Poll: (TLAB:LOK Discussion) Do the Equalists have a point?

[uneek]

He's taking away peoples natural talent, he may justify it as "They are abusing their powers" however, he wishes to take away the abilities of ALL benders, regardless of whether they are abusing their power or not. This is discrimination against a particular group of people and thus bad.

When I think of Amon and the equalist I just can't help but think about Syndrome from the Incredibles

"I did it without your precious gifts, your oh-so-special powers. I'll give them heroics. I'll give them the most spectacular heroics the world has ever seen!
And when I'm old and I've had my fun, I'll sell my inventions so that everyone can have powers. Everyone can be super! And when everyone's super... no one will be."

How could I have been watching "Legend of Korra" for such a long time and not remember Syndrome's speech. "The Incredibles" is one of my favorite movies.

 

[The Funslinger]

I've never watched Avatar, but going by the information you've supplied, I'd agree with the "Equalists" entirely. Also, that world sounds messed up. "Special" people born with the power to enslave unwilling people, or destroy entire nations like some kind of living nuke? Definitely wrong, and both unfair and dangerous for those without these powers. Even if the current ruling "benders" happen to be relatively benevolent, there is no guarantee that this would remain the case, and it would only take one extremely powerful bender or group of benders to impose their will on the entire world. If there is a way to remove these powers without a mass genocide or other serious negative effects, then I would say it is only right to do so.

Don't listen entirely to the OP. He's ridiculously biased and doesn't have his facts straight. Allow me to straighten some of them for you.

First off I'd like to note that the "special" people actually make up a sizable portion of the population. They aren't a majority, but it's not like there's only a few of them. Additionally, they're ordinary people in every other respect. They have no greater tendency to be "evil" than non-benders.

In regards to the power grabs by a single bender or group of benders, there are other benders who wouldn't want to see such people taking power. And if they fail then the avatar can almost certainly step in and prevent it. In fact, the entire first series is pretty much devoted to the avatar doing just that.

The ability to "enslave" people (bloodbending) is illegal and incredibly rare. There are very few even capable of the feat, let alone know how to do it and are willing to use it. Doing it under any circumstance warrants swift and harsh punishment under the law.

The comet that give firebenders immense power only comes around every 100 years and only lasts a few hours. To destroy a nation with it takes immense numbers and years of planning and it has only been done once against a nation that had no formal military of any sort.

Finally, I'd like to note that there is no real evidence of a correlation between bending ability and political power. There are only two roles that require bending, which are the Fire Lord, who is leader of the Fire Nation, and membership on any of the Air Nomad councils (which doesn't really count since all Air Nomads were naturally benders anyway). Every other nation has no bending requirements for any position. In fact, during Avatar Aang's time, the Earth King and both of the Northern and Southern Water Tribe chiefs were non-benders. Also there have been at least two non-bender council members in the United Republic's brief history. There have quite likely been more that we don't know of yet.

TL;DR: Benders aren't that bad, Lunncal. You're just being misled by a biased OP.

P.S. You should watch A:TLA and LOK. They're some of the greatest animated shows out there.

This is a very good way of explaining it. Taking away someone's ability just because you can't do it is nothing short of spiteful and douchey.

 

[Flames66]

I've never watched Avatar, but going by the information you've supplied, I'd agree with the "Equalists" entirely. Also, that world sounds messed up. "Special" people born with the power to enslave unwilling people, or destroy entire nations like some kind of living nuke? Definitely wrong, and both unfair and dangerous for those without these powers. Even if the current ruling "benders" happen to be relatively benevolent, there is no guarantee that this would remain the case, and it would only take one extremely powerful bender or group of benders to impose their will on the entire world. If there is a way to remove these powers without a mass genocide or other serious negative effects, then I would say it is only right to do so.

This guy

And this guy both had the same idea. There is a reason they are the villains of their respective films.

 

[Suicidejim]

To be honest, I just clicked on this to figure out what the hell TLAB:LOK was supposed to mean.

But yeah, maybe just equalize the people who are being dicks about it. Or figure out a way to give that sort of ability to everyone.

 

[senordesol]

First thing I'd like to point out is that only 1.Tenzin and Tarrlok have been seen bending, we don't know about the other 3 beyond that they are pro-bending. Also the council was shown to at one stage have Sokka as a chairman. Benders have not always been the rulers. The Chief of the Northern Water Tribe wasn't a bender(or he preferred to fight with weapons) and neither was the Earth King. The only reason the Fire Lord is always a fire bender is that they have a monarchy and bending appears to be hereditary.

And I don't think Kiyoshi Island is a good example for your case as the most respected people on that island, the Kiyoshi Warriors, were all non-benders.

Everything from attire to sports is pretty much defined by the bending prowess of the host nation.

2. The attire is less to do with bending and more with culture. You don't wear water tribe clothing because you are a water bender, but because you belong to/associate with the water tribe (See Tenzen's wife, born in the Earth Kingdom but wears the robes of the Air Nomads).

Until now, a non-bender had little recourse to resist any abuses of power by benders apart from 'give them no reason to notice you'.

3.There were several options to physically resist, such as Chi-blocking or simply being a better fighter, and now those electric gloves. Benders are often defeated by non-bender (Mei, Tylee, Kiyoshi Warriors, The Equalists). This argument could be applied to anything. Some people are stronger than me and could abuse there strength, so we should take their natural abilities away?

The fact that the Equalists can so easily subdue so many benders can't of goes against their argument that benders can oppress the non-benders simply with there bending alone.

4.Throughout the series, I've yet to see any real oppression of non-benders by benders. The closest was the extortion Korra witnessed at the markets, but those men could have run the same operation with any weapons.

Plus there is the historic and cultural aspect. Bending makes up a large proportion of each nations history, culture and identity and you should not take that away for such groundless reasons.

Spoiler: Off topic: There is a major flaw in Amon's plan.

Aang was shown taking away the bending of Tarlock's father, yet he managed to have a son who inherited he's bending skills. Assuming Amon uses a similar method, which he appears to, he is going to constantly have another generation of benders to deal with.

1. A good point, I made the concession that their political power was not exclusive, but they have often held sway over the masses. The Earth King, for example, may not have been a bender - but he was hardly a ruler either. Long Feng was the man calling the shots with his entire force of Earth Benders backing him. Now, yes, I am making the assumption that everyone on the current council is a bender (I have no information to the contrary, and I've yet to see any of the other ones try to speak for the Non-Benders even when Tarlok was proposing taking extreme measures on Non-Benders)

2. Eh, its a minor point. Still, the fact that you are part of the 'water tribe' would denote the predominant bending 'gene' there as it were to the exclusion of anyone else.

3. Here's the thing though: Joe Schmoe NB has little chance against even the most novice and untrained of benders. A bender automatically has the advantage UNLESS someone has access to years of combat training or a piece of complicated technology. Given that you have to do something 'special' in order to even have a chance, I would still mark that as 'little' recourse. As in: more than zero.

4. Oh no? How about the Dai Li of Ba-Sing-Sei? The Firebenders of original TLA terrorizing their own fishing village (to say nothing of the Earth Kindgom villages)? Hama, blood bending dozens of people to her will? Or what about Tarlok's police arresting people who had a problem with the government arbitrarily turning their power off?

You make good arguments, however I think it is specious to suggest that the benders' influence does not pervade nearly all parts of the TLA world. Yes, they're not all bad; and more than a few are willing to stand up against tyranny and all that. However, the fact is they still remain -I would argue- the dominant power. RC's police force is comprised primarily of metal benders, the Dai Li were all Earth Benders.

Further, there's a difference between a 'gifted' individual and one who can set you alight just by thinking about it, or one who can puppeteer you to commit acts against your will, or one who can rend the very ground you walk on. Surely that would give any of us pause.

 

[Redingold]

The thing is that even if Amon removes bending entirely, that won't solve the problem of groups with power abusing those without it. It'll just be groups with access to advanced technology (like, say, the electric gloves or mechs that the Equalists use) or specialist skills (like being able to paralyse people with a few punches) doing the abusing instead of benders.

 

[CommanderL]

yes they do but they are making it the wrong way the show has shown us that benders in republic city are abusing their gifts

 

[Scarim Coral]

For a minute there I thought you ninja my LoK thread idea (not telling as I'm saving it when the last episodes of season 1 had finished).

Anyway for my view on the subject matter, couldn't they just get along more?

What I mean if I guess is to make more equally for the non bender (not what Amon is doing). I mean more non bender repersentatives or equal rights for them.

If the work field require alot of benders then it should be mandatory that they should hire some non benders aswell for equal right purposes. Again they should hire a non bender for the sake of it but for the right qualifications aswell (not like let say hire a non bender to simple clean up the benders mess from work).

Don't ask me what exactly a non bender job can be to work alongside a bender workers, that what the shows team suppose to figure out if they were to show something like that in the show.

 

[pffh]

I'm a big fan of The Last Airbender Series, and The Legend of Korra has really been ramping up these past few episodes. But as I've been discussing the show with my friend, something struck me: Do the equalists have a point?

Let's break it down: The entirety of the known world is ruled by benders to the point that each nation is actually named after the element of the predominant bender population there (fire, air, water, earth). Now there is a United Republic featuring elements from all four, however -again- the ruling council consists entirely of benders: One Fire representative, One Earth, One Air (interesting note: there are less than a dozen Air Benders in the world at this point), TWO Water, but no non-benders.

Lets go over the leaders of the nations shall we:
Fire Lord: Bender
Earth King: Non-Bender
Northern Water Dude king: Non-Bender
Souther Water Tribe leader: Non-Bender
Tenzin: Bender

And as for the council members while they are all benders now we see in the flashback that it's not always so since during Aangs time there were at least two non-benders on the council (Sokka and the Air acolyte guy).

Historically (save for just a few exceptions) each nation has been ruled by a bender (Fire Lord Zuko/Azula/Ozai/Azulon/Souzin, Earth King Bumi, Long Feng [of the Ba-Sing-Sei Dai Li], and even Avatars themselves [Kiyoshi Island]). Everything from attire to sports is pretty much defined by the bending prowess of the host nation.

Nope as I said the Earth king wasn't a bender and neither were the leaders of the two water tribes.

Furthermore, aside from the 'simple' vanilla control over Earth, Fire, Water, and Air; some benders can 'kick it up a notch' in a variety of ways. For example: a Water Bender's power increases during a full moon and -for some- so much so that they can 'blood bend' (turn another person into an unwilling slave by bending the water in their body) some blood benders are so powerful that they can control groups of people even during the day. A centennial comet increases a fire bender's power several hundred fold (nearly allowing a fire lord to burn an entire nation to the ground in a matter of hours [with help]).

One (well now two) Blood benders EVER have had the ability to blood bend when it's not a full moon and besides blood bending is illegal.

Until now, a non-bender had little recourse to resist any abuses of power by benders apart from 'give them no reason to notice you'. Also, until this point, the world has been dependent on benders for major industrial work. However, now the world has reached circa 1920s-1930s era technology. Machines and motors can no start to do the jobs benders used to, and there is of course: Amon. Amon is the head of the 'equalist' movement and has a unique ability to remove one's bending permanently and means to do just that to every bender around the wold until there are none left. The act is brief (and may be slightly painful) but appears to render no permanent harm to the former bender (also, it remains unclear if they can pass on the bending power to their offspring after undergoing this).

So non-benders such as the Kyoshi Warriors, Mai, Tai Lee, the southern water tribe warriors (including Sokka) have no way to resist benders now?

Also taking away someones bending is not harmless. It is analogues to cutting off someones hand because some people are born handicapped.

Now this is no idle bigotry. Benders can and do pose a real and quantifiable threat to each other and non-benders if they have a mind to, and they rule over non-benders almost absolutely. The show has displayed that once the government (even the ostensibly 'peaceful' ones like the United Republic) decides to kill a protest, just a dozen or so benders are required to put it down.

Again Non-benders rule plenty of nations and can also be on the council just fine.

Also Benders are as much as a threat as someone with as sword or a spear or a bow as the show has shown numerous times and those dozen or so benders that put down the protest were a highly trained special forces unit against civilian shopkeepers.

 

[JaceArveduin]

highly trained special forces unit

And that's the thing most people aren't thinking about, the benders train to hone there skill. Some of them are fairly natural at it, but it takes training to be able to use it accurately.

 

[senordesol]

I'd like to address a few of the more common responses.

First: I'm NOT asking if the equalists are completely right, just if they have a point (i.e. benders, by their nature, render a palpable threat to non benders)

Again, this is not akin to being 'smarter' or 'faster' or 'stronger' than someone, benders can literally command the elements themselves to do their bidding. By and large, this has left non-benders historically pretty much at the mercy of benders.

Remember: The Kiyoshi warriors lost every fight they were (shown) in the series against the Firebenders. First against Zuko's frigate (Spared because avatar Aang, led the Prince's forces away) and Second against Azula's three-woman squad.

Remember: While blood bending is illegal, when we see a man convicted of it; it was NOT his first trial. Meaning he walked pretty much every time until the evidence was SO overwhelming that a conviction was inevitable. EVEN THEN, when he was convicted he WALKED out of the courtroom, his cuff courteously unlocked by an enthralled Toph. The ONLY reason he didn't get away was because the Avatar (master of all elements) was there to stop him and EVEN THEN, had to be in the Avatar State to do it. If literally ANYONE else had gone after him; they'd have been done in.

Yes, with considerable time, training, and technological superiority (plus some help from the odd celestial event); a non-bender can best a bender in a straight fight. But not everyone has that and is not going to have that. Remember: the invasion of the Fire Nation was only made even possible by the Eclipse, and even then the invading army was HEAVILY supplemented by benders (including the Avatar).

As illustrated beautifully in the first episode, when a bender asks for your lunch money; you give it up. You can train all you like, but you'll never be able to shoot fire from your hands. And if any benders in authority decide to turn on you, again: your options are limited. It's tough to lead a charge when your enemy can make the ground you walk on swallow you whole.

 

[Frozen Donkey Wheel2]

The "Sue for more representation" thing is the closest, though there are less confrontational ways they could go about it. Anyway, getting rid of bending just because not everyone has it makes no sense. It's useful. As demonstrated, lightning-benders provide the city with it's power, and "The Last Airbender" saw about a million different relatively high-tech machines that only worked thanks to bending. (Submarines, Earth-tanks, fire-tanks, etc.) Non-benders just need a bit more representation, that's all.

 

[Kolby Jack]

Historically (save for just a few exceptions) each nation has been ruled by a bender (Fire Lord Zuko/Azula/Ozai/Azulon/Souzin, Earth King Bumi, Long Feng [of the Ba-Sing-Sei Dai Li], and even Avatars themselves [Kiyoshi Island]). Everything from attire to sports is pretty much defined by the bending prowess of the host nation.

And this statement is patently untrue. The Fire Lord is a firebender, yes. The Air Nomads were ALL benders, so that kind of cancels the point out with them. The Earth King (NOT BUMI, he ruled a city, not the nation!) is a non-bender, and the chiefs of both the Northern AND Southern water tribes of the time were non-benders. Kyoshi Island wasn't ruled by Kyoshi, though I'm sure she did have some degree of authority there. Attire? Not really, unless colors count. Sports? The only sport we've EVER seen in the series besides pro-bending was Air Ball, a game played by the Air Nomads, who as I said were ALL benders. And we see plenty of warrior customs and traditions that have nothing to do with bending, from the water tribes to the Fire Nation soldiers to the Kyoshi Warriors.

Anyway...

I used to believe they had some kind of point when I thought the council was Benders only, but after it was revealed that non-benders are totally allowed to serve on the Council and only by chance is the current council all benders, I don't think they have a point at all. Yea, some benders abuse their power and cause strife, but so many others put their lives on the line to serve and protect the people (including non-benders) that it kind of nullifies their point. Benders are just people, capable of good and evil. Amon's view is skewed by tragedy in his life, as are the views of his followers. So no, they don't have much credibility, if any.

Spoiler: For the perfect example of this...

Look at Hiroshi and Asami Sato. Hiroshi loses his wife and blames all benders everywhere, wanting them all gone for something they had nothing to do with. A man with a knife could have killed his wife just as easily. Asami on the other hand, while still affected by her mother's death, doesn't blame all benders, and even accepts them if they're good people. Hell, she's dating a firebender! THAT is a rational response.

 

[Vault101]

for some reason I find the Idea of somones bending powers being removed...disturbing

like rape or somthing....

 

[manic_depressive13]

Doesn't it strike anyone as incredibly unfair that you need to be a certain kind of bender to work at a particular job? You need to be a metal bender if you want to be a policeman, and you need to be a lightning bender to work at the power plant. The latter makes sense at least, but why are all the police metal benders? Surely a chi-blocker could subdue a criminal just as well.

 

[Shock and Awe]

I'm not certain that bending is a requirement for being on the council but if it is then its definitely unfair. However I think its actually determined by their heritage, as in whether they descent from people in the Earth Kingdom, Fire Nation, ect. That even that doesn't make to much sense...

Sidenote: The Earth King was a non-bender as far as I could tell and so were the chiefs of the water tribes.