Poll: Would true democracy work?

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Melaisis

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BlueMage said:
Larenxis said:
What happens when the benevolent dictator dies?
Their similarly-ideal'd protege steps up.
No two men are ever alike.

Y'know why Fidel Castro demanded to stay in power for, quite literally, his lifetime? Because he looked at similar nations to his and thought 'oh snap! That ain't gonna go too well!'. From Lenin's 'legacy' to Mao's demise: All we've seen from dictatorships is how quickly they meet their demise. After all, who the Hell is going to accept a position willingly that powerful? Natural-born leaders are the first ones to ascend to power and start a revolution, but then what? After their era is gone, all the fuel which ignited their cause dies with it. All that remains is an ageing system and inter-party (even if there's only one) affairs which hardly solve anything; nevermind who will lead them next.
 

UnlimitedAccess

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Dec 5, 2007
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I'm not a big supporter of Democracy.

The majority vote brought us Pop music, George W Bush and Religion. I'd rather some sort of cabinet based meritocracy or some thing else entirely.

The idea that my father a rice farmer, who self admittedly barely knows what the word foreign policy or foreign trades means, why should he influence such things or even care - I think he should have a choice on how much he involves himself and on what issues, not vote for one party or another which stands for a whole list of issues he doesnt have the time or inclination to read (that goes for most people as well, most party members dont even understand there entire portfolio properly).

(Lets forget about social issues, I dont think governments have any rights to them, so those types of laws should be deregulated. And thus democracy isn't even relevant.)

I think a blend would be nice. I think local governments should be elected and directly deal with issues of local communities. I think thats where democracy really shines. My father might know nothing about the economy but when it comes to how much water he can use for irrigation or how the tomato factory stinks up the town twice a year he can talk endlessly and would like to vote for politicians that deal with issues he directly sees.

Obviously im not implying people shouldn't have a say in federal issues anymore, their still needs to be public discourse. But I think Debating should be the foundation of federal issues and not majority vote. I think federal governments should spend 90% of there time debating issues and getting peer reviewed journals commissioned and working with academic institutions to make the best decisions for a country. One person who speaks and presents his findings should be able to contradict 30 people if his evidence is stronger. The way I worded that sounded like a court of law right? Well it was intentional. As bloated as the legal system is, its limitations come from hand picked jury's consisting of regular people being the ultimate decision makers and with comments and evidence being stricken from the record in the name of privacy.

A federal government based on such a legal system would have no such limitations, in the name of Science all evidence can be presented because it doesn't come down to privacy issues. The money saved on election campaigns then can be used to actually inform the issues to the public, also without politicians fearing being not elected (just fearing having dumb arguments) have no incentive to be dishonest. Lying, falsifying evidence or commissioning bogus reports would be the utmost crime.
 

werepossum

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Sep 12, 2007
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The_root_of_all_evil said:
I'd like to see some evidence of this before I condemn a whole group of people. And I'd also like to see that the same thing isn't done by 'legals'.
Spend some time getting to know hospital administrators or emergency room workers. Or just spend some time in an emergency room. Legal residents and citizens do the same thing, but in much smaller numbers. Illegals are MUCH less likely to have insurance than legal residents - one of the things that makes them so attractive to hire is not paying benefits, which in the USA typically run between 20% and 60% of salary depending on salary, company, and state/local government requirements. Therefore illegals are less likely to have family doctors and use emergency room services at a higher rate. I won't quote any studies, because most I've seen seem to me to be obviously biased for or against illegals. My figures are from many conversations with personal acquaintances in hospital administration and construction and from following budget battles for our local hospitals - this is a huge issue which is putting our hospitals in the red and straining budgets for new construction, renovation, and equipment replacement and upgrades.

As far as condemning a group of people, no group of people is responsible for what some (even most) of its members do. As a libertarian, I hold each individual responsible for his or her own behavior. I won't comment on condemnation as a whole - each person's individual situation is diffferent - except to say that everyone needs to pay his or her own way. If you have a bill that you cannot pay, that's a pity. If you have a bill and don't pay it because you choose to spend your money on other things (car payments, cell phone, beer and pizza, etc.) - well, that's one of the main differences between good people and bad people.
 

edinflames

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Dec 21, 2007
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Since this is a thread on Democracy and many of you appear to have given up on 'people', I thought I'd quote, (who I believe to be) the most important American that ever lived, Thomas Jefferson (a very smart man) for you all, to try and demonstrate the potential hope there is for humankind (and democracy as a means of government):

"Educate and inform the whole mass of the people... They are the only sure reliance for the preservation of our liberty."

"All, too, will bear in mind this sacred principle, that though the will of the majority is in all cases to prevail, that will to be rightful must be reasonable; that the minority possess their equal rights, which equal law must protect, and to violate would be oppression."

"Enlighten the people generally, and tyranny and oppressions of body and mind will vanish like evil spirits at the dawn of day."

"Errors of opinion may be tolerated where reason is left free to combat it."

"Every generation needs a new revolution."

"Every government degenerates when trusted to the rulers of the people alone. The people themselves are its only safe depositories."

"If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be."

"The care of human life and happiness, and not their destruction, is the first and only object of good government."

"The whole commerce between master and slave is a perpetual exercise of the most boisterous passions, the most unremitting despotism on the one part, and degrading submissions on the other. Our children see this, and learn to imitate it."

"To penetrate and dissipate these clouds of darkness, the general mind must be strengthened by education."

"We may consider each generation as a distinct nation, with a right, by the will of its majority, to bind themselves, but none to bind the succeeding generation, more than the inhabitants of another country."

"I hope we shall crush in its birth the aristocracy of our monied corporations which dare already to challenge our government to a trial by strength, and bid defiance to the laws of our country."

"Dependence begets subservience and venality, suffocates the germ of virtue, and prepares fit tools for the designs of ambition."

Finally, and most importantly:
"I know of no safe depository of the ultimate powers of the society but the people themselves; and if we think them not enlightened enough to exercise their control with a wholesome discretion, the remedy is not to take it from them but to inform their discretion."
- Thomas Jefferson

Educate the masses. There is NO reason why 'the people' should not come to understand the Truth of the world in which they live. Truth is unquestionably the supreme virtue (if I did not believe this then I would already have given up on our poor, mislead species and ceased to resist the urge to fall into alcoholism) behind which all other virtues worthy of upholding fall in to place. Jefferson accurately identified the greatest threats to Liberty and the greatest threat to the ruling elite (namely, Education).

One final quote from JFK (the greatest, most valuable statement he ever made), I urge you all to think hard on this statement, as I have and still do:
"The very word 'secrecy' is repugnant in a free and open society; and we are as a people inherently and historically opposed to secret societies, to secret oaths, and to secret proceedings. For we are opposed around the world by a monolithic and ruthless conspiracy that relies primarily on covet means for expanding its sphere of influence...It is a system which has conscripted vast human and material resources into the building of a tightly knit, highly efficient machine that combines military, diplomatic, intelligence, economic, scientific and political operations. Its preparations are concealed, not published; its mistakes are buried, not headlined; its dissenters are silenced, not praised; no expenditure is questioned, no secret is revealed. That is why the Athenian lawmaker Seoul decreed it a crime for any citizen to shrink from controversy. I am asking your help, in the tremendous task of informing and alerting the American people, confident that with your help, Man will be what he was born to be: Free and independent." - John F. Kennedy. (and then some chap shot him)

Apologies for length.
 

UnlimitedAccess

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Dec 5, 2007
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Well I'm not American and its presumptuous to assume we all are.

But just because we don't support democracy does not need to imply we think countries should be ran without peoples influence.

The current system involves two parties, each with a list of things they support for whatever reason. And everyone is meant to pick one side or the other, what kind of joke is that? Each issue should be dealt with individually on its own merits. I just don't like the idea of 3 - 4 year dictatorship and crossing our fingers for the best, which is essentially what we have. If thats what democracy is, I dont want it.
 

jgtg32a

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Mar 26, 2008
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Other I live in a Republic and am glad of it because I want to live my life w/o worrying about every damn law that they want to pass if I was in a Democracy then I would have to put up with that.

I make damn sure I know who I have representing me, and not just the President, but the Legislators and of course the local government.

If something comes up and I have a strong opinion on it then I'll call my Legislators and let them know my opinions.


I'm appalled that you think your vote doesn't matter, I'm think thats because of the Florida mess. Every other state got a vote, the idiots in Florida just can't figure out how the machines work and posted there numbers last so suddenly they are the only people whose vote mattered.
 

Larenxis

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Dec 13, 2007
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UnlimitedAccess said:
Well I'm not American and its presumptuous to assume we all are.
Um, I'm Canadian. And not old enough to vote. Although I've joined a municipal party where I can vote for the mayoral candidate. Still can't vote for mayor, but you know, I'll take what I can get.
 

edinflames

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Dec 21, 2007
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If someone doesn't make a comment on the excessively long post I made on page 3 I will be most upset -_^
 

jezz8me

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Mar 27, 2008
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It should just be done like the swiss do it. Representative democracy for the small things but anything big they vote on.

Pure Democracy would cost to much.
 

John Galt

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Dec 29, 2007
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Well, since this poll has carried into four pages, I feel our answer is here. It works on the internet best.
 

werepossum

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Sep 12, 2007
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Saskwach said:
This is true. I skipped a paragraph but have you mentioned the benefit of having one with impending oil peak (considering the energy requirements of transportation)? Because that's a good reason, too.
Yup, third point, extra energy. Huge point with current oil prices. Unfortunately we've gotten into shipping food all over the place rather than consuming it near its point of production.
 

werepossum

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Sep 12, 2007
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edinflames said:
Since this is a thread on Democracy and many of you appear to have given up on 'people', I thought I'd quote, (who I believe to be) the most important American that ever lived, Thomas Jefferson (a very smart man) for you all, to try and demonstrate the potential hope there is for humankind (and democracy as a means of government):

"Educate and inform the whole mass of the people... They are the only sure reliance for the preservation of our liberty."

"All, too, will bear in mind this sacred principle, that though the will of the majority is in all cases to prevail, that will to be rightful must be reasonable; that the minority possess their equal rights, which equal law must protect, and to violate would be oppression."

"Enlighten the people generally, and tyranny and oppressions of body and mind will vanish like evil spirits at the dawn of day."

"Errors of opinion may be tolerated where reason is left free to combat it."

"Every generation needs a new revolution."

"Every government degenerates when trusted to the rulers of the people alone. The people themselves are its only safe depositories."

"If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be."

"The care of human life and happiness, and not their destruction, is the first and only object of good government."

"The whole commerce between master and slave is a perpetual exercise of the most boisterous passions, the most unremitting despotism on the one part, and degrading submissions on the other. Our children see this, and learn to imitate it."

"To penetrate and dissipate these clouds of darkness, the general mind must be strengthened by education."

"We may consider each generation as a distinct nation, with a right, by the will of its majority, to bind themselves, but none to bind the succeeding generation, more than the inhabitants of another country."

"I hope we shall crush in its birth the aristocracy of our monied corporations which dare already to challenge our government to a trial by strength, and bid defiance to the laws of our country."

"Dependence begets subservience and venality, suffocates the germ of virtue, and prepares fit tools for the designs of ambition."

Finally, and most importantly:
"I know of no safe depository of the ultimate powers of the society but the people themselves; and if we think them not enlightened enough to exercise their control with a wholesome discretion, the remedy is not to take it from them but to inform their discretion."
- Thomas Jefferson

Educate the masses. There is NO reason why 'the people' should not come to understand the Truth of the world in which they live. Truth is unquestionably the supreme virtue (if I did not believe this then I would already have given up on our poor, mislead species and ceased to resist the urge to fall into alcoholism) behind which all other virtues worthy of upholding fall in to place. Jefferson accurately identified the greatest threats to Liberty and the greatest threat to the ruling elite (namely, Education).

One final quote from JFK (the greatest, most valuable statement he ever made), I urge you all to think hard on this statement, as I have and still do:
"The very word 'secrecy' is repugnant in a free and open society; and we are as a people inherently and historically opposed to secret societies, to secret oaths, and to secret proceedings. For we are opposed around the world by a monolithic and ruthless conspiracy that relies primarily on covet means for expanding its sphere of influence...It is a system which has conscripted vast human and material resources into the building of a tightly knit, highly efficient machine that combines military, diplomatic, intelligence, economic, scientific and political operations. Its preparations are concealed, not published; its mistakes are buried, not headlined; its dissenters are silenced, not praised; no expenditure is questioned, no secret is revealed. That is why the Athenian lawmaker Seoul decreed it a crime for any citizen to shrink from controversy. I am asking your help, in the tremendous task of informing and alerting the American people, confident that with your help, Man will be what he was born to be: Free and independent." - John F. Kennedy. (and then some chap shot him)

Apologies for length.
Okay, I'll comment. It's a good post, well reasoned and temperate in tone. Jefferson was a great man. (Except that bit about freeing his slaves in his will; if you truly believe slavery is wrong, you should free your slaves while you are still living and can give them the help they'll need. Personally I give no points for freeing slaves when you die and have thus wrung out every bit of labor you can get, leaving them broke and alone in a hostile land.) I would point out that I personally don't want to do away with democracy as Jefferson set it up. Rather, I'd like to go back to that point, with direct elections for the House and the states appoint the Senate. But I think two things have doomed us from recovering that. First, the War Between the States. If the states could not agree on something as fundamental as whether or not a person can be property, it's hard to see that level of autonomy ever returning. Which is not to say slavery would be an issue today, just that other hot button issues (abortion, welfare, immigration) would be too devisive for the states to play fair. (Put another way, the human urge to force others to behave as you desire them to behave is, um, very strong.)

Second, the two party system is breaking us, with allegiance to party much stronger in politicians than allegiance to country. When Lieberman ran against Lamont in the Connecticut primary, almost all Democratic politicians endorsed Lieberman as the better candidate. When Lamont won the primary and Lieberman ran as an independant, every one endorsed Lamont. Neither man was materially different from the day before; only the Party's stamp was different. (I don't have a Republican example handy, but I doubt anyone thinks they are any different.) Unfortunately the only presidential candidate who has been willing to work with the other side - McCain - differs from me on pretty much every important issue. (Always it's voting for the lesser evil...)

That said, education has too often devolved into what an organization wants you to believe rather than teaching you to think. Government schools have abandoned teaching logic and hard (science-based) facts in favor of teaching soft facts and opinions - rather than teaching students HOW to think, they want to teach them WHAT to think. It's no coincidence that "I feel that" has replaced "I think that" in our common lexicon. Then too, we have lost much of our morality. There is an ethics tracking test that has been given to a selection of high school seniors since before WWII. I forget the name, but one of the questions is "You should not cheat because:" In the nineties, "you might get caught" finally replaced "it's wrong."

I'll give you a quote from John Adams:
"We have no government armed in power capable of contending with human
passions unbridled by morality and religion. Our Constitution was made
only for a religious and moral people. It is wholly inadequate for the
government of any other."

I fear we are becoming just that, where the human urge to take from others because you can has become too hard to resist. I still support representative democracy - democracy is after all the worst form of government except for all the others - but I've no desire to see direct democracy.

As for Kennedy - I pay more attention to a man's actions than his words. Kennedy kept his share of secrets.
 

edinflames

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Dec 21, 2007
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werepossum said:
That said, education has too often devolved into what an organization wants you to believe rather than teaching you to think. Government schools have abandoned teaching logic and hard (science-based) facts in favor of teaching soft facts and opinions - rather than teaching students HOW to think, they want to teach them WHAT to think. It's no coincidence that "I feel that" has replaced "I think that" in our common lexicon. Then too, we have lost much of our morality. There is an ethics tracking test that has been given to a selection of high school seniors since before WWII. I forget the name, but one of the questions is "You should not cheat because:" In the nineties, "you might get caught" finally replaced "it's wrong."

I'll give you a quote from John Adams:
"We have no government armed in power capable of contending with human
passions unbridled by morality and religion. Our Constitution was made
only for a religious and moral people. It is wholly inadequate for the
government of any other."

I fear we are becoming just that, where the human urge to take from others because you can has become too hard to resist. I still support representative democracy - democracy is after all the worst form of government except for all the others - but I've no desire to see direct democracy.

As for Kennedy - I pay more attention to a man's actions than his words. Kennedy kept his share of secrets.
Ah yes, I do agree with you on the nature of contemporary education. Sadly things are much the same on my side of the pond (Britain). Didn't know about Jefferson's slaves...very interesting. But then he was a man full of contradictions from what little I have studied of him, that said he is very quotable ;) And yeah, Kennedy and the mafia and all that...still, I do find that particular quote to be fascinating. A good public speaker, regardless of the many skeletons in his closet.

I was (perhaps in vain) trying to put an optimistic spin on the thread, but your post made me remember the reality of modern curriculum education.

It does make one wonder if the people in power are getting what they paid for...I mean, the only English speaking nation in the top 10 for worldwide school-level education standards (in any of the three main disciplines: maths, literacy and science) is Canada. Do the British and American governments want the majority to be stupid? They are going the right way about it.

On a certain level I can't accept the Adams statement...if I did then I would have to abandon my Atheist belief that people who aren't religious are equally capable of being 'good'. But I understand what you are saying by using it. Modern morality is or tends to be, frankly, absurd.
 

CanadianWolverine

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Feb 1, 2008
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I thought the quotes from Thomas Jefferson and JFK were good. We could probably pull up a few from Benjamin Franklin, Abraham Lincoln, and FDR as well. Needless to say, US has had some very good public speakers in the past - for some reason that makes me think of the Greeks and later the Romans who have been highlighted with quotes in antiquity as well.

It does tend to make one think about that, is the education what is desired from it funding or lack there of, doesn't it? That is why personally, I have my own personal library of little bits of knowledge here and there I hope to pass on to my daughter, that is why I am assuming responsibility for her education.

Could True Democracy work? Can human beings show love all the time, even in the smallest of groups? I think we know the answer and while it is not encouraging, it can be - work with in the constraints of the imperfect human condition. I think the US was doing pretty good there for a while, well understood its checks and balances stuff, but lately, roughly since about World War I, things have been going ... for lack of a better word, elitist, though more commonly it is referred to as arrogant. When I think of those who also seem globally arrogant, Spain, UK, France, Germany, Russia, Japan, China all come to mind.

I think what does work is Direct Democracy needs to be local (as in say, regional district or municipality), Representative Democracy should spring from that to any larger body of government, but localized government should always preside over any decision made by a centralized government, they are the ones who have to make it work without hurting their neighbors after all. I think even democracy breaks down horribly when it is centralized, because the farther you live from that center of the people's power, the less relevant its decisions to local practical it seems to get. At some point, I would say even groups larger than ten people experience this, it seems people stop being names and faces - someone you have a relationship with - and just become a faceless number which you have no connection to and thus no problem giving the shaft to.

I think even before the US had Bush foisted on them, things were gradually deteriorating for the state of your union, sorry to say. I really hope my family, friends, and neighbors make out alright by turning things around or by just getting out period, though turning things around would be far the better option. To be honest though, I wouldn't be able to say Canada is doing much better, as I seem to have lost all understanding why my letters / emails to my MLA, MP, and various ministers federal and provincial do not seem to have gotten across to any of them my desire for getting out of Afghanistan, having more say in who is in the Senate, and encouraging them to start placing more power in the local level than in the centralized levels of government. For all I know, the current minority federal gov could be eroding Canadian freedoms to, and I want to grok the situation better but don't know where to begin.

I answered "Try to be informed about my voting decision" but as you can see, its never quite as simple as all that, eh? Independent thought, information, decision making - it seems to require a dedication to continue to see it happen. Perhaps this is our revolution, using the internet to see that our concerns are addressed in a proper manner that does not brush it aside dismissively, to arm each other with constructive thought and evidence that holds up under scrutiny.
 

PedroSteckecilo

Mexican Fugitive
Feb 7, 2008
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My name may or may not be Pedro Steckecilo I do not believe in democracy. A Meritocratic Oligarchy suits my tastes in governance better.