Poll: Who is the biggest bastard in Game of Thrones? Season 3 spoilers
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For the purposes of this post, I'm going to ignore the words "biggest bastard" in the posed question, and replace it with "most evil person" (though for the purpose of completeness, Tormund Giantsbane was probably conceived out of wedlock, and is quite large. Is Hodor trueborn? Might be him, actually).
so...
There are so many characters who are just flat-out evil in that story... but I'd say Joffrey and Gregor (the Mountain) get a pass for mental incompetence. The insanity plea, if you will. They're both more like rabid dogs or forces of nature than people, and should have been put down accordingly before they had the chance to do the harm they did.
Tywin is not evil. Tywin is the most hidebound, acerbic, hateful sort of "Lawful" character out there... and I hate people like him more than almost any other type of person in this world... but he's not evil, he's just a dick.
Roose Bolton is like a lesser version of Tywin with a few kinks and a lot more empathy. Not evil, kind of a dick.
Walder Frey is an old man with a really powerful inferiority complex. He's also a coward. Only a bit evil... just a petty old man who has been bullied for his entire life and finally got his chance to strike back.
Ramsay Snow/Bolton is a rich boy sadist. He's not much of anything beyond that, though he is competent and relatively sane, so he's definitely up there in terms of evil. Bit of a one-note character, honestly.
Petyr Baelish (Littlefinger) is arguably the most successful evil character in the series... though his concerns are high-minded and strategic enough that it's hard to call him as evil as the more directly sadistic characters. He's more detached, slimier, more insidious and political... which would make him number one, if not for...
Cersei fucking Lannister (and yes, as far as I'm concerned, that is her middle name. It's so appropriate, like a double entendre... or triple... or maybe quadruple) is the most horrifically evil character I've ever encountered in fiction. Mind you, in the TV series they toned her down a bit... but this ***** would destroy anything or anyone to achieve her aims, if she only had the ability to do so. Politics, direct violence, physical or mental torture of family or anyone else... all more than acceptable tools for this sadistic, manipulative, and above all self-absorbed character.
...I typed four more paragraphs on Cersei and deleted them. Been reading these too recently, and I'm not sure those were even appropriate for spoiler tags.
so...
There are so many characters who are just flat-out evil in that story... but I'd say Joffrey and Gregor (the Mountain) get a pass for mental incompetence. The insanity plea, if you will. They're both more like rabid dogs or forces of nature than people, and should have been put down accordingly before they had the chance to do the harm they did.
Tywin is not evil. Tywin is the most hidebound, acerbic, hateful sort of "Lawful" character out there... and I hate people like him more than almost any other type of person in this world... but he's not evil, he's just a dick.
Roose Bolton is like a lesser version of Tywin with a few kinks and a lot more empathy. Not evil, kind of a dick.
Walder Frey is an old man with a really powerful inferiority complex. He's also a coward. Only a bit evil... just a petty old man who has been bullied for his entire life and finally got his chance to strike back.
Ramsay Snow/Bolton is a rich boy sadist. He's not much of anything beyond that, though he is competent and relatively sane, so he's definitely up there in terms of evil. Bit of a one-note character, honestly.
Petyr Baelish (Littlefinger) is arguably the most successful evil character in the series... though his concerns are high-minded and strategic enough that it's hard to call him as evil as the more directly sadistic characters. He's more detached, slimier, more insidious and political... which would make him number one, if not for...
Cersei fucking Lannister (and yes, as far as I'm concerned, that is her middle name. It's so appropriate, like a double entendre... or triple... or maybe quadruple) is the most horrifically evil character I've ever encountered in fiction. Mind you, in the TV series they toned her down a bit... but this ***** would destroy anything or anyone to achieve her aims, if she only had the ability to do so. Politics, direct violence, physical or mental torture of family or anyone else... all more than acceptable tools for this sadistic, manipulative, and above all self-absorbed character.
...I typed four more paragraphs on Cersei and deleted them. Been reading these too recently, and I'm not sure those were even appropriate for spoiler tags.
I hate Walder Frey, but out of the three principal players in the Red Wedding plot, I think Roose Bolton is the biggest bastard.Casual Shinji said:
Tywin is fighting a war with the Starks, and is doing whatever is in his power to win, and win cleanly. I can respect that, even if I don't like it.
Walder is a treacherous fuck, as you say. However, their is one thing, and only one thing, that I can say in his favour. At least he had a reason to do what he did. Robb Stark had insulted him, publically spitting in his face and making his whole house a laughing stock, after said house had sent thousands of men off to die for Robb.
Roose is guilty of all the same treasons as Walder. However, whereas Walder Frey acted out of revenge, Roose Bolton acted out of greed. He did it to advance his own power by destroying the Starks, nothing more, and personally delivered the finishing blow to a king who had done him no wrong.
EDIT: To top it off, I also thing Roose is just a more inherently cruel and callous character that any of the others. Oh, he's not the sadistic, scenery-chewing kind of cruel like Ramsey or Joffery are, he's something much worse. It's one thing to enjoy hurting and killing people, but in my opinion it's a lot creepier the way Roose can do things just as horrible as his son does, and just think nothing of it. Later on in the novels, he talks about raping Ramsey's mother as if it were nothing more than an afternoon's light amusement, and he talks about Ramsey murdering his true born son, and the fact that he will almost certainly murder any other true born son's Roose has in the future, as if it were only an inconvenience. At least when Ramsey revels in torture, or when Joffrey has a tantrum and orders someone dead, or when Walder Frey laughs gleefully at the sight of Starks being slaughtered, they attach some kind of meaning to these vile acts. Roose's acts are just as vile, and what's more he does not give a single fuck.
As much as I despise fuckf, uh I mean Joffery, I have to say Walder Frey. He is a dirty traitor and a murderer, and old enough to know better. Joffery is just a bastard child that thinks its normal.
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I don't know about that, Tywin is simply on the other side of the war and he did what he could to try and end it swiftly. I recall at one point he talked about mercy for their enemies because at one point they'd have to be reconciled. Hes not really a bastard or evil, just an effective player on the other side.mrhappy1489 said:
I think Roose Bolton would be pleased that most of the blame for the Red Wedding is going to Walder Frey, rather than him. Unfortunately for him, I hope show-viewers will start placing him on their 'most hated' lists soon - him and Ramsay will become major villains soon.
As much as I'd like to agree with that, Tywin is cold, cruel and callous. He has relatively little concern for others and does only what he can to further his own gains. In the same breath that is also an apt description of Littlefinger and Cersei as I'd argue too that they are equally as big a bastard as Tywin. Joffery may be cruel, vicious and stupid, but he's also still basically a child and more the spawn of a poor childhood, than just being vicious. While Tywin and Littlefinger do play the smallfolk and acknowledge their importance, with Cersei completely disregarding them, they're still willing to sacrifice thousands, just to move themselves that little further. Tywin may have just been playing for his side, but his actions throughout the war, such as hiring The Brave Companions and releasing Gregor Clegane across the Riverlands, show that he has no concern or care for others and is the biggest bastard in the series.Shock and Awe said:
Personally, I don't think either Walder Frey or Roose Bolton should be here. Sure, they're pricks, I'm not going to argue against it, however given consideration, there are justifiable reasons for what they did. Robb had lost, there was no arguing that, however he refused to surrender and was putting two entire provinces at the mercy of the realm. By continuing to act at war, he was sacrificing thousands, most of whom, had no choice in their fate. By acting at the Red Wedding, Roose and Walder ensured that not only were the losses going to end there, but that they'd benefit from it in the end. They're pricks, but at least they were pricks for good reasons.
Both Boltons are pretty bad. Joffrey is a bastard but he's just a little shit who's gonna get what's coming to him. The Boltons are just evil to the core.
Having only seen the TV series, I can't say I know Roose Bolton well enough yet to really hate him. He's obviously an asshole, but he seems to have been in the show only sporadically as of yet. The Red Wedding (in the show) was really played off as Frey's party.NinjaDeathSlap said:
Frey obviously had a bone to pick with Robb, but the way the episode in question was structured made it seem like water was mostly under the bridge. There's a tense moment where Robb introduces his wife and Frey makes a couple of skeezey insults regarding her looks. Throughout the rest of the episode though things seem to be looking genuinely up, with even a few very funny moments, like when everyone is knocked over backward by how beautiful Frey's daughter is, and Frey gives Robb this playful sneer.
The moment things turn to shit Bolton comes across more like the muscle man, and Frey is the one enjoying every minute of his treachery while drinking his booze and not giving a shit that one of his wives gets killed in the process.
Maybe season 4 can focus a bit more on the Boltons, but for now it's still Frey.
Gotta go with Ramsay. Joffrey, at heart, is just a kid with no limits or conscience - he's a jerk, but he acts out of pettyness, not evil - Ramsay's got that, and more - he's capable of greater cruelties, and of acting beyond the whims of the moment.
In other words, Ramsay is worse than Joffrey, because unlike Joffrey, he's smart enough to know he's doing wrong - he just gets a kick out of it. And he's better at it.
In other words, Ramsay is worse than Joffrey, because unlike Joffrey, he's smart enough to know he's doing wrong - he just gets a kick out of it. And he's better at it.
Ramsay definitely. Reading Theon's chapters in ADWD and learning of the things Ramsay was doing made me literally sick, and that's not an easy thing to do with words. He is a truly horrible and irredeemable person. I can understand people like Littlefinger who have motives and ambitions. I can understand even Joffrey and his spoiled, stupid behaviour. But Ramsay has nothing; he just likes to torture people in terrifying ways. There's nothing behind it, no human understandable needs. There is no way to please him, other than suffer. And he wants nothing else than to torture people.
Besides him, The Mountain. For basically the same reasons.
Besides him, The Mountain. For basically the same reasons.
Can't agree here.Reaper195 said:
Was it bad? Yes. Will Walder get what's coming to him? Yes, and to extent he already has. Did he do it for no good reason? Heck no.
The Starks are utter and complete morons. Walder Frey owns a castle in the arse end of nowhere and his one key to advancing himself and his family was in marrying his daughter to Rob, providing Rob wins the war. He was fucked over by Rob and back to square one, so he makes another deal to advance his family and this one happens to work. This is a very real situation and I appreciated how it played out. Very few people care about a "just and true cause", they only care about themselves. They are petty and greedy. Rob fucked up and he payed for it, he screwed over the wrong person and never listened to one of his bannermen (Roose Bolton) and so was betrayed. No amount of good looks, fan love, or +10 morality/honor shield saved him, and it was great. The Brutality and disrespect was a bit much, I'll concede to that, but I suppose that is what happens when you are looking to mock disrespect someone.
I particularly liked the scene in the show where Catelyn says, "On my honor as a Stark, on my honor as Tully, if you let Rob go we'll forget this ever happened." Walder just sneers at her and says basically, what honor? Your stupid son gave me his word, on his honor that he'd marry my daughter, and look how well that turned out for me. But, like I said, I fully expect the Starks to have their revenge in one form or another, even if I don't think they deserve it.
When you walk around parading your "honorable" values and virtues, then cave on them, you have nothing. And characters with nothing to offer tend to not stick around in this series.
I voted for Ramsay Snow, but that may have been a bit premature. I just finished A Dance With Dragons a few days ago, and let's just say you haven't seen Ramsay's true dickery just yet.
As for the show...halfway through book 3...yeah, my vote goes to Walder Frey. Red Wedding was not even the worst part. It was casually throwing away the life of one of his wives just for the sake of revenge that really got to me.
As for the show...halfway through book 3...yeah, my vote goes to Walder Frey. Red Wedding was not even the worst part. It was casually throwing away the life of one of his wives just for the sake of revenge that really got to me.