Poll: What if you were forced into military?

[asiepshtain]

One might argue that it is cowardice to do what you are told when the orders contradict what you believe. If there is an emergency, and I believe in the cause, no one has to tell me to help... I just will. But given the track record of battles and wars lately, I seriously doubt that fight will arise anytime soon.

If it is your aspiration to fight and kill for the greedy and powerful, then I wish you the best of luck in accomplishing that goal, but do not for a moment assume that somehow makes you superior, or that it gives your life any sort of meaning. What you actually do with your time determines it's value.

I will die eventually, on that point you are absolutely correct. I am not worried about when that happens, because I will die a good man. Good men do not kill just because they are told to do so.

I would fight to defend my land and my country, but I will not participate in any military action outside of the immediate defence of my country, manditory or otherwise.
...
Do you honestly think it takes more courage to accept training for a potential future conflict than it does to stand up for what you beleive in, even if doing so will make most of society shun you? It's not uncommon for people to rate honour above life, and it sure as hell takes a lot more courage to resist where everyone else complies.

Have you read the OP?

It's about a draft to Train for an emergency, TRAIN being an operative word. Even then, there are options like civilian support and combat support. And still 21% would rather flee or go to jail, over simply doing two years of general service or simply accepting the option that they would have to fight for their rights.

"If there is an emergency, and I believe in the cause, no one has to tell me to help... I just will." - Really? because last time I checked you can't help wounded without at least some form of training as a medic and you can't fight without training as a solider. Well, not help anyway, you can get people killed. To say you want to help but not be willing to give up a year of your life so you could actually be able to help is short-sighted, and to me feels like a cop out.

As for the morality, call me old-fashioned or just naive but I just assumed the OP meant that the conflict on the horizon is a just one. Every army has a code of conduct and should you be given an illegal order it is actually your obligation to say no.

I have to admit that people jumping so quickly to cynicism and to the stance of the moral-objector does feel like cowardice to me. We have our rights not because the universe gave them to us, but because somewhere along the line someone fought for them. And we have to protect those rights, and our loved ones. If that means speaking against the government, boycotting and protesting and anything else, we do that. But, it also means that we protect our rights from enemies who would like to take them.

Those who picked to run will soon find themselves out of places to run to.

One more thing, a draft in my opinion is a moral thing, it creates an equal line between all economical layers and a social melting pot where you meet people you never would have otherwise. Not to mention that doing something for someone else is a good idea in general ( this is of course if the system is just and rich kids don't get papa to pay off a doctor to give them a note)

 

[Glerken]

I'd leave. Stroll up to Canada, live a nice life in Toronto.
Even though in reality once I'm done with university, that's where I'm moving to anyways.

I just don't think forcing a person into a war is fair. Plus, no, I'm not willing to die for a chunk of land with imaginary lines around it. Call me a coward. I'm not, but if you want to that's mighty fine with me.

"I'm not fighting for my country, I'm fighting for my family."
What do you think the "enemy" is doing? (S)He has a family too. They love them just as much as you love yours. In their eyes, they are the good guy, you're the bad guy.

 

[Dys]

Spoiler: text

One might argue that it is cowardice to do what you are told when the orders contradict what you believe. If there is an emergency, and I believe in the cause, no one has to tell me to help... I just will. But given the track record of battles and wars lately, I seriously doubt that fight will arise anytime soon.

If it is your aspiration to fight and kill for the greedy and powerful, then I wish you the best of luck in accomplishing that goal, but do not for a moment assume that somehow makes you superior, or that it gives your life any sort of meaning. What you actually do with your time determines it's value.

I will die eventually, on that point you are absolutely correct. I am not worried about when that happens, because I will die a good man. Good men do not kill just because they are told to do so.

I would fight to defend my land and my country, but I will not participate in any military action outside of the immediate defence of my country, manditory or otherwise.
...
Do you honestly think it takes more courage to accept training for a potential future conflict than it does to stand up for what you beleive in, even if doing so will make most of society shun you? It's not uncommon for people to rate honour above life, and it sure as hell takes a lot more courage to resist where everyone else complies.

Have you read the OP?

It's about a draft to Train for an emergency, TRAIN being an operative word. Even then, there are options like civilian support and combat support. And still 21% would rather flee or go to jail, over simply doing two years of general service or simply accepting the option that they would have to fight for their rights.

"If there is an emergency, and I believe in the cause, no one has to tell me to help... I just will." - Really? because last time I checked you can't help wounded without at least some form of training as a medic and you can't fight without training as a solider. Well, not help anyway, you can get people killed. To say you want to help but not be willing to give up a year of your life so you could actually be able to help is short-sighted, and to me feels like a cop out.

As for the morality, call me old-fashioned or just naive but I just assumed the OP meant that the conflict on the horizon is a just one. Every army has a code of conduct and should you be given an illegal order it is actually your obligation to say no.

I have to admit that people jumping so quickly to cynicism and to the stance of the moral-objector does feel like cowardice to me. We have our rights not because the universe gave them to us, but because somewhere along the line someone fought for them. And we have to protect those rights, and our loved ones. If that means speaking against the government, boycotting and protesting and anything else, we do that. But, it also means that we protect our rights from enemies who would like to take them.

Those who picked to run will soon find themselves out of places to run to.

One more thing, a draft in my opinion is a moral thing, it creates an equal line between all economical layers and a social melting pot where you meet people you never would have otherwise. Not to mention that doing something for someone else is a good idea in general ( this is of course if the system is just and rich kids don't get papa to pay off a doctor to give them a note)

But it's massively immoral to force you're opinions and beleifs on people, it can remove social and class barriers, but do you really want to rely, even in part on people who fight only because they are told to?

Why would I need training to be of aid in a crisis? If we were to be invaded and I was to join a resistance group, I'm sure they would find something useful for me to do, especially if in that 6 months of training I finished my degree (yes you can study in prison) and became a certified mechanical engineer (they get a lot of work with the defence force as is, I can only see it increasing during a conflict). You can be helpful without being a frontline fighter or macho hero, and even doing that doesn't require a whole lot of training (Yes, I have fired a gun and yes I am fairly fit, militia is a realistic option).

It would be cowardly to give up everything I have been and continue to work for so I can take the easy road and be garunteed some menial, non combat role in a conflict that may or may not happen so I might fight against a cause I may or may not beleive in8 and embrace policies I flat out reject.

 

[Nigh Invulnerable]

It doesn't matter if they're drafting people, I'm a hemophiliac and they'd have to be retarded to want to pay thousands of dollars extra if I ever get injured. So I'd probably never get drafted. Even if that was the case, I'd claim conscientious objector status. I can guarantee I'd never think a war is a good thing.

 

[Ignignokt]

I'm amused at how many people have voted for long range combat. They probably think that long range is less dangerous. It is - at first. Long range can become close range very quickly, and if your opponent has a shotgun or a Kalashnikov... well, that big ol' sniper rifle suddenly looks pretty useless.

Prolly because most of the geeks in here play too many video games and think that "long range combat" means "I CAN HAS SN1P3R!!!"

News Flash: Sniping in a fucking video game does NOT transfer into real life! Half of you couldn't even HOLD the rifle correctly, even fewer could aim it, even fewer still could hit within 25 ft of the target, and even if you did the recoil would hit you so hard you wouldn't be able to set up another shot in time before you're found out.

That's basically what I've been thinking while reading this thread.

 

[MSG_Klemer]

Prolly because most of the geeks in here play too many video games and think that "long range combat" means "I CAN HAS SN1P3R!!!"

News Flash: Sniping in a fucking video game does NOT transfer into real life! Half of you couldn't even HOLD the rifle correctly, even fewer could aim it, even fewer still could hit within 25 ft of the target, and even if you did the recoil would hit you so hard you wouldn't be able to set up another shot in time before you're found out.

Good post.

Just some minor info:

M82A1 .50 cal: 13.6 kg (29.98 lb) (semi-auto)

M24 7.62x51mm NATO: 5.4 kg (12.3 lb)w/sling empty, without scope (bolt action)

M110 Semi-Automatic Sniper System (designed for the bravo element) 7.62x51mm NATO : 6.94 kg (15.3 lb) with scope, bipod, and a loaded 20-round magazine

MK12 Special Purpose Receiver (Designated Marksman/Special Operations) 5.56mm: 10 lb (4.5 kg). (Fully loaded, w/ Heavy Barrel, Optic & 30 Rounds)

Just basic info. Drop the hammer down on the big fifty, your not going to effectively drop another round downrange quickly, better hope your Bravo element is a good shot.

By the way:
Alpha Element: Dedicated Sniper
Bravo Element: Observer, Sniper qualified

Meaning Alpha turns casualty the Bravo has the training to take up Alpha's rifle.

Oh ho ho ho! Very cool! You seem to really know your stuff, are you in military/ex-military?

US Army 12yrs, still going strong...I was going to post other nations firearms but it turned out being more of a pain than I thought.

 

[ParkourMcGhee]

Serbia does this, and I'd be quite happy to take the 18 months civilian... however currently I'm in education and I don't have to start until and unless I'm not in education or have a full time job. I'm planning to put it off for as long as possible .

However since England has the best trained Army in the world I don't mind joining if I get all the training . Something about the zombie apocalypse and being more prepared I think...

 

[MalthusX]

Logistics.

I'd be the guy in the command trailer with the general, trying to co-orfinate the little details. Kind of like Lt. Gaeta in Battlestar.

 

[TaborMallory]

I absolutely love long-range combat. Call me a wuss, but there's just something about picking off targets one by one in a stealthy manner. I call it hunting.

Then again, I've never been in an actual war before. Oh well, whatever happens. Of all of the choices, long-range would be my first choice, hands down.

 

[MalthusX]

Well, you do have a point Terminalchaos (not about killing offivers or hating the population though. I see Malthus as a reminder of how reality really works). I still think I;d be better at some sort of co-ordination or techincal role than firing a guy.

Sometimes in the movies in the command centre there's that guy with the headset sitting in front of the monitor, who yells things like "We've just lost unit 3"? Well, I think thats where I'd end up.

 

[Shihan2]

The problem with this question is that there's a lot more to it than just what you can do, since the military tends to determine what you can/can't do via tests, but since I'm apparently a suicidal nutter as declared by my friends, I'd continue the long standing family tradition of being either front line combat or front line support with an unusually high survival rate.

 

[ExodusinFlames]

Wait, why can't women be drafted? And if they were to hypothetically pass a drafting law in Canada, I'd just walk north and would be lost forever

 

[mokey91]

Canada here I come.

 

[El Taco the Rogue]

Jail. im a coward

 

[Sixties Spidey]

I picked front line, but now that I think of it...

Long Range Combat. Thanks for standing still wanker!

 

[ORLOFT]

One might argue that it is cowardice to do what you are told when the orders contradict what you believe. If there is an emergency, and I believe in the cause, no one has to tell me to help... I just will. But given the track record of battles and wars lately, I seriously doubt that fight will arise anytime soon.

If it is your aspiration to fight and kill for the greedy and powerful, then I wish you the best of luck in accomplishing that goal, but do not for a moment assume that somehow makes you superior, or that it gives your life any sort of meaning. What you actually do with your time determines it's value.

I will die eventually, on that point you are absolutely correct. I am not worried about when that happens, because I will die a good man. Good men do not kill just because they are told to do so.

I would fight to defend my land and my country, but I will not participate in any military action outside of the immediate defence of my country, manditory or otherwise.
...
Do you honestly think it takes more courage to accept training for a potential future conflict than it does to stand up for what you beleive in, even if doing so will make most of society shun you? It's not uncommon for people to rate honour above life, and it sure as hell takes a lot more courage to resist where everyone else complies.

Have you read the OP?

It's about a draft to Train for an emergency, TRAIN being an operative word. Even then, there are options like civilian support and combat support. And still 21% would rather flee or go to jail, over simply doing two years of general service or simply accepting the option that they would have to fight for their rights.

"If there is an emergency, and I believe in the cause, no one has to tell me to help... I just will." - Really? because last time I checked you can't help wounded without at least some form of training as a medic and you can't fight without training as a solider. Well, not help anyway, you can get people killed. To say you want to help but not be willing to give up a year of your life so you could actually be able to help is short-sighted, and to me feels like a cop out.

As for the morality, call me old-fashioned or just naive but I just assumed the OP meant that the conflict on the horizon is a just one. Every army has a code of conduct and should you be given an illegal order it is actually your obligation to say no.

I have to admit that people jumping so quickly to cynicism and to the stance of the moral-objector does feel like cowardice to me. We have our rights not because the universe gave them to us, but because somewhere along the line someone fought for them. And we have to protect those rights, and our loved ones. If that means speaking against the government, boycotting and protesting and anything else, we do that. But, it also means that we protect our rights from enemies who would like to take them.

Those who picked to run will soon find themselves out of places to run to.

One more thing, a draft in my opinion is a moral thing, it creates an equal line between all economical layers and a social melting pot where you meet people you never would have otherwise. Not to mention that doing something for someone else is a good idea in general ( this is of course if the system is just and rich kids don't get papa to pay off a doctor to give them a note)

I did read the OP but I'm afraid you may have missed my point. The whole purpose of my reply was to state three things:

1)If the cause were just, I wouldn't need to be drafted because I would volunteer. Given your other assumptions it wouldn't be a jump for you to assume volunteering would include training.

2)It is not cowardice to refuse to kill just because you are told to do so.

3)There is a moral objection, but it is not with killing. The moral objection is being forced to kill. If you are going to kill another person, or even be part of the killing in an indirect role, it is important that you willingly agree to do so.

You speak of fighting for freedom, but a draft takes those freedoms away, and you cannot preserve freedom by restricting or eliminating it. Also, you mention illegal orders and not following them. This is a mute point entirely as I was speaking not of the military itself, but of the government which controls it. Moreover, being that the OP does not speak as to the justice of the upcoming possible conflict, I don't think it is fair to assume one way or another as to whether or not it would be a just cause. This is why I replied to both possibilities.

You speak of people jumping to cynicism... we're talking about WAR. You don't have to jump to cynicism, you're standing it in. War is what happens when things have gone wrong, and even when the cause is just, the outcome is ugly. It is never a good thing, though I'll admit it is necessary from time to time.

 

[Hiroshi Mishima]

The topic of this thread is really underdefined and leaves far too much open to interpretation, which I believe is the root of the problem with people having answers that seem uninformed or just extreme yes/no answers.

The country would still need people to work, otherwise the country couldn't even sustain itself. Even if all the women worked, it'd be a huge problem with all the kids of the country needing nannies and cared for. And what happens when the war is over? Those that fought go back to simple, standard jobs, and those that worked might not have one any more.

I also don't wish to kill anyone, or have a reason to. I don't like it an avoid it at all costs. I'd rather protect my family in person than be thousands of miles away, not knowing how they're doing, wondering if I'm really making a difference and improving their lives.
A parent should not have to think about burring their child, no matter how it was spent. It's no easier for kids who have to burry their parent either.

I also dislike the military in general. I'd help them, but would never join or be a part of it. My stand on the issue has nothing to do with having to obey their orders either.

This is pretty close to how I feel, personally.


However, I do have a problem with following orders. Not to mention, I have Asthma, Diabetes Type II, Tourette Syndrome, vision problems as a result of going undiagnosed as a Diabetic for several years, and I have really big problem with going apeshit when my patience/anger-tolerance gives out. I'm not only untrustworthy with a firearm (bad vision along with the jerkiness that the Tourettes causes) but if I were to have one of my "lose control" moments I could possibly end up injuring/killing someone on my own side.

Needless to say, I guess that means I'd be facing jail-time according to this thread's explanation. Since it sure does seem that everyone either enlists or goes to jail, and because I'm a.. what's the term.. Four F? I wouldn't be allowed to do anything like frontlines or combat involved. Plus I have problems retaining things I learned (college was proof of that), so even if I did join the civilians and learn a trade, I'd probably end up forgetting things as I go along which only leads to more problems and I'd ultimately come away with little to nothing after it was all over.

I really don't care much for the military. My father was in the Marine Corps, and I came to hate him.. although probably not because of his being in the military, he was just a dick in general. I would much rather be with my loved ones protecting them where I can be near them, rather than off to gods-knows where doing actual fighting. I realize this is supposed to be about "training" only and not the actual fighting, but as I said, I'd come away with nothing and it would be a poor waste of money on the government's part for training a washout like myself. You can call it cowardice or whatever else, but that's just patriotic bigotry towards those who literally can't do anything of value and henceforth would serve no purpose if they were involved.

Likewise, I don't really think that calling half of the people in here cowards really is justified because we have no idea how old most of them really are or if they've ever really been in a combat situation. Just because someone says "I'd run to Canada" and stops replying doesn't say anything about them besides them not wanting to be involved. For all we know, they could have been in the military already and dread the thought of ever going back.

 

[Gruthar]

There would have to be several factors involved, but generally speaking, I would willingly serve or enlist. Call me a naive romantic, but I've always viewed wartime military service as one of the most selfless things one can do.

I would accept whatever role was deemed best for me, but I would prefer to be in the thick of it. I hate sitting on the sidelines, being unable to directly influence the outcome of an event. Only if I had serious moral qualms over the particular conflict (see: Iraq) would I opt for something more behind-the-scenes.

Operating machinery is second nature to me, and I'm a decent shot at the range. I would be right at home as DM, so long as I got an M14 with decent optics -- I hate .223 -- but I would equally be content as part of a chopper/tank/APC/armed transport crew. I think I'm too tall/blind to be a fighter pilot.