Poll: The Venus Project

[Iron Lightning]

This seems to be based on the assumption that resource scarcity is an artificial construct and we have enough resources for everyone if only we would share. This is a very bold claim that, from the parts of the website that I have read, is pretty much unsubstantiated.

Their best example is the production of 90000 military aircraft per year by the United States during World War II. It's true that we accomplished this feat cheaply (relative to the monetary cost of simply buying those airplanes from external manufacturers) because of the global abundance of aluminum (which is the most abundant metal on Earth) but this fact is certainly not evidence that all resources are in abundance.

People in, for example, Uganda are not starving because the people at the top are themselves consuming the country's supply of food. They're starving because food is in scarcity. We're already well past our planet's natural carrying capacity of 2 billion people due to the invention of industrial nitrogen fixation. Any resource which is in such abundance that there is enough of it to satisfy everyone's wants has no monetary value and is thus not sold. Air is not sold. The only reason we pay for water is because of the costs of chemically cleaning it, shooting it through the pipes, and maintenance of the facilities which perform those actions.

 

[SvenSirupSon]

Did he promise that the Venus Project = Utopia ?
Not sure the Venus Project would be close to Utopia, still far from Brave New World
--- (You are guys really going to use Science Fiction to argue against this?)

Anyway, Yes Sounds wonderful,
but it is not practical with all the greedy lot of people on Earth
To do this we would all have to wake up one day and say, Yes Ill give up all my possessions.
Surely we will have all the poor with them here and
the rich, no they wont cause they live good and wont give it up.

I see people talk about this Venus Project would be corrupted?
Well... Have Humanity ever produced the non corruptible and self de-corrupting Government?
Now there is a thing we have to make before we can even hope to guess were Utopia might be.

No wont be democracy... its self re-corrupting.
Rather look towards the Scientific method, now THATS how you keep knowledge clean from corruption.

 

[sexbutler]

I've talked with a lot of people about this before and an idea that keeps coming up is to start up a prototype city, which is where Jacque wants to take this first. I think that it really could happen. I came across these 2 things

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masdar_City
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crystal_Island

Masdar City is being built as we speak. Crystal Island was only stalled by the GFC. Masdar City is so close to the Venus Project it's almost sad. I think that if we could integrate manufacturing industries (steel, concrete, plastics, solar cells, etc.) into this type of project, then using the resources of the city, the city could build a copy of itself and short circuit the economic barriers to something like this. In short you'd have a self contained, self sustaining and exponentially expanding society.

 

[thejboy88]

I would vote against it.

To me, humankind advances and grows through conflict and competition.

That's why I've always had issue with the idealised "utopia" worlds that people want so much.

If people do not compete for what little there is, and if everything is provided, what is there to strive for?

How will people improve themselves if there is literally no reason to improve yourself from your needs being met?

 

[steeple]

well, that is where humanity should end up...

its not thats new of a concept, just one that people either fear to think about (mostly the rich capitalists), or simply cant vision it

 

[Zarmi]

Impossible. Any sort of utopia is uattainable due to the way humans strive for more power, and always want to be better. Hence why the communistic utopia can't exist either. It's a beautiful thought, but an impossible one.

 

[Smooth Operator]

Can't work yet, we can't get past our primeval greed and need for violent conflict, so the Venus Project is for now only a dream.
Sadly natural evolution doesn't quite keep up with the industrial one, we just need to survive a couple million years.

Or to rip off Bioshock 2: "Utopia is not a place, but a people"

 

[Biosophilogical]

well, that is where humanity should end up...

its not thats new of a concept, just one that people either fear to think about (mostly the rich capitalists), or simply cant vision it

So ... communism? That's effectively what this boils down to, the supply exceeds the demand, so everyone can have everything, so no-one is above anyone else within the society in terms of resources. Calling it "The Venus Project" is either a way to go "I came up with this idea all by myself, La la la la!", or to try and circumvent the knee-jerk reaction that people seem to ahve towards communism.

One flaw, people need to progress naturally towards this state, they need to be ready for it on a psychological and social level. Trying to force it will only make it crumble into rubble, no matter how good it sounds on paper.

 

[thiosk]

This garbage has been around for decades. The concept has been called "post-scarcity" in the past. And is utterly unattainable without fantastic investment of technology and artificial intelligence.

Look it up. Its on wikipedia even, i just found it. It links the venus project.

Idea: donate to me all your money and resources, and I'll continue on the path to making sure we actually get investment in the automated mining, orbital solar, computer, and intelligent dolphin breeding technology we'll need to achieve such a thing.

The sad reality is that most people are pretty terrible. Dirty, rude, unintelligent, violent, and lacking the kind of foresight necessary to actually accomplish such a society.

We will tell those people that the robots have taken over, but its really we who control the robots and plan to live in the post-scarcity future.

 

[Pegghead]

Sounds like playing a game using hacks, where's the fun in that?

 

[steeple]

well, that is where humanity should end up...

its not thats new of a concept, just one that people either fear to think about (mostly the rich capitalists), or simply cant vision it

So ... communism? That's effectively what this boils down to, the supply exceeds the demand, so everyone can have everything, so no-one is above anyone else within the society in terms of resources. Calling it "The Venus Project" is either a way to go "I came up with this idea all by myself, La la la la!", or to try and circumvent the knee-jerk reaction that people seem to ahve towards communism.

One flaw, people need to progress naturally towards this state, they need to be ready for it on a psychological and social level. Trying to force it will only make it crumble into rubble, no matter how good it sounds on paper.

I agree with you on most of what you said, but I wont call it a flaw, since its more of a "condition".
compare it with democracy: the places where democracy was actually established properly were the places in which the people themselfs demanded for it and rebelled to get it, such as the US, france, and possibly england (it wasnt an actual revolution, but it was done in a similar manner). now compare that with the weimar republic, and probably any place where the democratic ideals were intoduced by foreign intervention: they didn't last.

same thing with this "ultimate communism" idea: it has to be demanded by the people themself, and that will only happen once the infrastructure to support it will exist...

so basically, not a flaw, but more of a "natural" path to creation

 

[Nickolai77]

I think first we need more technological developments in nano-technology, robotics and a greater presence in space before we can start thinking of abandoning the current system we have now, and shift towards a post-scarcity society. The Venus Project is admirable, but way too premature.

 

[willofbob]

I don't trust this. Now, call me a cunic, but there is no way this would work, society would collapse under the col efficient rule of our mechanical overlords. We would become complacent and lazy, but what if the robots break? then we lose the ability to do things for ourselves and this naiive vision for a perfect world implodes

 

[Biosophilogical]

well, that is where humanity should end up...

its not thats new of a concept, just one that people either fear to think about (mostly the rich capitalists), or simply cant vision it

So ... communism? That's effectively what this boils down to, the supply exceeds the demand, so everyone can have everything, so no-one is above anyone else within the society in terms of resources. Calling it "The Venus Project" is either a way to go "I came up with this idea all by myself, La la la la!", or to try and circumvent the knee-jerk reaction that people seem to ahve towards communism.

One flaw, people need to progress naturally towards this state, they need to be ready for it on a psychological and social level. Trying to force it will only make it crumble into rubble, no matter how good it sounds on paper.

I agree with you on most of what you said, but I wont call it a flaw, since its more of a "condition".
compare it with democracy: the places where democracy was actually established properly were the places in which the people themselfs demanded for it and rebelled to get it, such as the US, france, and possibly england (it wasnt an actual revolution, but it was done in a similar manner). now compare that with the weimar republic, and probably any place where the democratic ideals were intoduced by foreign intervention: they didn't last.

same thing with this "ultimate communism" idea: it has to be demanded by the people themself, and that will only happen once the infrastructure to support it will exist...

so basically, not a flaw, but more of a "natural" path to creation

Bingo Baby! That's exactly what I meant (I worded it poorly). The ideal utopia cannot be forced, because a trait of it being the 'utopia' is the conditions which caused it to be. It has to be a natural progression of the human condition. It shouldn't be 'We want communism", it should be "We want humanity and the global economy to progress in this direction", which should just happen to be communism.

 

[steeple]

Bingo Baby! That's exactly what I meant (I worded it poorly). The ideal utopia cannot be forced, because a trait of it being the 'utopia' is the conditions which caused it to be. It has to be a natural progression of the human condition. It shouldn't be 'We want communism", it should be "We want humanity and the global economy to progress in this direction", which should just happen to be communism.

then it seem I misunderstood you the first time, my bad.

and it would be funny if this guy claims that he originated the idea, since it was probably exists for many many years...

it would be as if someone from the 17th century claiming he invented the three natural rights...

 

[Kaarnage]

At what point do miserable burly gentlemen start patrolling the streets wearing diving suits and carrying the latest Black & Decker?

 

[zehydra]

Lol I'm glad OP added the "Brave New World" option.

That's exactly the direction this thing sounds like, and Brave New World society is a terrible idea. People WANT to be free.

People do want to be free, and they have the right to. Is the Brave New World any more fucked up than the one we're in? Is it any worse? Is it any more oppressive? Instead of World Controllers we have Rupert Murdoch. Instead of hedonism we have neo-liberalism. At least the Brave New World tries to make us happy, it's better than the one we're in.

In Brave New World, anyone who isn't happy is more or less considered "defective"

In Brave New World, people are treated like products, not people.

 

[Nimcha]

I think the best place for this kind of society is indeed Venus!

 

[standokan]

Humans are flawed and easily corrupted, therefore no such utopia could ever exist, it starts off with a nice idea but then the leader becomes an asshole and everything goes titanic, like what happened with Communism.