Poll: Would you play a game with feminist overtones?

[FalloutJack]

-Feminism-

Here's the thing. I don't understand feminism anymore. I understand equality of sexes, the breaking of stereotypes, and so on...but I really don't know what it's all for anymore, because it's like one of those things that's become it's OWN stereotype because of the extremists within feminist groups.

 

[Lazier Than Thou]

Yes. And I would hope everyone else would, too.

Because yes, you ARE a feminist [http://tomatonation.com/culture-and-criticism/yes-you-are/]. All of you. Unless you're a misogynist, and in that case a horrible person.

No. I'm not.

1 : the theory of the political, economic, and social equality of the sexes 2 : organized activity on behalf of women's rights and interests

Those are mutually exclusive. If you're working for the betterment of women's rights, but not for the betterment of men's rights, you're a female supremacist, not a egalitarian. The mere fact that it's called "feminism" defines that it's not about equality, it's about femininity.

I am not a female supremacist. I am not a feminist.

 

[Thaluikhain]

Here's the thing. I don't understand feminism anymore. I understand equality of sexes, the breaking of stereotypes, and so on...but I really don't know what it's all for anymore, because it's like one of those things that's become it's OWN stereotype because of the extremists within feminist groups.

It's still for equality of sexes and the breaking of stereotypes and so on.

It's just that the conservatives did a much better job of discrediting it than they have with most other things. "God hates fags"...that had only strictly limited success, it's easy to see through that one.

But "all feminists are lesbians" (because lesbians are always wrong), "all feminists are like nazis" (because Hitler invaded Poland in the name of gender equality), "there's more sexism against men" (because making women equal to men wouldn't, by definition, involve men being equal to women)...that sort of thing really has taken off.

There's also that weird assumption that people become angry (and therefore wrong) when they join a movement devoted to changing something, rather than they join a movement devoted to changing something because they are angry about whatever they want to be changed. And then there's the thing how it's somehow worse to call someone up on acts of prejudice than acts of prejudice itself...though these are hardly issues facing feminism alone.

 

[Thaluikhain]

1 : the theory of the political, economic, and social equality of the sexes 2 : organized activity on behalf of women's rights and interests

Those are mutually exclusive. If you're working for the betterment of women's rights, but not for the betterment of men's rights, you're a female supremacist, not a egalitarian. The mere fact that it's called "feminism" defines that it's not about equality, it's about femininity.

Of course they aren't mutually exclusive. If you support the rights and equality of both men and women, then you have to support the rights of women. Which makes you a feminist. You also have to support the rights of men as well, of course, but that doesn't stop you from being a feminist.

 

[tehweave]

I don't mind a game with a message. I like the concept of feminism, and as long as the game isn't glitchy and has fun gameplay then hell yes I'd play it!

 

[FalloutJack]

Here's the thing. I don't understand feminism anymore. I understand equality of sexes, the breaking of stereotypes, and so on...but I really don't know what it's all for anymore, because it's like one of those things that's become it's OWN stereotype because of the extremists within feminist groups.

It's still for equality of sexes and the breaking of stereotypes and so on.

It's just that the conservatives did a much better job of discrediting it than they have with most other things. "God hates fags"...that had only strictly limited success, it's easy to see through that one.

But "all feminists are lesbians" (because lesbians are always wrong), "all feminists are like nazis" (because Hitler invaded Poland in the name of gender equality), "there's more sexism against men" (because making women equal to men wouldn't, by definition, involve men being equal to women)...that sort of thing really has taken off.

There's also that weird assumption that people become angry (and therefore wrong) when they join a movement devoted to changing something, rather than they join a movement devoted to changing something because they are angry about whatever they want to be changed. And then there's the thing how it's somehow worse to call someone up on acts of prejudice than acts of prejudice itself...though these are hardly issues facing feminism alone.

This is precisely why I hate politics.

 

[BanicRhys]

I would avoid it like the plague.

I have nothing against equality of the sexes but nowadays feminism is just an excuse for women to be bitches to men and other non feminist women.

 

[Lazier Than Thou]

Of course they aren't mutually exclusive. If you support the rights and equality of both men and women, then you have to support the rights of women. Which makes you a feminist. You also have to support the rights of men as well, of course, but that doesn't stop you from being a feminist.

No. If you support the rights of women, but do not support the rights of men(though it isn't necessary to not support the rights of men), you are a feminist. If you support the rights of men and women you are an egalitarian.

asserting, resulting from, or characterized by belief in the equality of all people, especially in political, economic, or social life.

Feminism supports women. Egalitarians support everyone.

 

[Smooth Operator]

Addressing the issues of society would be a nice change of pace, as long as they don't flip to the other side and start stuffing an agenda down our throat.

 

[Thaluikhain]

Of course they aren't mutually exclusive. If you support the rights and equality of both men and women, then you have to support the rights of women. Which makes you a feminist. You also have to support the rights of men as well, of course, but that doesn't stop you from being a feminist.

No. If you support the rights of women, but do not support the rights of men(though it isn't necessary to not support the rights of men), you are a feminist. If you support the rights of men and women you are an egalitarian.

asserting, resulting from, or characterized by belief in the equality of all people, especially in political, economic, or social life.

Feminism supports women. Egalitarians support everyone.

That's what I meant. Women being a part of everyone, supporting women is a part of supporting everyone.

 

[Broken Dreamer]

Your poll question is deceptive. Strong female characters are not a feminist hallmark. Strong characterization is good and effective story telling. If your world is consistent and compelling I'm interested. If you want to take the feminist perspective and push a male negative agenda, alienate or monetize fathers, or create a skewed gender view of female superiority I am not interested.

 

[Lazier Than Thou]

That's what I meant. Women being a part of everyone, supporting women is a part of supporting everyone.

But it's not just supporting women. It's supporting women to the detriment of men. It's taking from men and giving to women. Feminism would be nice if it were only about supporting women and making sure they get their fair shake, but it's not.

Feminism is female supremacy. I quote again.

2 : organized activity on behalf of women's rights and interests

Not man's. Not everyone's. Women's.

 

[MidnightCat]

That's what I meant. Women being a part of everyone, supporting women is a part of supporting everyone.

But it's not just supporting women. It's supporting women to the detriment of men. It's taking from men and giving to women. Feminism would be nice if it were only about supporting women and making sure they get their fair shake, but it's not.

Feminism is female supremacy. I quote again.

2 : organized activity on behalf of women's rights and interests

Not man's. Not everyone's. Women's.

Quoted from the Feminism Wikipedia article:

Feminism is a collection of movements aimed at defining, establishing, and defending equal political, economic, and social rights and equal opportunities for women.

(Emphasis mine.)

Based on this, I would argue that feminism isn't about taking from men and giving to women. It's giving to women everything that men already have.

 

[ltbigjohn]

a majority cast dose not change the orientation of the game, it is how those characters act and the overall attitude of the thing. think the cast of dead or alive beach volley ball.

 

[Thaluikhain]

Feminism is a collection of movements aimed at defining, establishing, and defending equal political, economic, and social rights and equal opportunities for women.

(Emphasis mine.)

Based on this, I would argue that feminism isn't about taking from men and giving to women. It's giving to women everything that men already have.

Exactly.

Yes, feminism annoys lots of men, because it is taking away the position of privilege they hold over women, and people do not give privilege away easily. This is responsible for the massive backlash, equating feminists with hairy-legged lesbian Nazis (the first two being irrelevant, and the last being flat out wrong). It's not taking away anything they would have had to begin with if equality existed.

 

[Rack]

Don't get me wrong, the game isn't "about" feminism. It's just part of the world-building. I'd address it mostly through understatement and playing with the player's expectations. No heavy-handed lectures or anything. Personally, I think "feminism" is a bit of a misnomer: I think it would be more constructive if feminists referred to themselves as a more gender-neutral term like "supporter of equal rights between sexes". I think that would, ironically, be more in the spirit of what feminism stands for.

In any case, feminism is one of the themes I've chosen to explore throughout the game. I'm just wondering what people's initial reactions to that concept are.

On a similar note, how would people react to 75% of the cast being female? Do you think guys will be turned off by it being "too girly"? That whole My Little Pony craze was what really convinced me my game idea might work, but there's a difference between a guilty pleasure kid's show and a game that expects you to take it seriously. Like, what if Mass Effect or Deus Ex had a 75% female cast?

I'd expect a lot of gamers would be put off by an all-female cast, especially if the game was overt about it.

As for myself it would probably bother me if there was no reason why fairy society had formed this way. If fairies had similar gestation rates and birth rates to humans then there's no reason for male roles to become so marginalised. In human society males are expendable as it would take an almost total collapse in male population to affect birth rates, that's why they become soldiers. They become scientists because they need a much more aggressive plan to secure a mate in times of strife.

If amongst fairies males were largely infertile and female gestation was extremely fast then this balance might make sense. Of course you'd probably be making a different statement if that were the case. If there were no underlying cause then it would essentially be feminist propoganda. But realistically you're much less likely to be called out for writing feminist propoganda than for writing something true to life.

 

[Thaluikhain]

I'd expect a lot of gamers would be put off by an all-female cast, especially if the game was overt about it.

That's true, at least amongst male gamers.

As for myself it would probably bother me if there was no reason why fairy society had formed this way. If fairies had similar gestation rates and birth rates to humans then there's no reason for male roles to become so marginalised. In human society males are expendable as it would take an almost total collapse in male population to affect birth rates, that's why they become soldiers. They become scientists because they need a much more aggressive plan to secure a mate in times of strife.

If amongst fairies males were largely infertile and female gestation was extremely fast then this balance might make sense. Of course you'd probably be making a different statement if that were the case. If there were no underlying cause then it would essentially be feminist propoganda. But realistically you're much less likely to be called out for writing feminist propoganda than for writing something true to life.

Hey? How is that "feminist propaganda"? Surely different social structures are an accepted part of speculative fiction, regardless of how well justified they are.

Or do you mean that as soon as you mention gender/feminism, you provoke a massive shitstorm? No argument there.

 

[Lazier Than Thou]

Quoted from the Feminism Wikipedia article:

Feminism is a collection of movements aimed at defining, establishing, and defending equal political, economic, and social rights and equal opportunities for women.

(Emphasis mine.)

Based on this, I would argue that feminism isn't about taking from men and giving to women. It's giving to women everything that men already have.

Really? That's interesting and it raises a question.

What reproductive rights do men have? I know women have the right to choose abortion, adoption, or parenthood. What rights do men have? Do they have any?

By the way, I underlined the most important part of your quote on the definition of Feminism.