Poll: Was ME1 really as good as we remember or was Saren just an idiot antagonist?

[TomLikesGuitar]

So my question then is why didn't Saren just just have Sovereign and the Geth Fleet just suddenly stream through the Mass Relay while he waltzed up to the Citadel Tower in the Chaos and activated the Citadel Relay? We know that he had Krogan and Asari support, and they already have Citadel access. He could have had a ton of double agents on the Citadel ready to attack on his command. He also was able to sneak Geth onto Noveria and we know the Citadel had a huge security upgrade after the attack, so it's not unreasonable to think he could have snuck Geth onto the Citadel as well.

Saren did sneak geth onto Noveria however it was relatively speaking only a handful, and considerably less than what he could move via the conduit. I'd guess Saren thought the amount he could smuggle wouldn't be enough, and as for double agents, well the more he obtained the greater his risk of being found out by C-sec or an information broker. If you consider that Saren believed he needed more infantry to hold off C-sec while he could take control of the citadel then it further gives a reason for him developing a genophage cure (and also create a potential rachni army). Maybe Saren could have somehow got enough forces/influence on the citadel to stage a direct takeover but I'd pressume that the conduit was the most relaible approach.

Who says he even needed other people with him? With Sovereign and the Geth attacking, do you think anyone would even be in the Citadel tower? All he had to do was hide, wait till it was empty and taken control. I mean, he's supposed to be their best agent, even if the Citadel tower did have someone guarding it in a Citadel wide emergency, would Saren really be afraid of a couple of C-Sec mooks?

There seems to be a lot of speculation on your part about the Citadel tower security procedures and C-Sec in general... too much to definitively call Saren an idiot.

 

[Zhukov]

Yeah, I always had that problem with ME1's story. My tolerance for plot holes is pretty high, but when your entire plot is build on a hole... eaarrgh.

Saren didn't even need to sneak troops into the citadel. He could have just packed Sovereign with as many Geth and Krogan as possible and charged straight in through the relay

Besides, I always disliked Saren for his painfully corny dialogue. Tell me this doesn't make you cringe:


That reminds me, Benezia was even worse.

I liked Saren's motivation in theory, but the execution never quite managed to carry it off. Plus, he was completely absent for 95% of the game

 

[Hattingston]

I thought it was because of the whole 50,000 year cycle thing. Sovereign was programmed not to attack until the 50,000 years had passed, so he gathers his forces, waits for the time to come, and then strikes. Because Saren is indoctrinated, Sovereign's goals are passed on to him.
He waits until the last minute because massive super-armies don't hide very well for extended periods of time, and if all had gone to plan on Eden Prime, and Saren hadn't proven deficient, there would have been no need to investigate, and resistance simply wouldn't have occurred.

 

[Sexy Devil]

In defense of "Why didn't he just wlatz in a and activate everything" accusation, I maybe wrong on this, so correct me if I am, but It seems like this was already Saren's plan before Shepard figured him out after the attack on Eden Prime. Saren couldn't risk anything while under investigation, and once Shepard had Tali's evidence Saren had no easy access to the citadel, meaning he had to gather his enforcements and invade. He also may have not had all of his forces completely ready before Eden Prime, so that would explain why he didn't just invade earlier.

But as everyone has already said, all stories have plot holes, It doesn't make Saren an "Idiot" Or Mass Effect 1 any less great. I still think it's my least favorite in the series, but it did have the best overall plot and narrative, while ME2 had the best dialogue and ME3 had the best gameplay. My order would probably go ME2>ME3>ME1.

And why is everyone hating on Kai Leng? I don't really think he was suppose to be the main Antagonist, It's not like he was the mastermind like Saren or Harbinger, the position really goes to TIM. Leng was just to suppose to be a rival, and Bioware did a great Job of making you hate the shit out of him. This of course lead to the best renegade option in the game. God, that moment was so satisfying. It would've been better if they brought him out at the start of the game, like on mars, if only to strengthen the rivalry and make it a bit more deep.

He just needed the Eden Prime beacon to find the conduit though; there was absolutely no reason to go there in the first place. Nobody even knew the Citadel was a relay and he had a huge amount of authority as a Spectre. He could have just snuck into the Presidium when no one was looking, did his thing, and let the Reapers in, and nobody would have given it a second thought until the Reapers started killing everyone.

The only foreseeable reason why he couldn't do that was that he needed Sovereign to work the magic. Even then, Sovereign only got killed because its shields shut off momentarily after failing to control Saren. Again, if it just made a beeline for the Presidium and did its thing there would've been no problem.

 

[Elamdri]

So my question then is why didn't Saren just just have Sovereign and the Geth Fleet just suddenly stream through the Mass Relay while he waltzed up to the Citadel Tower in the Chaos and activated the Citadel Relay? We know that he had Krogan and Asari support, and they already have Citadel access. He could have had a ton of double agents on the Citadel ready to attack on his command. He also was able to sneak Geth onto Noveria and we know the Citadel had a huge security upgrade after the attack, so it's not unreasonable to think he could have snuck Geth onto the Citadel as well.

Saren did sneak geth onto Noveria however it was relatively speaking only a handful, and considerably less than what he could move via the conduit. I'd guess Saren thought the amount he could smuggle wouldn't be enough, and as for double agents, well the more he obtained the greater his risk of being found out by C-sec or an information broker. If you consider that Saren believed he needed more infantry to hold off C-sec while he could take control of the citadel then it further gives a reason for him developing a genophage cure (and also create a potential rachni army). Maybe Saren could have somehow got enough forces/influence on the citadel to stage a direct takeover but I'd pressume that the conduit was the most relaible approach.

Who says he even needed other people with him? With Sovereign and the Geth attacking, do you think anyone would even be in the Citadel tower? All he had to do was hide, wait till it was empty and taken control. I mean, he's supposed to be their best agent, even if the Citadel tower did have someone guarding it in a Citadel wide emergency, would Saren really be afraid of a couple of C-Sec mooks?

There seems to be a lot of speculation on your part about the Citadel tower security procedures and C-Sec in general... too much to definitively call Saren an idiot.

I'm being somewhat hyperbolic for the purposes of being funny. Clearly he's not an idiot. It just seems like he went through this incredibly roundabout process of basically restoring the status quo (Him having Citadel Access) that existed BEFORE the game started and that only went away because of his own actions.

 

[Elamdri]

You raise good points. I point out that all villains--and heroes too--are often 'idiots' because the game/story requires them to be, otherwise you wouldn't have a game/story. Take Skyrim for example. If Alduin had waited literally a few more seconds before attacking, the Dragonborn would have lost her head and no one would have been able to stop him. Yet, for reasons that are never explained in the game, Alduin chooses to attack at the WORST POSSIBLE MOMENT in the game, thus setting events in motion to end up getting him killed.
But that is a lame excuse, so I'll attempt to give logical reasons as to why Saren did what he did. Please notice the word 'attempt'.

Vigil suggests that Saren is just the most recent victim of Sovereign. It says that Sovereign has probably been using agents for many centuries, biding its time. This raises the question as to why it had to be Saren to do this. Why not other agents? Vigil suggests it's because Sovereign knew it would get stomped. A Reaper is strong, but if it revealed itself, the galaxy would unite and it would be destroyed before its mission was complete. So it waited. Saren just happened to come along at the right time for Sovereign. The Geth had been made and a faction followed it. It now had its army to launch the attack. It just needed an agent, someone who could move freely without drawing attention. In steps a Spectre who's already known for his extreme actions. Perfect timing.

As for why Saren didn't just charge in at first, I think it's because he didn't know that's what Sovereign wanted. Sovereign was likely hiding its plans from Saren at the beginning because it knew Saren wouldn't play along if it told him up front. Remember, Saren was also studying Sovereign, trying to learn about it. I doubt he immediately went, "Okay, I'll help you wipe us out, or at least prove we can be useful." He was slowly indoctrinated and Sovereign fed him hints and clues to its ultimate plan, pushing him down the path without telling him fully where it will lead. Saren probably didn't know what the Conduit was until Virmire. He probably didn't even realize Sovereign was a Reaper when he attacked Eden Prime. He probably just thought it was a Reaper ship like Shepard at first. Why do this?
Again, it comes down to the fact that Sovereign is just one ship, and it knows it can't stand up to an entire galaxy alone. So it was trying to get all its pieces in place before making its move. It would slowly reveal itself to Saren as he was indoctrinated, so Saren would feel like he was the one coming up with the ideas, not having them fed to him. It was like a game of chess. Position yourself, lure your enemies into the positions you want them in, and then strike.

But Shepard screwed up Sovereign's plan on Virmire. By talking to Sovereign, discovering what Sovereign really was, and causing Saren to doubt himself (at least my Shepard did), Sovereign panicked. It was watching as its careful plan was undone by one human. So, it took the route that you think should have been taken first: direct approach. However, now Saren was outed as a traitor. There was no way he was getting back inside the Citadel alive. So the Conduit, the back door, was needed to get him there and make sure the Citadel was ready to go when Sovereign arrived. Off goes Saren on his mission, using a Mass Relay that puts him right by where he needs to be inside the Citadel. Sovereign itself charges into battle, waiting for Saren to start closing the arms so it won't be destroyed while it works, and then unleashes its true Reaper destructive power. Which, while devastating, was not enough to save it.

So, there are my answers for why Saren did things the way he did. Sovereign knew it wasn't ready, and that it would only get one chance at its task. It waited until everything was nearly perfect, but panicked when it saw all its work coming undone and rushed its plan. The end result is the very reason why it didn't have Saren do things that way from the beginning. Does that help?

Well, my argument there is that they were looking for the Conduit since before Virmire, hell since the start of the game, so ultimately Sovereign would have known that the direct approach was necessary at least by the start of the game.

However, I agree with you in that I think that this is a case of "The villain is as competent as the plot demands."

 

[TomLikesGuitar]

So my question then is why didn't Saren just just have Sovereign and the Geth Fleet just suddenly stream through the Mass Relay while he waltzed up to the Citadel Tower in the Chaos and activated the Citadel Relay? We know that he had Krogan and Asari support, and they already have Citadel access. He could have had a ton of double agents on the Citadel ready to attack on his command. He also was able to sneak Geth onto Noveria and we know the Citadel had a huge security upgrade after the attack, so it's not unreasonable to think he could have snuck Geth onto the Citadel as well.

Saren did sneak geth onto Noveria however it was relatively speaking only a handful, and considerably less than what he could move via the conduit. I'd guess Saren thought the amount he could smuggle wouldn't be enough, and as for double agents, well the more he obtained the greater his risk of being found out by C-sec or an information broker. If you consider that Saren believed he needed more infantry to hold off C-sec while he could take control of the citadel then it further gives a reason for him developing a genophage cure (and also create a potential rachni army). Maybe Saren could have somehow got enough forces/influence on the citadel to stage a direct takeover but I'd pressume that the conduit was the most relaible approach.

Who says he even needed other people with him? With Sovereign and the Geth attacking, do you think anyone would even be in the Citadel tower? All he had to do was hide, wait till it was empty and taken control. I mean, he's supposed to be their best agent, even if the Citadel tower did have someone guarding it in a Citadel wide emergency, would Saren really be afraid of a couple of C-Sec mooks?

There seems to be a lot of speculation on your part about the Citadel tower security procedures and C-Sec in general... too much to definitively call Saren an idiot.

I'm being somewhat hyperbolic for the purposes of being funny. Clearly he's not an idiot. It just seems like he went through this incredibly roundabout process of basically restoring the status quo (Him having Citadel Access) that existed BEFORE the game started and that only went away because of his own actions.

It is a good postulation, no doubt...

I just wouldn't use it as evidence that the game is bad. The whole thing could make perfect sense behind the scenes, but the PC just never figures out why because it isn't important.

 

[Sexy Devil]

It is a good postulation, no doubt...

I just wouldn't use it as evidence that the game is bad. The whole thing could make perfect sense behind the scenes, but the PC just never figures out why because it isn't important.

Inducing gigantic plotholes because they're apparently irrelevant is just bad storytelling.

 

[TomLikesGuitar]

It is a good postulation, no doubt...

I just wouldn't use it as evidence that the game is bad. The whole thing could make perfect sense behind the scenes, but the PC just never figures out why because it isn't important.

Inducing gigantic plotholes because they're apparently irrelevant is just bad storytelling.

I wouldn't call it a "gigantic plothole". It's easily explainable.

Saren was indoctrinated and pretty much crazy.

The reapers could have also had another reason for wanting things to happen the way they did.

 

[Bertylicious]

Saren attacked Eden Prime for 2 reasons; to get the beacon (and on the path to the Conduit) but also to hurt the Human civilisation. Why does he do this? Because he hasn't at this point been fully indoctrinated. As far as he is concerned he is just "using" Sovereign to further his own, anti-human, ends.

This, to me, had increased relevance in ME2 because Shephard keeps going on about how he is "using" Cerberus. It is essentially the same situation that Saren was in; a SPECTRE with a vaunted reputation being used by a malign entity as a dupe. The difference between Shephard and Saren being that Shephard's motivation, no matter how renegade he is, is altruistic whilst Saren is basically just a racist.

Ashley/Kaiden's dialouge in ME3 is further exploration of this idea.

Edit: I guess what I'm saying is that I don't think Saren is dumb, quite the opposite. He just has more than one objective. Perhaps Saren could have done with more screen time to clarify his character.

 

[tlgAlaska]

Saren made some very typical villain mistakes, I think he wasn't very genre savvy. Like right in the beginning where he orderd the geths to destroy the beacon and then leaves. Don't delegate a crucial task to your minions if you could do it better yourself, that just gives the hero time to swoop in and foil your plans.
Sovereign could have just blasted that thing with a laser or even stomped on it, that would have only take seconds out of his escape from the tiny, single alliance ship and would have probably killed Shepard as collateral.

 

[fix-the-spade]

I mean, am I missing something here? Cause I've thought about it for a while and it just doesn't make any sense to me.

Strictly speaking, Saren was under the effects of Indoctrination the entire game. One of the major effects of indoctrination is that it degrades higher mental functions, so maybe that would have occured had Saren been all there.

Alternatively, Sovereign has spent has five hundred centuries floating about, maybe he/it spent a teensy bit too much time dreaming up a plan of attack.

 

[370999]

I dunno, I always thought the whole Rachnai was Sovereign's brute force attempt to take control of the Citadel. Which failed.

So Sovereign decided he would get to the bottom of this mystery. He then (somehow) met with Saren. Not wanting to waste a useful agent, he decided to slowly 9oh so slowly) build up an army capable of destroying the Citadel fleets, while finding out the mystery of the Protheans. Saren was going along with him while searching for a way to undo indoctrination.

Really the thorn in their side was Shepard A) Finding the beacon. B) Exposing Saren and C) Hunting them down after becoming a Specter.

Remember Sovereign didn't just want to take the Citadel, he wanted ot ensure the coming "harvest" would be as easy as possible.

 

[Fappy]

Saren predicted synthesis! He is a prophet and his voice must be heard!

 

[Sexy Devil]

Saren predicted synthesis! He is a prophet and his voice must be heard!

Praise the lord! Running into the magic beam was his birthright!

 

[Fappy]

Saren predicted synthesis! He is a prophet and his voice must be heard!

Praise the lord! Running into the magic beam was his birthright!

Clearly the OP does not share in his vision. He would treat us like this!

 

[black_knight1337]

You know what the big hole in your argument is, the fact that you think Sovereign could just go through the mass relays to the citadel and no-one would even notice. There's no way a huge slow moving ship like Sovereign would go unnoticed let alone the entire geth army with it. Also, as has already been stated, Saren would of thought that he needed a much larger army than just the geth and Sovereign and that Sovereign would have thought that something was up with the Conduit and that he needed to get it. Honestly getting the conduit would be the best plan of attack. If the council had of been a bit more blind or Saren was a bit more crafty then the whole thing probably would have been pulled off. Saren would get his army and teleport them straight to the Citadel and thus killing everything.