Poll: Would true democracy work?

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CanadianWolverine

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Feb 1, 2008
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Meritocratic Oligarchy can't help but stagnate their areas they find to have merit by lack of innovation and synergy because no matter which merits you choose, there are those merits that are deemed "unworthy".

Democracies allow enthusiasts, innovators, and entrepreneurs to decide the worthiness of their own merits.
 

Larenxis

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Dec 13, 2007
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CanadianWolverine said:
To be honest though, I wouldn't be able to say Canada is doing much better, as I seem to have lost all understanding why my letters / emails to my MLA, MP, and various ministers federal and provincial do not seem to have gotten across to any of them my desire for getting out of Afghanistan, having more say in who is in the Senate, and encouraging them to start placing more power in the local level than in the centralized levels of government. For all I know, the current minority federal gov could be eroding Canadian freedoms to, and I want to grok the situation better but don't know where to begin.
I hear ya. I know tons about American federal politics, but hardly anything about Canada's. Every once and a while they say they're not doing anything about Afghanistan and that's all I get. Whatever happened to the $10 minimum wage that the NDP were going after?
 
Feb 13, 2008
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werepossum said:
My figures are from many conversations with personal acquaintances in hospital administration and construction and from following budget battles for our local hospitals - this is a huge issue which is putting our hospitals in the red and straining budgets for new construction, renovation, and equipment replacement and upgrades.

As far as condemning a group of people, no group of people is responsible for what some (even most) of its members do.
My apologies. I took you to be a radicalist. Whilst it may be true that 'illegals' are draining our resources though, isn't that the problem of a Democracy, that all individuals are treated the same?

Communism, for example, (and not just to get a rise out of the Americans) would eliminate this problem, as would Feudalism and quite a few Republics.

edinflames said:
There is NO reason why 'the people' should not come to understand the Truth of the world in which they live.
I can think of one big one. They enjoy their ignorance. Freedom of Choice also comes with Responsibility of Choice.
 

werepossum

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The_root_of_all_evil said:
My apologies. I took you to be a radicalist. Whilst it may be true that 'illegals' are draining our resources though, isn't that the problem of a Democracy, that all individuals are treated the same?

Communism, for example, (and not just to get a rise out of the Americans) would eliminate this problem, as would Feudalism and quite a few Republics.
No apologies needed. I prefer to think of treating all individuals the same as a strength of democracies, although in our (America's) case we certainly took our sweet time getting around to it. Certainly illegals are draining our public resources - I've seen quotes as high as 26% on welfare programs versus 2% actually being migrant workers picking produce (most migrant workers are legal.) As to whether or not illegals are draining our resources, I can't really form an opinion on that. As I said, every study seems to me to be biased going into it, one way or another. I do know they exert considerable downward influence on wages; in our area a drywaller got about $18 an hour fifteen years ago and $10 or $12 today, because of cheap (usually illegal) labor. This puts more money in the pockets of the rich (relatively speaking) owners of contracting businesses and buildings, but less in the pockets of the workers, thereby accelerating the growth in the gap between rich and poor. The drywaller who gives it up because of the competition of cheap labor (legal or illegal) and looks for another line of work has to be willing to work for less than the prevailing wage in that line of work, else he's not attractive to employers.

As to whether illegals are a net drain or a net boost to the country as a whole, your guess is as good as mine; there's really no one I trust to compile and interpret such a huge mound of information. Cheap labor lowers the overall cost of the building (or manufacturing, chicker processing, etc.) and therefore lowers the cost of the product through competition, which in turn raises the standard of living for all those not affected (or positively affected) by the lower wages. It's pretty complicated.

Personally I think you shouldn't have laws if you are not going to enforce them. Either we should enforce the border and immigration laws, or we should open it and stop referring to ourselves as a country. We could be the United General Vicinity of America. But that isn't saying the illegals are or are not a net boost or drag.
 

werepossum

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UnlimitedAccess said:
Well I'm not American and its presumptuous to assume we all are.

But just because we don't support democracy does not need to imply we think countries should be ran without peoples influence.

The current system involves two parties, each with a list of things they support for whatever reason. And everyone is meant to pick one side or the other, what kind of joke is that? Each issue should be dealt with individually on its own merits. I just don't like the idea of 3 - 4 year dictatorship and crossing our fingers for the best, which is essentially what we have. If thats what democracy is, I dont want it.
No one is presuming you are American - probably the bulk of those on this board are not. America's system has two parties, but there are numerous other forms of democractic government. A parlimentary form of government can have numerous parties competing for your vote, which almost always results in a coalition government. The bad thing about a coalition government is that it is difficult to accomplish anything major. The good thing about a coalition government, of course, is that it is difficult to accomplish anything major. No one's life, liberty, or property is safe when Congress is in session. (Add the Supreme Court to that as well.) And yeah, that whole "no confidence" thing has looked pretty good many times during my life.

For those of you not within the good ol' USA, allow me to quote an example. The Supreme Court decided in 2005 (Kelo vs City of New London) that a government may seize your property and turn it over to another private citizen, with you receiving whatever compensation that government deems reasonable, if that private citizen can convince the government that the government itself would benefit more if he owned your property. The specific case involved modest homes built on a river front. The developer wanted to build high-priced condominiums; the home owners refused to sell for what the developer offered. The developer then went to the City of New London and convinced them that the City would benefit from additional tax revenue if the condos were built, so the City seized the homes and turned them over to the developer. After a long string of court cases it reached the Supreme Court, which upheld the ruling for City of New London. In one fell swoop Americans have been reduced to virtual serfs whose highest purpose in life is to generate revenue for government.

So yeah, I'm up for another form of democracy; I think we've broken ours.
 

GodofMadness

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Mar 23, 2008
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we are useing a form baced of a 450BC model. the same problems that stuffted it up them are haping now. the entiere sytem is bilt of the Smart Minipulating the dumb into likeing them
 
Feb 13, 2008
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For those of you not within the good ol' USA, allow me to quote an example
Let's see...UK Laws allow:

The Police to break up and arrest anyone within 5 miles of a rave. (A Rave being defined as a group of people playing repetitive music.)
The Police have the right to arrest Travellers on Public Property, burn down their caravans and charge them for burning it.
Up to 3 days incarceration without trial, it was nearly extended to 3 months...or is that still in the process of going through?
etc.
 

Larenxis

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GodofMadness said:
the entiere sytem is bilt of the Smart Minipulating the dumb into likeing them
I think it's clever (although probably unintentional) that you used the word 'dumb'.
Silence is submission. If you don't speak, who will?
 

PedroSteckecilo

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Feb 7, 2008
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I would only believe in democracy if there were a required IQ test along with your ballot. The fact that stupid, ignorant people breed more and become the majority makes me afraid for the future of humanity.
 

Chilango2

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Oct 3, 2007
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PedroSteckecilo said:
I would only believe in democracy if there were a required IQ test along with your ballot. The fact that stupid, ignorant people breed more and become the majority makes me afraid for the future of humanity.
Of course, IQ is so sufficently determined by race and class, this basiclly means "wahhh I don't want poor people to vote! Or black people either!"

Ah well, Jim Crow worked so well before, why not try it again? /sarcasm
 
Feb 13, 2008
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Perhaps a little strong Chilango2...IQ tests can be altered to suit, or just use EIQ instead.

A "Willingness to take Responsibility" test wouldn't go amiss though.

Hell, I'll settle for a Voight-Kampf test.
 

Easykill

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Sep 13, 2007
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There's nothing wrong with eugenics. I decided not to have kids because I'd probably pass my bad hearing on to my kid and I see no reason why a kid needs to be genetically similar to me for it to be mine.

Actually, as I've thought more about this, I've changed my mind. This probably could work. Less corruption because there is no one in charge except maybe a committee that forwards plans to the public to accept or deny. And we could keep the parties, except now, instead of tearing the oppositions throat out, they highlight important decisions and try to educate the public about them. Of course, they'd add their own spin, but that's alright.

Electronic voting centers(different ones for provincial and National issues) always open, a TV station and website published by the government that talk and educate the public about new proposals, and probably even independent media that do the same thing in more detail. And there could be no secrets hidden from the public, or from anyone else, but it's worth it. We'd need to give the committee the power to make some instant decisions involving diplomacy and stuff, but we can override their actions in a post-decision vote.

But we need to be VERY sure that the results cannot be tampered with. As for peoples' stupidity, this might actually minimize that. Granted, there will probably be a period where everyone tries to make no taxes and free everything, but that would change quickly, after we learned our lesson.
 
Feb 13, 2008
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j-e-f-f-e-r-s said:
Take the dullest, most ignornant kid you can find, and give him something truly engaging to do, and you'll see fireworks light up in his mind.
Take the most ignorant adult though, and you can turn a bright kid into a knuckle-dragging sloth. :(
 

Chilango2

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Easykill said:
There's nothing wrong with eugenics. I decided not to have kids because I'd probably pass my bad hearing on to my kid and I see no reason why a kid needs to be genetically similar to me for it to be mine.
Do you even know what eugenics is? It basically posits that you can breed humans for "traits" the way you can breed, say, dogs. Unfortunetly for you, the scientific evidence for this view is just about null. The vast majority of diseases are partly genetics and partly actual behavior, which varies highly from person to person. The more scientific research on this subject comes out, the more it has become clear that it is the circumstances of how one is raised and one lives that determine most things, rather than heredity.

So we've established it's not scientific. Additionally, its a favorite view among racists.

That should answer the "what is wrong?" question sufficiently.

On a larger level, there's a fundamental problem with the conception that "stupid people" are to blame for our problems, and that having smart people rule would solve them. Human beings, even smart human beings, screw up. History is replete with examples. Read, for example, The Best and the Brightest, a book about how the ruling class of the United States entered and stayed in the imbroglio of Vietnam.

As for any test whatsoever, I do not believe it would work, because it forgets the basic function of democracy. Legitimacy, which means stability. Giving every adult the vote is the only way to achieve that goal on any sort of long term basis. Why should the poor accept any test that disenfranchises them? History and common sense would make clear that they would not. As for a test for "how much you care" assuming you can even test such a thing, there are obvious reasons why the disadvantaged of a society may care less about it.

Universal Sufferage provides a second function when it is allowed to work properly, and that is to *change policy peacefully*. When elites who believes themselves to be intellectually or morally superior are in charge, and when they commit mistakes (which being only partly rational humans, they are prone to do) they will have a hard time seeing the fault in their own policies, since they are invested in being "right" (a natural and unavoidable human flaw). Universal suffrage tends to avoid that problem, it allows experimentation, learning, and swapping of different ruling groups with different priorities to see how they work. Democracy isn't the bets system because it makes the "least" mistakes, but rather because mistakes are more easily recovered from.

To put it more simply, it's the failures of a system that should concern someone, and the historical record is clear that universal democracy more easily and quickly corrects for failures than any other system.
 
Feb 13, 2008
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Giving every adult the vote is the only way to achieve that goal on any sort of long term basis.
Disagree. Because the vote can only work if the voter can comprehend the Truth, and a Politician's Goal is to Pervert the Truth to serve themselves. And sometimes the voter doesn't want to know or can't handle the Truth.

How many Republican/Democrat/Tory/Liberal/Labour/Green etc. broadcasts start with "Well, look what the other guy did..."?
How many voters are prepared to make sacrifices of their own ideals to protect society?

And that's way before you determine what an "adult" is.
 

Easykill

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Yes, I know what Eugenics is, at least to the extent that I read a few Wikipedia articles like a year ago. And I wasn't saying anything about the intelligence thing, because brains are way to complex for something like Eugenics to have any effect on within a few generations. I was just saying there isn't anything wrong with the concept. I then used my bad hearing, which I got from my father, to back my point. Since I got it from my father, not breeding is a good idea, because I'd probably pass it on. Eugenics.
I don't believe on forcing it on anyone, Well... Maybe some people(I'm looking at you Paris). But I REALLY don't believe in letting a few people taint what is essentially a good thing.