: Modern Warfare -- 6.25 million
9) Grand Theft Auto III -- 6.2 million
10) Madden NFL 2005 -- 6.1 million

Analysis: there are 3 GTA games and 4 Madden games. There is one Guitar Hero, one Halo, and one Call of Duty.

There are no original games there, only sequels/remakes (eh, dunno what you would call the madden games).

(Source: http://www.forbes.com/2008/06/03/top-video-games-tech-personal-cx_bc_0603video.html)

Sure you can claim that Japan is "falling behind" if you consider only JRPGS against all American releases.

...But that would be ignoring the big picture

Honestly, if you look at what the Japanese are buying, it makes the American list look fantastic.

Do you know where to get that info.?

 

[meisnewbie]

"Honestly, if you look at what the Japanese are buying, it makes the American list look fantastic."

Yes that's very nice and all, but where the hell are you getting that information and on what basis are you judging it on?

(I know, and I agree it isn't pretty either, but one should support their opinion shouldn't they?)

 

[Galduke]

In terms of widely released commercial titles, Japanese games tend to be more "innovative" with the games Arbre mentioned, but "innovative" here is being measured by "different", in the same sense that showing an obscure porno flick at an indie film festival is "innovative". As a whole, western development has continually progressed with each major game mechanic that works and each generation of new technologies released, while Japan can still reproduce the majority of it's games on the SNES or Playstation. Consider the idea that Katamari Damacy is nothing more than Marble Madness with a slight twist and Lumines is still just a Tetris clone when all is said and done. What I'm trying to get at is that Japan as a whole has been lagging behind since their true glory days in the 16-bit genre. While Japan may produce one or two completely new game ideas a year, they will either be dropped do to financial failure or run down by one repetitive sequel after another (Viewtiful Joe, anyone?). For the most part, the latest Madden game will be eons more innovative than the next visual novel or DDR.

The argument of deeper character/story development vs open world gameplay/freedom is ridiculous. This idea is propagated by FF7 fanboys and other such weeaboos. Yes, Shin Megami Tensei games are interesting, but the majority of Japanese games are even more repetitive than "Random WW2 Shooter #543135796". There are more dark-emo-guys-with-maybe-amnesia and perky-girls-old-enough-to-drink-but-have-the-body-of-a-middle-schooler sharing some sort of dark past or traumatic event than there are WW2 documentaries on the History Channel. I think the best example of a game that has what most people would consider "open" gameplay and a "deep" plot (whatever the f*&$ that is) would be Mass Effect, a WESTERN game. Reflecting on some comments from various weeaboos I've heard throughout the years, a "deep" plot is one in a fantasy/scifi/steampunk setting where a love story/triangle is a MUST and the villain must be connected to the protagonist or love interest, and the characters are about as deep as being a tsundere ,meganekko or other such archetypes will allow them to be.

Now to end this Japan kill-fest of a comment on an ironic note, of the next four games I intend on buying, three of them would be counted as JRPGs.

 

[end_boss]

Well, I don't play JRPGs, because I gave them a shot and they failed to captivate me. However, I did hold Japanese games in high regard due to the innovation of Katamari Damacy, the atmosphere and approach of Shadow of the Colossus, and the general awesomeness of Okami. And so, I can't really think of many games since then, let alone Japanese, whose premise has captivated my attention before I even got to play it. I loved the idea and premise of Katamari. I loved the notion of 16 boss battles and no minor enemies in Shadow of the Colossus. I saw a trailer for Okami and thought that the spell casting system was fresh and original, and the art style was fantastic. Most games these days haven't been catching my attention other than "hey, I like that series and the new one's coming out. Maybe I'll check it out." I'm just waiting for ANY new upstart game to storm in with a fresh and original idea.

 

[meisnewbie]

"For the most part, the latest Madden game will be eons more innovative than the next visual novel or DDR."

Question but how many Visual Novels have you played? Would you claim that something such as Clannad (High School Romance) would be less different compared to Higurashi (Murder mystery / thriller in small town) than each madden game differs? Ever17 (Survival story in a theme park gone wrong) to Planterian (Post apocalyptic narrative)?

" The argument of deeper character/story development vs open world gameplay/freedom is ridiculous. This idea is propagated by FF7 fanboys and other such weeaboos. There are more dark-emo-guys-with-maybe-amnesia and perky-girls-old-enough-to-drink-but-have-the-body-of-a-middle-schooler sharing some sort of dark past or traumatic event than there are WW2 documentaries on the History Channel. "

Your ad hominem arguments and loaded language do an excellent job of activeely avoiding to address the point better than any politician could. I commend you for the sheer amount of audacity and overwhelming ambition it must have taken to write so much but have so little support for it!

"Consider the idea that Katamari Damacy is nothing more than Marble Madness with a slight twist and Lumines is still just a Tetris clone when all is said and done. "

Yes and Civilization is Chess gone wild, Team Fortress 2 is Unreal Tournment in Toon town and Oblivion is just Solstice with RPG elements!

With all your claims that Japan is crashing and that America is doing backflips through the air while juggling ten drunk flamingos on nitrous oxide, you have yet to provide concrete data that the number of games deemed "innovative" from Japan truly IS decreasing.

Instead, to me you come off as an insipidly sour former jRPG fan who would rather wildly attack those who like the products of other countries in a twisted attempt to display patriotism.

 

[Arbre]

I think such a question is a waste of time when you consider what Americans buy.

1) Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas -- 9.4 million
2) Guitar Hero 3 -- 8.2 million
3) Madden NFL 07 -- 7.7 million
4) Madden NFL 06 -- 7.7 million
5) Grand Theft Auto: Vice City -- 7.3 million
6) Halo 2 -- 6.61 million
7) Madden NFL 08 -- 6.6 million
8) Call of Duty 4: Modern Warfare -- 6.25 million
9) Grand Theft Auto III -- 6.2 million
10) Madden NFL 2005 -- 6.1 million

Analysis: there are 3 GTA games and 4 Madden games. There is one Guitar Hero, one Halo, and one Call of Duty.

There are no original games there, only sequels/remakes (eh, dunno what you would call the madden games).

(Source: http://www.forbes.com/2008/06/03/top-video-games-tech-personal-cx_bc_0603video.html)

Sure you can claim that Japan is "falling behind" if you consider only JRPGS against all American releases.

...But that would be ignoring the big picture

Quality and innovation don't necessarily mesh well with sales.

 

[Silverookami]

...*sigh* One thing that most people have failed to consider is that we only receive a FRACTION of Japanese produced games over here. We can't fully judge how Japanese games stack up against American because most of us posting here can't get a fair view of the true diversity of the Japanese gaming scene. American companies or the American counterparts of Japanese countries tend to only import and take the time to translate and market a game if they think there is a chance of it preforming well and earning money. Basically that means there are many great games unfortunately left by the wayside because they might be too niche to market over here or too involved in things which are culturally distinct as being Japanese and wouldn't translate well for an English speaking market.
I'm not saying this as support for a 'Japanese games are better!' argument, 'cause I don't think that's true. It's a gamer's own personal preference that usually dictates which type of game they perfer. I personally go for RPGs in a lavish setting with unique cisuals and a logn well crafted plot. Naturally this means I tend to choose Japanese games liek FInal Fantasy, Kingdom Hearts and Fatal Frame. A person who is more interested in a fast pace plot driven by action and surprises and given a more gritty realistic visual style will tend to grab an American game.
Both countries have had their share of fresh innovations, but of course they also have their tried and true styles of game developement that appeal to their target audiences. Neither is better or more creative, they're just different from each other. I think we should stop trying to compare and just be thankful we're living in a time where we have such selection and diversity in the types of games available to us.

...Oh and just to be a bit witchy over things...Yeah, go ahead and point out that JRPGs tend to have androgynous emo boys with spikey hair as their stereotypical hero. I feel the same way about pretty much every American game which features the same basic male lead just with a different name copy-pasted each time. The basic hero in American games is just as stereotypical, but no one ever bothers to point that out, while everyone always goes on about how it happens in JRPGs. Get over it! The reason these stereotypes is exist is because it's what the core demographic wants in the games they're buying, so the gaming companies deliver.
...And yes, I want spiky haired little emo boys running about and angsting in the games I play. Why else do you think the game I'm looking forward to most right now is Kingdom Hearts: 358/2 Days?

 

[tendo82]

I think the Japanese development community is less interesting than it once was, however there is one huge caveat to that statement - Nintendo.

The main problem might be that we are receiving both a greater quantity of Japanese titles than before, and that American developers are programming for consoles much more than they once were. So we are seeing a lot of great games and talent that might only have been on PC when the consoles were a more Japan centric endeavor. I think the other thing we overlook is that Dragon Warrior Any Number was just as boring when it came out as it is now, but there weren't so many games, and so we played it and liked it.

 

[InsanityManifest]

Well, I used to work with Japanese students at my college and a few of them were gamers. They were very much in a kind of groupthink mentality when it came to games. To them all Western games were just too "violent". They wanted story and atmosphere. A captivating story that sucked them in and didn't let go.

Melodrama for the sake of melodrama.

It wasn't until I showed them Call of Duty 4 and Bioshock that they started to warm up to western games. If Fallout 3 was out I would have shown them that as well...*sigh*

They don't really get a lot Western games over there either, and translation problems are just as bad there as they are in America.

Take for instance the scene at Call of Duty 4 where you are your fellow SAS have just been knocked loopy by MiGS and it's time to get off the boat. When Captain Price yells "On your feet soldier, we are leaving!" your heart starts racing and you're like "hell yeah! Let's get out of here!"

In Japan, the translation would have been, "Get up, let's go!"

It just wouldn't have had the same affect emotional impact after translation.

Western games really depend on immersion and it's possible to suck Japanese people in, just not easily.

That and their culture is different. "Manly men" are a staple in western games, but it doesn't translate well in Japan, where desirable men are all effeminate.

We want heroes like Chuck Norris and Jack Bauer, they wants heroes like Gackt and Cloud.

And it has been a common complaint here that most JRPG characters look like girls. Hence the huge rabid fangirl base most anime and Jgames have.

 

[Credge]

While Western developers were working on GTA IV, Oblivion, Supreme Commander, and other games with either fantastic gameplay or stories, Japanese developers made more damn JRPGs. How many games where spiky haired emo kids stand in a line and stab monsters can Japan handle? Aren't they sick of this shit yet? I suppose they at least don't put rap music into the games, but instead they fill it with dialogue so bad I want to join the main character for a good wrist-slitting.

Eh?

You see, us Westerners have our own version of the spikey haired protagonist. It's called the gruff, brown short haired protagonist. Take a look at almost every single Western FPS and you'll notice that 99% of them fit the bill. Same with our RPG's.

But please allow me to go over each of the games you listed and explain why they aren't really anything extraordinary.

GTA4 was expected. It's the Halo 2 of the GTA series. It has the same game play elements of the other games in its series with some slight changes. There's nothing innovative or new about it and it's, very much, our JRPG.

Oblivion was pretty terrible. The only thing it had going for it was a shell. The combat was stale, the story was bland, the dialog was delivered poorly... the game was just executed very poorly. From Morrowind to Oblivion we saw very little upgrade aside from graphics.

Supreme Commander, while a decent game online, was a pretty poor single player game and, once you figure out how to hex your buildings for max efficiency, it simply becomes a tech fest. It's still very much like TA, except a whole lot worse.

We Westerners lack innovation, at least in regards to gaming. Every now and then a real gem will come out and then we see a thousand copies of it released. Even more often we'll see a series suffer Final Fantasy syndrome (Tony Hawk, Guitar Hero, Command and Conquer, etc) and the market will be flooded with nothing buts.

The Japanese, though, are off making more than just a thousand JRPGs. Mario, anyone?

 

[Archaeology Hat]

Saying Mario is new and innovative is like saying that beer is new and innovative. Sure, someone might come and brew a new variety of beer every so often, and beer is nice... but it's hardly new.

 

[Credge]

Saying Mario is new and innovative is like saying that beer is new and innovative. Sure, someone might come and brew a new variety of beer every so often, and beer is nice... but it's hardly new.

At least every Mario game adds something new to the table to try to spice things up, yeah? I can't say the same thing about the majority of other games and their sequels. You most certainly don't hear the word 'fresh' tossed around when you talk about games like GTA4, Oblivion, Tony Hawk, ETC... yet, somehow, you do when you talk about a new Mario game.

Weird.