Poll: This may sound stupid, but are Elves an allegory for Native Americans?

[Nieroshai]

Tolkien's portrayal of the elves was that of a species who were meant to be the spiritual leaders of the world, but whose time had come. I don't remember the silmarillion well, but I think it was elves that started the process that led to the end of the second age. They intentionally willed the land to Men because they felt their time had come to return to their homeland across the sea. Men did not force them out in LotR.

 

[GoldenFish]

I've read books where native American have been replaced with elf like creatures but I would definitely not say Tolkien based his elves off of them at all. They seem very different. While native Americans worship nature as you say, the Elves however have understanding of "gods" and nature beyond human comprehension. Elves are also more civilised while as far as I know native Americans weren't. Elves also are generally better at everything (EVERYTHING) while I wouldn't say that about Native Americans.

 

[emeraldrafael]

Sounds like anywhere before anyone came to impose their rules. The native people of England, Americas, Africa, etc etc etc.

though native americans specifically were darker than Europeans (for the most part).

EDIT:

... Elves are also more civilised while as far as I know native Americans weren't. ...

Civilized how so? native Americans had an understanding of hierarchy, and in fact governments. THey understood technology, farming, hunting, gathering. They had the concept of something more than them and higher reasoning. Theres even been <url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cahokia>cities speculated to being on par or even larger than cities such as London and Paris. The fact that they didnt have gunpowder wasnt their fault more so than they had the land working against them. Things like that traveled easier in Europe because you had to go longitudinally. So thats the same weather patterns and land structure. America had to go latitudinally which made it harder to adjust to different climates and landforms.

 

[Owyn_Merrilin]

Apparently, very few people on this site have ever read The Silmarillion, let alone delved into any of the volumes of The History of Middle Earth. Tolkiens elves were very, very different from the standard fantasy elf; that mostly comes from D&D, which, as someone else noted above, had as much to do with game balance as it did with faithfulness to old stories.

Anyway, Tolkien's elves were physically stronger than humans, had deeper knowledge, and more powerful magic (such as it was; Arda is actually a very low-magic setting). They also wern't at peace before humans showed up, having been embroiled in a war with Morgoth over the silmarils, which he stole from the Noldor, one of the various races of elves (the division in Tolkien's world is more than just high, wood, and dark -- although the wood elves are technically a type of dark elf in his world. Really complicated.) for quite a while before the humans showed up. The history here is too deep to really get into, but I encourage anyone who can stomach the admittedly terrible prose to go out and read The Silmarillion. The First Age is where all the really cool stuff happened; the average foot soldier at the time could probably wipe the floor with most of the heroes of the Third Age, and the stories about what the heroes of the time did are appropriately more impressive.

 

[Esotera]

Coincidental. Elves represent the ideal sections of humanity in Tolkien's time; physically fit, intellectually advanced, and artistic. It's more about different faculties of humanity (dwarves being industry, elves being medicine & art, orcs being greed & hatred). Or at least that's my opinion.

And consequently, humans have a modicum of all of those attributes which is what makes them... well, human.

OT: I'm not seeing it... pretty much at all.

The main point is the politics. The Native Indian tribes continuously squabbled among themselves, rarely ever allying with their neighbours. Considering their numbers, knowledge of the land(s) and general British contempt for them, had they united, if only briefly, things would've been different.

Anyway, not the point, 'high' elves of typical high fantasy almost never fight among themselves (I am yet to read a story in which they do, and I mean out of true enmity, Malekith the Witchking notwithstanding). They are forever the epitome of racial unity (after a fashion) and civility, part of a doomed utopia, as it were.

I did say that they represent the ideal sections of humanity for the time; they're tall, beautiful, have good medicine, and are fairly damn Aryan (again, times are different now). Basically a utopian view of humanity that is unlikely ever to occur, which is why it's so interesting set against the race of man as a whole.

 

[Hectix777]

I've read books where native American have been replaced with elf like creatures but I would definitely not say Tolkien based his elves off of them at all. They seem very different. While native Americans worship nature as you say, the Elves however have understanding of "gods" and nature beyond human comprehension. Elves are also more civilised while as far as I know native Americans weren't. Elves also are generally better at everything (EVERYTHING) while I wouldn't say that about Native Americans.

Dude, have you studied the Southern Empire's of Latin America? They were the very definition of civility and understanding. The Northern Tribes too. The Aztec empire was probably one of the most advanced and culturally beautiful native empires on Earth. Native Americans managed to figure out things a lot quicker than Anglo-Saxons did. Plus even their concept of war was beautiful. They never killed an enemy because they saw it as a wasted life that could've been sacrificed to their gods, a little barbaric but with some real beauty behind it.

 

[badgersprite]

I think elves are an allegory for elves. They've been around in European mythology for a very long time. Tolkien just reinvented them.

If anything, I always associate Tolkien-esque elves with ancient Celts and Druids more than anything else.

That doesn't mean they're not applicable to be interpreted that way. Tolkien's works are meant to be widely applicable. I just don't think there was ever any kind of intentional allegory.

 

[Alaster Angelo]

I saw several similarities between Dragon Age elves and Native Americans for what it's worth.

 

[MightyRabbit]

Tolkien didn't write in allegory. His Elves were meant to be Elves. Still, he did believe that applicability was viable, i.e. that it's perfectly valid to take something and equate it to something else.

So you can read them as being similar to Native Americans, though that's not the intent.

 

[Djinni]

Tolkien's elves are "High Elves" (as opposed to Keebler type tiny elves). They are based on the Sidhe ("shee") of Celtic mythology.

 

[Rad Party God]

Native americans and other american indian races (including aztecs, mayans and other cultures) were far more interesting than the boring "Oh!, we're soooo perfect, handsome and immortals that we spend all of our time hugging trees and practice archery and making no fucking progress in humanity, not like you, lowly non pointy ear mortals" elves.

Elves are pricks.

 

[Zetatrain]

Tolkien is Tolkien, you never mess with what the man says, he basically wrote the laws, books, and bi laws, and Commandments of fantasy writing and worlds in general, but I can question what I take from it right? From what I've learned from elves over the years they are tall, fair skinned, people that excel in archery, worship nature, and were extremely prosperous until humans came in and f***** up their s***. Sounds like America before England and Portugal and evryone else got here. Anyone else think this was intentional or just coincidental?

While I admit I don't have an extensive knowledge about Tolkien lore, were there ever any major wars fought between the elves and humans. From what I understand the elven population in Middle Earth was dwindling, because they were moving on to another continent across the sea. With the Native Americans, their numbers were dwindling, because they were being wiped out due to wars with the European settlers and diseases they brought.

While the other traits you mentioned do seem to fit the Native Americans, I'm sure that there are plenty of other races, civilizations, and mythological figures that shared similar traits.

 

[GoldenFish]

Sounds like anywhere before anyone came to impose their rules. The native people of England, Americas, Africa, etc etc etc.

though native americans specifically were darker than Europeans (for the most part).

EDIT:

... Elves are also more civilised while as far as I know native Americans weren't. ...

Civilized how so? native Americans had an understanding of hierarchy, and in fact governments. THey understood technology, farming, hunting, gathering. They had the concept of something more than them and higher reasoning. Theres even been <url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cahokia>cities speculated to being on par or even larger than cities such as London and Paris. The fact that they didnt have gunpowder wasnt their fault more so than they had the land working against them. Things like that traveled easier in Europe because you had to go longitudinally. So thats the same weather patterns and land structure. America had to go latitudinally which made it harder to adjust to different climates and landforms.

Yeah your right I haven't studied native Americans in depth, and it seems you do have quite a knowledge of them but still the way you describe how native Americans were civilised seems to be something the European countries also had. I'm not trying to say native Americans were barbarians or anything but having having disadvantages of land working against them just shows a reason they were perhaps less civilised. Although I don't actually know all that much on the subject.

 

[emeraldrafael]

Sounds like anywhere before anyone came to impose their rules. The native people of England, Americas, Africa, etc etc etc.

though native americans specifically were darker than Europeans (for the most part).

EDIT:

... Elves are also more civilised while as far as I know native Americans weren't. ...

Civilized how so? native Americans had an understanding of hierarchy, and in fact governments. THey understood technology, farming, hunting, gathering. They had the concept of something more than them and higher reasoning. Theres even been <url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cahokia>cities speculated to being on par or even larger than cities such as London and Paris. The fact that they didnt have gunpowder wasnt their fault more so than they had the land working against them. Things like that traveled easier in Europe because you had to go longitudinally. So thats the same weather patterns and land structure. America had to go latitudinally which made it harder to adjust to different climates and landforms.

Yeah your right I haven't studied native Americans in depth, and it seems you do have quite a knowledge of them but still the way you describe how native Americans were civilised seems to be something the European countries also had. I'm not trying to say native Americans were barbarians or anything but having having disadvantages of land working against them just shows a reason they were perhaps less civilised. Although I don't actually know all that much on the subject.

its actually really hard to adjust for nature really. its not being uncivilized. think of it this way. Cranberries (so far as I know) are only grown in the the Southern US, somehwere around georgia/alabama, something like that. In swampy like environments. Oranges are grown in florida (maybe not solely, but the majority, at least the US domestic). Certain animals only live in certain places. You dont see buffalo in the wild woods (well, not often at least), and dairy cows have a hard time in the areas like the desert/arid landscape.

These arent things that humans havent tried to do in other or regions, its just that you cant, at least not immediately. To do it would require a lot of reworking the land, and when you find a spot that hospitable and suits your needs, you odnt go looking for more and the effort to change that landscape (keeping in mind this is assuming that the land can feed your population). really, europe got lucky in that the Arab/Islamic traders could go east to west more easily, otherwise the dark ages would have lasted far longer and they would have been in a somwhat similar spot as the American Natives.

So i wouldnt say they're less civilized. They were just civilized in a different manner and lived a different lifestyle. Lets not forget, at least in North America, European settlers had gotten a lot from these less civilized individuals, which helped lead them to holding that land. And that the population of natives in america at the time we usually think of (Jamestown, Plymouth Rock, etc.) was a tiny fraction of what it truly was because of the small pox epidemic.

...

Sorry, not trying to be a jerk or anyhting. just this kinda stuff was my college US history teacher's major subject of study (mostly the French and Indian/Seven Years War and prior to with the struggling of european settlers).

 

[Volkov]

Tolkien literally didn't give a fuck about the US. That, and he explicitly state multiple times that he hates allegory:

"Other arrangements could be devised according to the tastes or views of those who like allegory or topical reference. But I cordially dislike allegory in all its manifestations, and always have done so since I grew old and wary enough to detect its presence. I much prefer history, true or feigned, with its varied applicability to the thought and experience of readers. I think that many confuse 'applicability' with 'allegory'; but the one resides in the freedom of the reader, and the other in the purposed domination of the author."
(from foreword for LotR).

So the elves most certainly are not an allegory for ANYTHING, but can they be viewed as being applicable to native americans? Probably. Not a particularly good match, compared to, perhaps, the original Roman Empire... but a possible one of course. I've even heard similar theories for pre-Christian slavs and elves.

 

[The_root_of_all_evil]

Middle Earth is based around England.

Dwarves are the Welsh, so I guess that Elves would be Scottish/Irish.

 

[Hectix777]

Sounds like anywhere before anyone came to impose their rules. The native people of England, Americas, Africa, etc etc etc.

though native americans specifically were darker than Europeans (for the most part).

EDIT:

... Elves are also more civilised while as far as I know native Americans weren't. ...

Civilized how so? native Americans had an understanding of hierarchy, and in fact governments. THey understood technology, farming, hunting, gathering. They had the concept of something more than them and higher reasoning. Theres even been <url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cahokia>cities speculated to being on par or even larger than cities such as London and Paris. The fact that they didnt have gunpowder wasnt their fault more so than they had the land working against them. Things like that traveled easier in Europe because you had to go longitudinally. So thats the same weather patterns and land structure. America had to go latitudinally which made it harder to adjust to different climates and landforms.

Yeah your right I haven't studied native Americans in depth, and it seems you do have quite a knowledge of them but still the way you describe how native Americans were civilised seems to be something the European countries also had. I'm not trying to say native Americans were barbarians or anything but having having disadvantages of land working against them just shows a reason they were perhaps less civilised. Although I don't actually know all that much on the subject.

Dude if anything that proves the Native Americans were tougher/superior to Europeans (like the elves were to humans), if conditions were similar for the Native Americans the Native Americans might've been the ones that f***** Europeans s***. Have you seen Chapultepec? This was practically the first EVER example of dredging up land, AND ON SUCH A MASSIVE SCALE! It's like 5 miles in radius built up from the lake of Mexico, way better than any building made by Europeans, maybe even the pyramids.

 

[Veylon]

Apparently, very few people on this site have ever read The Silmarillion, let alone delved into any of the volumes of The History of Middle Earth. Tolkiens elves were very, very different from the standard fantasy elf.

This. It cannot be overstated just how prideful, selfish and badass the Silmarillion Elves were. When the Silmarils were stolen, a good chunk of the Elves said "screw you!" to their own gods face-to-face, slaughtered another good chunk of the Elves to steal their ships, and sailed off to have several epic showdowns with Sauron's boss and his armies of balrogs. They were about as far away from the effete, forest-dwelling, nature-loving stereotype as one could get.

 

[Owyn_Merrilin]

Tolkien is Tolkien, you never mess with what the man says, he basically wrote the laws, books, and bi laws, and Commandments of fantasy writing and worlds in general, but I can question what I take from it right? From what I've learned from elves over the years they are tall, fair skinned, people that excel in archery, worship nature, and were extremely prosperous until humans came in and f***** up their s***. Sounds like America before England and Portugal and evryone else got here. Anyone else think this was intentional or just coincidental?

While I admit I don't have an extensive knowledge about Tolkien lore, were there ever any major wars fought between the elves and humans. From what I understand the elven population in Middle Earth was dwindling, because they were moving on to another continent across the sea. With the Native Americans, their numbers were dwindling, because they were being wiped out due to wars with the European settlers and diseases they brought.

While the other traits you mentioned do seem to fit the Native Americans, I'm sure that there are plenty of other races, civilizations, and mythological figures that shared similar traits.

There weren't any wars explicitly between Elves and Humans, but there were humans who took up arms for Morgoth (and, later, Sauron), and the elves fought against plenty of them. Middle Earth is really a lot more mythological than this thread is giving it credit for. The wars were just about always good vs. evil; there were occasional skirmishes involving bandits, and there was the whole kinslaying deal with the Noldor, but pretty much all large scale combat was between one of the two Dark Lords, and those who opposed them, and just about never between two nations who for some reason couldn't find a peaceful solution for a relatively mundane dispute.

 

[Cain_Zeros]

America before England and Portugal

No Spain? By the way, the English had pretty good bowmen...

True. If anything along those lines they'd be the Celts before the Romans came and fucked their shit up (except the Picts, they fucked the Romans up).

But, as has been said, elves are elves. They're heavily based on Norse mythology, as is most of Middle Earth.