Tolkien is Tolkien, you never mess with what the man says, he basically wrote the laws, books, and bi laws, and Commandments of fantasy writing and worlds in general, but I can question what I take from it right? From what I've learned from elves over the years they are tall, fair skinned, people that excel in archery, worship nature, and were extremely prosperous until humans came in and f***** up their s***. Sounds like America before England and Portugal and evryone else got here. Anyone else think this was intentional or just coincidental?
Poll: This may sound stupid, but are Elves an allegory for Native Americans?
- Thread starter Hectix777
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I see them more as the "civilized" world of an advanced culture (like the elves, or the Roman Empire) being ruined by barbarians (men, or Germanic tribes). They are still around, but much weaker afterwords (Byzantium?). I am no lore buff, but I think that makes a bit more sense.
Love that poll.
To be fair on humans, in fantasy they f*** up everyone's s***. I've always seen elves as a superior race to humans but horribly outnumbered by them. Not sure what that comes in real world however. You may be onto something here though.
To be fair on humans, in fantasy they f*** up everyone's s***. I've always seen elves as a superior race to humans but horribly outnumbered by them. Not sure what that comes in real world however. You may be onto something here though.
I am peaty sure that is not the case. I think Tolkien was drawing from Anglo-Saxon mythology. Also Tolkien denied any allegorical reading of his work (excluding Leaf by Nigle an shot story that has no elves). Also I don't think elves hold up to the Native American analogy. Elves being good at archery as a trope came after Tolkien. While Legolas was an archer many other elves fought with swords. Also Elves taught men most everything they knew. Nature Worship would also be to simple. They were closer to the earth because they lived forever while human souls always sought outside the world, but did not worship the nature. Tolkien did establish his own gods for middle earth and the elves new them, but never really worshiped them in the way we understand it.
Hmm... I think that elves evolved into that state from what Tolkien describes. I mean, his Elves still lived in houses built on trees, however, they didn't worship nature- yep, they were close to the nature, but not in a religious way. The the D&D came and made elves piss weak but excelent at archery and magic; if I'm not mistaken, Tolkien's elves were much better than humans in every aspect (Not counting the people like Aragorn), not only this- this was made because of balance issues in game.
In Witcher universe (not sure if it's in the games too, I'm going by the books) the elves are generally better than humans, but slowly dying out, due to racial attacks from the humans.
I mean that Elves in general symbolize something like a "Once proud, yet now decaying Civilization" Something like Atlantis and the like.
EDIT: Some typos...
In Witcher universe (not sure if it's in the games too, I'm going by the books) the elves are generally better than humans, but slowly dying out, due to racial attacks from the humans.
I mean that Elves in general symbolize something like a "Once proud, yet now decaying Civilization" Something like Atlantis and the like.
EDIT: Some typos...
Depends where. In Witcher (and i mean books here, because games are set further in time and many things had changed) for example, they are based on Indians (sorry if this term offends you, but in my country it's not offensive in any way and is the only term we have for them), while in a more traditional Tolkienesque setting there are some similarities but overall they are a very different nation.
Elves are inspired by Elves ...
At first they were from Norse Mythology (where Tolkien took a lot of inspiration) they were almost god-like entity and some human had the chance to reborn as elves. (Side note there were already Light Elves and Dark Elves in the Norse Myths)
Later, with Christianism, they became merged with the Fairies, becoming invisible to the eye micro-organisms (like a lot of Norse creatures) that lived in forests and rocks.
Then, with Romantism, the Elves have been described as very beautiful peoples that looked really young, a bit like Nymphs.
And Tolkien created the actual standard of Elves mixing a bit of every or the above.
So, no, they are not supposed to represent native americans.
At first they were from Norse Mythology (where Tolkien took a lot of inspiration) they were almost god-like entity and some human had the chance to reborn as elves. (Side note there were already Light Elves and Dark Elves in the Norse Myths)
Later, with Christianism, they became merged with the Fairies, becoming invisible to the eye micro-organisms (like a lot of Norse creatures) that lived in forests and rocks.
Then, with Romantism, the Elves have been described as very beautiful peoples that looked really young, a bit like Nymphs.
And Tolkien created the actual standard of Elves mixing a bit of every or the above.
So, no, they are not supposed to represent native americans.
If a link exists then you can make it, whether the author intended it or not - but given the size of the lore that he created I highly doubt everything was pulled from his arse. Having said that, its a little broad so I wouldn't say they specifically were the inspiration.
And the characteristics you laid out don't exactly remind me of Native Americans (bar the last one).
And the characteristics you laid out don't exactly remind me of Native Americans (bar the last one).
Um, that doesn't sound like America at all. Last time I checked it was full of fairly short, dark skinned people, with a wide variety of battle tactics, religions, and economic systems.Hectix777 said:
Maybe there's some extended universe material I'm missing.
Coincidental. Elves represent the ideal sections of humanity in Tolkien's time; physically fit, intellectually advanced, and artistic. It's more about different faculties of humanity (dwarves being industry, elves being medicine & art, orcs being greed & hatred). Or at least that's my opinion.
yeah, like those before me said. Tolkien wasn't an American and his story telling started with him making up stories for his kids. So I think the elves would more likely be fairy fantasy creatures.
It's an interesting thought but I don't think it was something Tolkien himself was going for
It's an interesting thought but I don't think it was something Tolkien himself was going for
Elves don't tend to get top billing as the primitives being overtaken by advanced technology. If the Dwarves were always exterminating the elves via advanced war machines it'd seem more plausible though.
any alligory about what happened to the native americans would be fairly modern.
I dubt that the native americans were the first people to be given that treatment.
I dubt that the native americans were the first people to be given that treatment.
Sorry, got to disagree. I never really saw the parallel and (may Tolkien forgive me) I always had the understanding that the different races weren't all that original: dwarfs were exaggerated men, hobbits were exaggerated children and elves were exaggerated women.
Huh..... I get that Elves have been used as an allegory for racial bigotry and injustice in many different (middle earth and NOT middle earth) fantasy worlds. But honestly, I never made the Native American connection. I always took it to be a general allegory. But I think that's a perfectly reasonable (but also sad) way of viewing it.
Ofcourse then there's the whole "march of mechanization and industrialism, destroying the natural 'magic' of the world" metaphor that I think Elves also represent, in varying degrees depending upon the world.
Ofcourse then there's the whole "march of mechanization and industrialism, destroying the natural 'magic' of the world" metaphor that I think Elves also represent, in varying degrees depending upon the world.